Dick Allen

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2008 -> 09:54 AM) As I said in another thread, I think the chances of a Konerko to LAA trade are increasing by the day. I see the Sox probably doing two or three things this offseason that they haven't done yet, from this list: --Trade PK to LAA for Figgins and/or pitching --Trade Dye, possibly to CIN, for pitching --Sign Mark Kotsay to play CF --Acquiring a relatively cheap pitcher with some question marks to compete for the rotation There would be a revolt. Kotsay is Erstad revisited. A good centerfielder several years ago.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 20, 2008 -> 04:59 PM) That's not a very good measure for closers. When used properly, Jenks will almost always come in just for the 9th, or the closing inning. The few times he didn't are aberrant and would skew the data oddly. That measure is really only useful for non-closing relievers. For a closer, the ultimate measure is Save % (not gross total), and then behind that are your normal performance numbers - ERA, WHIP, K/9, etc. If that's the case, Shingo should never have lost his job. He was 19-20 in save opportunities in 2004 and 8-9 in 2005 when he lost the job. I don't think there's a person around who thinks Shingo shouldn't have lost his job as the closer. I also don't think anyone is arguing Jenks' effectiveness to this point. The question is how long will it last?

Ironically, Arn Tellem is one of JR's favorite agents to deal with.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 22, 2008 -> 11:58 AM) Broadway/McCulloch taken back-to-back in the first round (even when you consider where we were drafting) was unacceptable and pathetic. It's really amazing what we've been able to do this decade considering what our farm has produced (So long Duane Shaffer. You are not missed). Ellsbury was available when the Sox drafted the "safe" pick in Broadway. 2004 might have been a bigger disaster. They picked Fields, Gio, Lumsden, Whisler and Lucy in the first 2 rounds passing on Pence and Pedroia. They also selected Fields, Gio and Lumdsen before Huston Street. They have had their shot at good players, but for the longest time had a problem identifying them.

