Dick Allen

Also keep in mind, every time the White Sox lose, it can be traced back to Juan Uribe.

Make Mussina throw strikes and he will get lit up.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 10:46 AM) LOL, what fanbase? The Maple Leafs fans? When was the last time that the Jays ranked in the top half of the league in attendance? Players also tend to not get hot when they don't have the at-bats against live pitching. If you believe that 60 at-bats (three weeks) is a reasonable window to deem a "lack of production" (especially after a relatively solid first week), you must not be thinking clearly. That may explain the tone of your post. A couple of things, remember the damage the white flag trade did for the White Sox? There were tumbleweeds in the stands before that happened and it hurt them for several years, even when they did well. The Blue Jays have a decent base. They drew more last season than the White Sox did in 2005 when they won it all. If you read Frank Thomas' current scouting reports, they say that it looks like he's hitting with rollerskates on, and the only pitch he can hit is a change-up. He was 4-35, why wouldn't that warrant a little break?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 09:23 PM) Why don't you read the damn thread. We've pointed out why the Blue Jays were classless ad nauseum. Let me ask you a question since you brought up the Blue Jays actions being unethical. There's been a lot of posts on this board how the White Sox must trade Paul Konerko before his 5 and 10 rights kick in, thus giving him the power to determine where he wants to play. Considering Konerko has done far more for the White Sox than Thomas has ever done with the Blue Jays, wouldn't it be unethical to trade him to a team he doesn't want to be with just days before those rights vest, or does good business or good baseball sense only apply to the White Sox?

Keystone only tastes expensive.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 06:48 AM) 2006 .235BA OBP .235 OPS+ 73 2007 .234BA OBP .284 OPS+ 74 2008 .172BA OBP .232 OPS+ 37 If this belonged to anyone but your dinner party you would be leading the charge on launching him. Those stats are the definition of the suck. People b****ing about him like he blew yesterday's game is beyond ridiculous. He had a good game. Getting hits off Joba Chamberlain is not easy. Carlos Quentin whiffed with the bases loaded and 1 out, and not a peep. Uribe ties the game up earlier, and pops up with 2 out, and its bash Uribe time once again. I wonder who is going to be the whipping boy when Uribe is gone. Will you go back to Greg Walker? Wasn't it his fault according to you when certain players don't hit?

QUOTE (Jimbo's Drinker @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 01:15 AM) Uribe needs to go 2 hits and 2 rbi in a game does suck.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 03:13 PM) It's pretty obvious that they Jays were not going to give him the at-bats, regardless of how he performed as part of a platoon. They were clearly forcing him out so that they wouldn't be on the hook for that $10 million. Maybe, but if he got hot like he was in Oakland, they would have a hard time with their fanbase sitting him. The bad pub would cost them more than $10 million. Its also possible Frank would have go hot and hurt, and his option wouldn't have kicked in, and of course he might not ever have really got hot. We'll see how he does on another team.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 03:46 PM) 2-3 times a week could easily be for the whole year so as to not vest Thomas' option too. If he got 376 PAs this year - meaning 304 more - he could have had his option vest for next year at $10 mill. Thomas asked for his release because he wants his money both for this year and next, and the Blue Jays didn't want to pay next year but obviously were willing to this season. When he found out he would not get his money for next year essentially guaranteed, he wanted out so he could go make more money and get more playing time somewhere else. That seems logical to me. There is no team that will give him a big guarantee next year. He will play off the same contract he played with when he was with Toronto. His only chance at $10 million next year would have been to accept the role offered and perform at a high level forcing the Blue Jays to give him the ABs.

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 11:09 AM) No, you're completely right. Rbi and runs are completely independent of what your teammates do, it really isolates a player's contribution. It's like how wins are the best stat to go by when judging pitchers, because the point of playing is to win games. Totally. The problem with Frank is his foot. His OBP isn't as important considering it takes 3 singles to score him, although on a walk he will push a guy on first to scoring position. The reason I mentioned Sosa is their similar numbers last year and that Sammy couldn't find anyone to pay him $7 million this season. I was using this to show that Frank will find no one to pay him $10 million next year, and regardless of everything else, why is it wrong of Toronto if their motivation was to avoid the option? Its clearly within their rights. Why didn't they just bench him from the start, or why didn't they wait until he was getting closer? He's 4 for his last 35. I think most players in that situation usually get a break. Frank was decent last year , not great. Considering he pulled in over $10 million, I doubt Toronto felt like they got their money's worth. There are more than a few scouts, and scouts could be wrong, who think Frank is on his last legs.

