Dick Allen

You can say the Sox won the division in 1994 but you can't say they made the playoffs, and it figures that was the season for no playoffs. Thomas and Franco were out of their minds offensively. Julio Franco was one guy who never gets mentioned as to how good he was. In his one year with the White Sox, whatever Frank didn't drive in, including himself, he did. The guy put up a .799 OPS as a 46 year old. The "wrong side of 30" didn't apply to him.

I am jealous of anyone going to Spring Training.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Feb 7, 2014 -> 02:35 PM) If it is 60 and sunny for opening day, Comiskey Park will be rocking. We are getting so used to being so cold, 60 degrees and people will be dropping from heat exhaustion. I was walking around Sunday when it was sunny and not much wind. To me it felt pretty nice. It was 17 degrees. I'm a guy who will not attend a Bears game if the temperature is supposed to be under 50.

The Blue Jays won the trophy for last offseason. That stuff matters about as much at the attendance trophy in Lakeview. It's like giving out awards for movies before you actually see the movies.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 07:11 PM) Ah, and there the change in argument is. You got names, so you moved on to the next non sequitor. The lazy mans argument at its finest. No change in the argument. You said the reason the Sox picked bad players was because of money. Then you mention players they could have signed that in reality cost less money than the bad players they did pick. I am done with you.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 06:55 PM) Also ignored is that is one only one team. Another quick google search gives up Anthony Rizzo and Will Middlebrooks from the 2007 draft of the Red Sox. Another click gives up Joba Chamberlin and Ian Kennedy from the Yankees 2006 draft. Rick Porcello from the Tigers pops up in another search. Also popping up were Camerin Maybin and Andrew Miller... you know the duo used to get that Cabrera guy? Jeff Samardzija was an overslot guy. Rick Ankiel was an over slot guy. JD Drew was an over slot guy. Got enough WARs yet? And you do know why they might have signed above slot, they signed for less than the Sox gave guys like Honel and Broadway and McCollough, or maybe you don't. Samardzia got $250k.the White Sox couldn't recognize talent. It is truly amazing you can't understand that.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 04:18 PM) That first game was on a Monday. 1/2 price tickets for that day? I don't think they did half price nights last year. At least for the Yankees. I still think ultimately the Yankees will either try to void the contract or just eat the money and release him. I don't know who would touch him now except for maybe the Marlins.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 02:08 PM) Britton, Arieta, and Bundy? Ignored. Not ignored. Not difference makers.the 3 combined for a 0.3 WAR in 2013. Bobby is Less talented of the Bundy boys.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 02:55 PM) And he fired Larussa as the manager. But, it seems to me that Hawk had his hand in a good trade for us but I can't remember what it was Ivan Calderon.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:50 PM) One click in google popped this up, for just the Orioles. Ready to change the subject again? http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/sho...erslot-Signings 05 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Brandon Erbe RHP(HS) 3rd round David Hernandez RHP(CC) 16th round 06 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Zach Britton LHP(HS) 3rd round round 07 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Matt Wieters C(Collegiate) 1st round Jake Arrieta RHP(Collegiate) 5th round 08 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Brian Matusz LHP(Collegiate) 1st round Bobby Bundy RHP(HS) 8th round Jesse Beal RHP(HS) 14th round Oliver Drake RHP(Collegiate) 43rd round Weiters was the 5th pick in the draft. Do you really think the other guys make the White Sox better? Try again. All that shows it that paying over slot does not guarantee success.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:31 PM) You've been changing the subject to repackage your failed argument for days now. For the last time, The Sox were last in draft spending intentionally. They purposefully spend less money so as to redirect those funds to the major league team. No matter what you try to change the "point" to, and NONE of the non sequitors you keep trying to deflect to change those basic facts. It doesn't matter what new angles you come up with, or what words to bold in your statements. But feel free to keep trying to turn it into something else again, even after having the last theory proven wrong about draft spending happening because of draft position, even though the Red Sox and Yankees blew that one up. For days now? I posted on this subject yesterday. Oh yeah, again you fail to give any names. And I have given specific names of players who were available at the same money the Sox were willing to pay or even less. You have provided zero examples of how if they wanted to spend more and go over slot, they would have been able to select an over slot guy. Name the over slot guys.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:18 PM) /didn'tworkswitchtopics Exactly the game you are playing. The Yankees system sucks as well BTW. I have provided names. You have not. Why are you trying to change the subject? If you are going to say didn't work switch topics, why can't you provide specific examples as I have done? Seems between the 2 of us, there is only one playing the game you are accusing me of playing, and it isn't me. It is quite amazing asking you to answer the exact same question you refuse to answer is considered changing the topic in your world. LMAO.