Here's BA's top 10 White Sox prospects in 2006: 1. Ryan Sweeney, of 2. Josh Fields, 3b 3. Lance Broadway, rhp 4. Kyle McCulloch, rhp 5. Charlie Haeger, rhp 6. Aaron Cunningham, of 7. Adam Russell, rhp 8. Lucas Harrell, rhp 9. Matt Long, rhp 10. Chris Carter, 1b Granted, the White Sox weren't loaded with prospects, but prospect rankings mean didley. I don't see any excitement over Broadway or McCullough both first round picks rated #3 and #4 in the Sox system in 2006.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Dec 22, 2008 -> 07:10 AM) Community college for 1 year. Marquez started in the minors at age 19. Considering Garland at Marquez's age had pitched more innings in the major leagues than Marquez had pitched as a professional, I don't think comparing their minor league ERA's would be an accurate measure of what Marquez will do. I hope he's as good as you think. I believe, at least for 2009, its a pipedream.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 10:41 PM) Let's see... Players/Round selected/Minor league ERA and # of seasons in the minors Garland 1st round (3.55 in 5 minor league seasons) Danks 1st round (4.20 in 4 seasons) Floyd 1st round (3.69 in 6 seasons) Masset 8th round (4.57 in 7 minor league seasons) Grilli 24th round (4.51 in 8 seasons) Glover 15th round (4.75 in 12 seasons) And Marquez....... 1st round (supplemental) The 41st player picked in the entire 2004 draft Minor league career ERA... 3.60 in 5 minor league seasons Garland, Danks, Floyd were taken out of HS. Marquez went to college.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 04:55 PM) OMG... I don't BELIEVE you're attempting this comparison. Marquez is a power arm. He has a 94-95mph fastball and a 90-93mph power sinker. As pitchers go... Wes Whisler is a great hitter. Period. I'm not comparing their tools, just their seasons, but Marquez is not a power pitcher. Here's BPs scouting report after his "stellar" 2007. Marquez was the Yankees' supplemental-round pick in the 2004 draft. He throws a sinking fastball and, given his declining strikout rates, seems to want to take the Chien-Ming Wang path to success. It's a grand idea but for two problems: his ground-ball rate took a step back last year, and there's only one Wang. Marquez will be among the team's starting prospects to be considered for the major league pen this spring, but will likely start the season in the Triple-A rotation.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 04:17 PM) You said Marquez's 2007 in AA was nothing special. If being the starting pitcher in the AA Allstar game is nothing special, not to mention his other numbers, then I'd like to know what a decent year in AA would look like. His 2007 was pretty similar to Wes Whisler's 2008. Whisler did his in a AAA bandbox while Marquez was in AA. They both were drafted the same year. Marquez was picked 41st, Whisler 53rd. Whisler was available to any team for 50k this offseason. Every team passed. He's not much of a prospect. There are a lot of players that have had decent years in AA and 2 seasons later weren't contributing at the major league level. He did have a decent year in 2007, but it wasn't eye-poppingly impressive. I'm glad that you and a few others are optimistic about how he will pitch at the major league level in 2009. I hope you are right. I just don't see it. Check what Ian Kennedy did as his teammate in 2007. I don't think you'd trust him with a rotation spot in 2009.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 11:49 AM) well, whatever. You still need to tone down your posts. I wish yours were laughable, but they are more annoying and grating. The ignore button is your friend.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 11:37 AM) He was suggesting that people are throwing Marquez under the bus because they are less familiar with them than if he were a sox prospect.He wasn't saying he deserved slack because Richard was a White Sox draftee. Here's his quote: And even if I hadn't realized I was off base regarding Richard, he's a totally different situation from Marquez anyway. Clayton is a White Sox draftee. And we've had little to no success in developing our OWN pitchers. So at least I would have a somewhat decent arguement in my initial reaction, even if I hadn't changed my mind.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 11:22 AM) I think what is more laughable is your false interpretations of others statements and then ridiculing the argument you made up as laughable. What did I falsely interpret? I copy and pasted his post from Oct. 2.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 10:20 AM) No argument here. No response to my last post? Agreed. How many young starting pitchers has KW acquired who have had an immediate successful impact on the White Sox major league team? Maybe you backed off of your Richard criticism but saying you deserve slack because he was a White Sox draftee and Marquez was not, making it a totally different situation is beyond laughable. I still haven't called Marquez garbage. The biggest slam I've given him is he's more like Lance Broadway than any of the other names mentioned. Of course, that may be considered worse than calling him garbage.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 09:57 AM) To be fair to Richard, we really dont have enough of a sample size on him to dismiss. I would say the same to those who solely focus on his postseason success This was actually jordan4life's post on Oct. 2. I posted it to show just how hypocritical he is slamming people who don't think Marquez will be much help in 2009 for "not giving him a chance."

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 21, 2008 -> 01:28 AM) So I take it you wanted no part of guys like Contreras, Floyd, Marte and Thornton when they were first brought in? Since you love putting so much stock in raw numbers and raw numbers alone. The selective memory around here by some baffles me. And it's the same predictable people every time. Marquez could very well suck ass. Who knows. You haven't seen him. I haven't seen him. Even if we did, it still wouldn't mean s***. We all know how Kenny operates. He, Rick Hahn and their people don't obsess over raw numbers. They scout overall talent/stuff/makeup/I.Q./ect. Is it a perfect formula? Of course not. But he's had more than enough success with these kinds of acquisitions that the guy should at least be given a chance. Not the typical "Well, his minor league numbers last year sucked. So that means he must suck" drivel we go through EVERY year. As a matter of fact, I've been one Jose Contreras' biggest backers on this site. I was one of the few that didn't want him gone even in 2005. I also am a Marte fan, and mentioned Matt Thornton as a potential pick up 3 months before he became a White Sox. I admittedly wasn't a fan of Gavin Floyd and still am not sold. The numbers suggest some things. Marquez has always given up a good amount of hits. He doesn't strike very many out. To suggest he will do things he's never done before during his minor league career on the major league level is crazy. I'm sorry I bring reality into the equation. You're basing everything on a conference call. Remember, KW also said Gio Gonzalez was one of the top 2 left handed pitching prospects in baseball along with Danks. People on this board, since the White Sox dumped him say he sucks. If Minnesota traded a .219 hitter who strikes out all the time and was owed $24 million for 3 players including Marquez and said Marquez would be the 4th starter, your opinion about his ability would be no higher than mine, and maybe lower. Its not up to me to "give him a chance." The White Sox will do that. I hope he does well, I just don't see how anyone can expect itinnings? BTW, you seem to be hypocritical. Why don't you give Clayton Richard a chance? After all he has a lower ERA, WHIP and walk rate and a higher k rate than Marquez in the minor leagues. Here's a quote from you: Selective memory? Richard doesn't suck? An era over 6? A WHIP of 1.55? BAA of over .300? He's garbage. A typical White Sox farmhand. And we've got people saying he should've started game 1 of a playoff series because he pitched a couple of nice innings? Here's scenerio's response to your post: Hey, if the 'typical WhiteSox farmhand' dominated at AA and AAA and got selected for the Olympic Team and the Futures Game, we'd all be very happy. Why is it that people think when a rookie player comes up that they either have to dominate everyone right away or they suck? You seem to be the one with the selective memory. Garbage. Typical White Sox farmhand. So its not the "his minor league numbers suck, so he must suck" you live by. You're opposed to that. But, White Sox farmhand and garbage go together.