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:52 PM) Teams like the Red Sox and Yankees were in the top five every year? Examples of players the Sox didn't get because they didn't want to spend the money please. Not all over slot guys panned out either. Give me some names.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:44 PM) So it is just coincidence that the highest spending teams from 2007 to 2011 have the best farm systems today? lol, ok. You do realize you become high spending when you pick in the top 5 every year don't you? There was one team worse than the White Sox. One. And of course when asked to name a few over slot guys that would have propelled the White Sox to at least average, crickets.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:14 PM) You have changed the goalposts about 50 times in the scope of this discussion to make some point that actually sort of works for you. You completely ignored anything that didn't work, including exactly what the former and current GM had to say on this subject, which is better than a couple of anecdotal pieces of made up "evidence" that don't even relate to the original discussion. There are also plenty of times that teams went overslot drafting after the Sox to pick higher ceiling-ed players, which even casts doubt on your latest non sequitor. Name these over slot guys that the White Sox refusal to sign made their collective draft WAR less than half the average major league team. You always ask for examples and say the poster won't provide them. Here is a chance to practice what you preach. I haven't moved the goalposts at all. You are ignoring the White Sox passed on several players who were quickly snatched up and who became stars when they picked their busts. And for some reason think if they had spent more money, that would have automatically made them pick the best players when the evidence shows that to be unrealistic.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:20 PM) I get this whole vibe from Hawk that he doesnt want to talk about Hahn that much. He mentions him, but soxfest was the first time he seemed to willingly be positive about him in a public way Sees him as a changing of the guard, suits-over-jocks in front offices? When Hawk was the GM, he basically fired Dombrowski because Dombrowski didn't have a background as a player. I always wondered what he would think about Hahn considered it was rather obvious he was next in line for several years. I do get the impression that he likes and respects him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 11:56 AM) You are honestly saying that money has nothing to do with a farm system? Speaking of ignoring... You are the one doing all of the ignoring. I have given examples of players selected near the Sox selections that were much better players than the ones the White Sox selected, and they didn't cost more money. We all know KW has thrown money at things on the major league level and it didn't make the team better. You have provided exactly zero examples of if the Sox spent more they automatically draft better. I showed you a couple of times they did spend, and it didn't work out. If spending money was a guarantee that the White Sox would be able to select the best player on the board, I just wonder when all it cost was what they were willing to pay, why they didn't choose a better player? Just answer that question.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:45 AM) No matter how you spin it or change the argument, the point has been made over and over again. The Sox spent less than anyone else on the minor league system than anyone else in baseball, and they did it on purpose, to funnel money to the major league club. How does that prove that KW could have had a top minor league system if he wanted one? His drafts were epically bad. He passed on players who became really good players and paid bad ones the same or more money. Ignore it if you want. I don't care. Everyone else sees it. For the last time, no matter how much money you spend, you still have to spend it on the correct players.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:30 AM) Another determinant of draftee success is minor league instruction. Anyone gonna argue we've been any good at that? Pitchers, perhaps. Definitely not hitters. To me, that is a huge question. Maybe the profile the hitters they draft are all pretty much the same, because most seem to have the same problems. When I go home I will get the term BP used, it's pretty funny, but there are so many White Sox farmhands that have making contact as a huge weakness, it makes you wonder about instruction and development. Are they picking the wrong players, or are they not developing them. Reading BP, you get the sense if they had an Olympic games, White Sox minor leaguers would get a lot of medals with their speed and strength. Playing baseball seems an entirely different matter. Maybe the new hitting coach and what they plan with an organizational offensive philosophy will help. We know it won't hurt.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:09 AM) Exactly what I stated from the beginning is 100% true. The White Sox spent 15% less than any other team in all of baseball from 2007 to 2011. They spent about 1/3 of what the top team spent. Both Hahn and Williams have clearly stated that they took money from development and put it into the major league team. Spin all you like, the facts are the facts. They flat our sacrificed the minors for the majors. If you want to stay in denial, by all means, do so. Wasn't the argument always draft position? Now it is spending. The fact is, if they are picking top 5 every year, they would have spent more. When they did spend, over $5 million for Borchard, the biggest bonus ever at the time I believe, and almost $2.5 million for Josh Fields, those guys sucked. Money wasn't the cure all. THEY NEEDED TO SELECT BETTER PLAYERS. One last time, I gave examples of guys who were available for slot money and were selected around the White Sox picks. There has been one example of going over slot, Porcello vs. Poreda which would have netted a better player. The White Sox paid slot. Current stars signed for slot. The White Sox from 2001-2007 had less than half the cumulative WAR of the average MLB team. KW threw money at the Major League team? Did it make the team better? Why would it have automatically made the minor league system better? And we haven't even mentioned the guy KW actually gave a promotion, and then wound up in jail.