KW lucked out. OC needs to fire his agent. From Olney: All but two of the free agents who were offered arbitration turned it down in the hopes of landing multiyear deals elsewhere. But increasingly, it appears that the Jason Variteks and Orlando Cabreras are going to have a difficult time landing deals that match what they might have made in arbitration. "With everything that's going on, and the way the prices are dropping, there's no way I'd give Orlando Cabrera a two-year deal for big money -- not when I have to give up a draft pick," a club official said. "Not a chance."

From Gammons: It has been suggested that the best way to decipher the Red Sox-Mark Teixeira negotiations is to pull out your old turntable, put on "Revolution 9" from the Beatles' "White Album" and play it backward. Then you will know what's been offered and what's been requested. We don't know whether the Angels, were they to lose Teixeira, would turn to Manny Ramirez. We don't know whether Randy Levine, Hank Steinbrenner and the Yankees could win out and buy Ramirez. We don't know whether the Red Sox will decide not to pony up and sign Teixeira or whether there really might be a three-way deal among the White Sox, Angels and Reds that would put Jermaine Dye in Cincinnati, Joey Votto in Anaheim and Chone Figgins in Chicago. JD for Figgins? I don't like it.

I'm thrilled the White Sox didn't sign this stiff.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 20, 2008 -> 02:12 PM) Ripped you? By suggesting that you cherry-picked one year of bad numbers to support your prediction that he would suck in the future, eh?? That's not called ripping... that's called exposing flaws in logic. If Danks was bad in the minors as you suggest, and he wasn't very good his rookie year, and Gavin Floyd has really only had 1 good year, wouldn't it be cherry picking under your definition to think they are now on their way to being anchors of the rotation for years? The biggest jump a pitcher makes isn't from A to AA or AA to AAA or A to AAA, its from wherever to the big leagues. This guy hasn't proven he can get AAA hitters out yet. I'd venture to guess just about everyone predicting his success in the major leagues in 2009 has never seen him pitch. They base everything on KW's conference call. Exactly what would you expect KW to say about someone he just traded for, especially if he's going to be negotiating for starting pitchers? Just remember what KW said when he got Sisco, Aardsma, Masset... Joe Borchard was going to be an impact player as was Willie Harris. He's not going to trade Swisher and say the pitchers he got back are mediocre at best prospects. Nunez is now with his 4th organization. Marquez was sliding on the Yankees prospect list. Flawed logic is suggesting a guy was decent at AA and the lower levels but struggled at AAA but the struggling doesn't matter. Its cherry picking. He'll be a solid 4th or 5th starter for a contending team on the major league level immediately.