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:46 AM) But then you said you weren't talking about the team itself but instead the top picks. I do agree that Williams was exaggerating to some extent, but Reinsdorf really did hamstring him in those situations because he was unwilling to pay overslot for players. A ton of people on the board wanted the Sox to draft Rick Porcello, but because he was a Boras client and was going to go overslot, we knew there was a 0% chance of it happening. Then they took Aaron Poreda - who the f is this? - and the Tigers took Porcello shortly there after. Williams saying "we could have a good minor league system if we wanted" is a little bit of exaggeration, but he also did allocate most of that money to the MLB team. It would have been better had they spent $90 million on the MLB team instead. In hindsight, they probably should have, but they are trying to fix that problem now. Hopefully in 2-4 years, they have a top 10 minor league system and are producing talent all over the place. I am talking entire draft. I don't think Porcello vs. Poreda is the difference between good and bad the past 13 seasons, but it is one example of paying over slot for a better player. Porcello may be really good one day, Poreda never will be, but if you recall, the White Sox were really high on him. He was the first poster child for the not taking the "safe" pick. He made his debut in Milwaukee. I was pretty excited to see him pitch. That didn't last long.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:43 AM) Just curious, where are you getting your numbers? I've done a lot of googling and come up with nothing useful. It is in my Baseball Prospectus.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:25 AM) Show me one team that has done a consistent job of getting the right players. The Red Sox, maybe? But even they only have 4 players since 2000 with 5 or more WAR. The Cardinals have 2. It's not easy to consistently pick players right. Not even the two best teams in the majors have done so. It isn't easy. It is why saying you could have a top farm system if you wanted a top farm system is ridiculous. Thank you for agreeing with me. But if you look at the totals of my chart, the White Sox are way below the average team in drafting WAR. As I mentioned, they haven't had a homegrown hitter but up a 3 WAR since Joe Crede in 2006. Since 2006, the average team has had 7 seasons of homegrown hitters putting up a 3 war. They also didn't have a 2 WAR hitter for them in any draft from 2001-2007. You are saying "show me one team", if everyone is terrible at it, why from 2001-2007 did the White Sox total WAR drafted come out to less than half league average? The league average was 94.7. The White Sox drafted 44.6. The only team worse at drafting players were the Brewers.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 07:41 AM) Just so someone says it again...everyone does realize that doing exercises like this with the MLB Draft...going through and thinking "oh man if only we'd had person x"...is absolutely insane and will completely destroy your mental state, correct? The number of examples of guys who step up in a totally unexpected way after the draft is staggering. The number of highly-touted, highly drafted guys who develop some flaw and then never reach their potential is even higher. If you re-did a draft even 6 months later it would look totally different. MVP's drop to the 2nd/3rd/15th/62nd round when there was such a thing. It happens all the time. At some level...you can in fact come up with blame if you miss on guys consistently over a long period of time...but if you do the statistics there's a good chance you'd get the same results even if you did everything right. Less than 1% of the guys in the draft are all-stars and only a couple percent ever make the big leagues. If you propagate those stats through, just by random chance there will be some teams who have unusual amounts of success and some teams that go years and years with nothing but failure. For a while there were ways to rig the system, with spending overseas and overslot, but even that was no guarantee, it was just slightly weighting the dice. Now the only way to weight the dice better is in scouting and development, for the most part. It just shows the White Sox have consistently missed during this century. I am not putting in guys like Pujols, I am using guys selected right around where the Sox selected and guys who signed for basically slot money. They have been wrong so many times, and the quote that KW could have had a top farm system if he wanted still requires the White Sox to select the correct players, no matter how much they are willing to pay them. They, since 2001, have not show a constitent ability to do that.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 04:36 PM) On top of that, I think they also specifically targeted guys based on "people that we'll be able to trade in the next year" like Broadway and McCullough even if they weren't the highest-rated guys on their board. I think they admitted that one too. Then throw in a couple of talented busts...Fields and Anderson and Poreda, and you've got quite a mess. So let me get this straight, they picked worse players so they could trade them in the next year. Boy that makes a lot of sense. Do you have a link? I am guessing not. And who are all these players they were able to trade in the next year? Don't they have to keep them a year?