This guy is closer to Lance Broadway than John Danks. I wouldn't be surprised if Broadway is better.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 20, 2008 -> 10:01 AM) Danks had around a 5.00 ERA in AA; and a 4.33 ERA in AAA. Do you find it hard to believe that he is performing better than that in the AL? And Jeff Marquez had a 3.65 or lower ERA in 4 of his 5 minor league seasons. I'm not suggesting that Marquez is going to step up and pitch at that level, but why cherry pick his ONE sub-par year to try and suggest that he's not any good. Danks' ERA his rookie year was 5.50. Marquez is nowhere near Danks in ability. You'll be lucky to get that out of him in 2009. If you're going to rip what I have to post, go out on a limb and say Marquez will be just like Danks. I just find it more telling what a guy did in 2008 in AAA rather than what he did in 2007 in AA in projecting what he will do in 2009 if he's even at a higher level. Its just me. Besides, they are two very different styles. I suggest he's not any good because he's 1 of 3 guys traded for what I mentioned before, a strikeout machine who hit .219 and is owed $24 million. You usually don't pick up 3 stars for that.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Dec 20, 2008 -> 09:17 AM) 2008 was the only year he struggled. He had previus years of 3.60 ERA's in AA and high A in 2007 and 2006. Without the injury, he was on course to repeat those numbers in AAA in 08. The fact the sox scouts have been after him for 2 years, and dealing Javy without seemingly a back up plan, leaving the sox without a #4, suggests the sox think he has a solid chance to replace Javy's numbers in 2009. Without the injury? How was he "on course" to repeat those numbers at a higher level? I don't see it. Keep in mind, White Sox scouts are not always correct. To get Danks, they had to give up their best pitching prospect. To get Quentin, they had to give up a pretty good prospect. Those trades worked out great. To get Marquez and a couple of other guys, they had to give up a strikeout machine who is owed $24 million and hit .219. I think it was a great trade. If the Sox get anything from any one of the three, its gravy. I don't understand overlooking AAA stats and relying on AA stats to give you an idea of what a player is going to do at the major league level immediately. Jerry Owens hit .331 in AA in 2005. What has that translated to? The White Sox have had several pitchers do well at AA and that hasn't meant squat. If you look at the guys these particular scouts have reccommended which I have no idea who they are, Danks probably stands out, but I'm sure there are quite a few guys they have liked that haven't amounted to anything. Marquez was sliding on the Yankees prospects chart. He wouldn't have been a top 10 for 2009. His strikeout rate, and I know its not the end all, was brutally low, and should be expected to be lower at a higher level. There just aren't many pitchers in MLB history that have been very successful who have fanned one every 3 innings. He has always given up a lot of hits, and for a guy who supposedly has a great sinker, the ball tends to leave the yard a lot when he's on the mound. If he is in the rotation, the White Sox will not contend.

I'm thinking his 6-7 record in AAA with a 4.69 ERA with a 1.45 WHIP with 2.7 BB/9 innings and 3.7 k/9 innings with 1.3 HR/9 innings all at the AAA level suggest something totally different than what you predict. You think he will do better in the AL than in AAA. I find that hard to believe. He's never pitched more than 155 innings on the minor league level and has pitched over 102 innings twice. I think he may wind up in Masset's old role if he isn't in Charlotte. Maybe someday a 5th starter. He's not nearly the elite prospect Danks was when he was acquired.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 19, 2008 -> 10:54 AM) Jon Garland SUCKED last year. He wasn't just bad. He was terrible. And he's pretty much regressed every season since his career 2005. But he's "proven" because he's been in the league a number of years? I guess scrubs like Jason Marquis are proven because they've been in the league 6-7 years. Some of you guys are going to have to get over this chronic fear of giving young guys a shot. You don't throw money at garbage just because "Well, at least he's been around a while. And he can eat some innings. Anything is better than giving a scrub like Marquez, a guy I've never seen before, a shot." Garland did suck last year. He had a 1.50 WHIP. You're right, give Marquez and his 1.45 WHIP in AAA a shot. He HAS to be better. BTW, as great of prospect as KW calls Marquez, and I see your drinking the Kool-Aid, his minor league WHIP is higher than Garland's career WHIP in the major leagues. I don't really think Marquez is a guy you can count on.

Tex is a nice player, no doubt about it, but his contract if all the reports are true, is crazy. His numbers are nice, but is he really worth more than twice as much per season as Paul Konerko was at the same stage of his career, with a contract twice the length? I can see giving money like that to an ARod, or a Jeter. Those guys have an aura about them. Their value goes far beyond their stats. I just don't see it with Tex. As good as he is, I've never been extra excited about seeing a game because he was playing.