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 11:58 AM) You would take Sosa's line last year plus 170 more abs of .222/.267/.410 production over what Frank did last year? You're serious? Well alrighty then. If it means more homers, more rbi and more runs scored in the same amount of AB, yes I would, but then again I always thought the object when batting was scoring runs.

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 10:52 AM) You're "pretty sure" that if his plate appearances against rhp were doubled, he would suddenly start hitting them better? Even before last year, in 2005 with Baltimore, he hit them to the tune of .196/.266/.341 in 276 abs. Or you're "pretty sure" that if other teams generously conceded to pitching lefties against him every day, he'd hit better? Even though Thomas hit them better last year. (And 2005, for what that's worth.) Sure, everyone's entitled to his own opinion, but if that opinion is based on nothing but a hunch, I don't know why you think anyone else should believe it. Considering Sosa didn't play everyday like Frank did, if he got 170 AB against RHP, he would have scored 10 more runs, hit 5 more homers and had at least 3 more rbi which would equal Frank's production in those categories.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 09:53 AM) You're the only one claiming he was still going to play 2-3 times a week. From what I read, they told him he was going to be benched "indefinitely." Now honestly, when was the last time you heard of a manager telling a player that? He didn't say "Look, Frank, you're really struggling, Stairs is hitting pretty well, I'm going to get him some more ab's for now because we aren't scoring runs." The manager, who also got in a fist fight with Ted Lilly, tells Frank "you're going to be benched, and it could be indefinitely." Are you kidding me? I don't see any other way you could possibly read into the situation. From the ESPN.com story Ricciardi said the Blue Jays offered Thomas "a lesser role playing two or three times a week," but weren't surprised the veteran slugger chose not to accept.

The Blue Jays weren't going to release him. Frank asked for his release.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 10:36 AM) Sure, if you believe that was the actual reasoning behind the move. But the move was designed to prevent the option from vesting, to anger Frank, and to then give the Blue Jays an excuse to release him. They told him he would play 2 or 3 times a week. Seems reasonable when you're hitting .167, you've been a real slow starter, are almost 40, were awful in spring training, are cheating to try to catch up to fastballs. I agree the Blue Jays wouldn't want to pay even the 2007 version of Frank Thomas $10 million in 2009. No team would. But if you really think the goal was to eat $8 million and to piss him off to give them a reason to cut him, I totally disagree.

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 10:32 AM) You can't project that way, because Sosa was used largely as a platoon player. He had almost exactly the same number of abs against lhp as Thomas, and hit them worse (.328/.410/.613 vs Thomas's .336/.431/.633). The only reason his numbers 'look' close is because they often sat him against rhp, who owned him (.222/.267/.410 vs Thomas's .259/.360/.435). He's basically a pure platoon dh, which means he's less valuable than Frank, who kills lefties even more than Sosa and is decent against righties (approximately an .800 ops -- still a productive hitter). I never said Frank would get $10 mil next year, and I don't believe he will. But comparing his hitting to Sosa's is absurd. Everyone has their own opinions. I'd take Sosa's production as a platoon, because even if he was "wned" by right handers I'm pretty sure he would have had as more RBI, HR and R than Frank if he had the same amount of plate appearances. The fact was nobody wanted to pay Sosa $7 million. Nobody will want to pay Frank $10 million for the same thing or worse but 50 more walks.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 09:01 AM) The Jose Contreras/Frank Thomas comparison is a not a good one. Frank produced at a reasonably good level last season, while Jose had an absolutely terrible year. Well if its about last year, Frank hit .223 in April and May combined, so wouldn't it be the correct decison to sit him down until he starts to hit?

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Apr 21, 2008 -> 08:12 PM) You want to start by explaining away the 66 points in obp, or how the season before that is completely irrelevant, or how more frequent steroids testing should affect them both equally? Your choice. That is a RIDICULOUS comparison. Sosa wanted $7 million or $8 million after last season's numbers. You want to talk OBP, what good does OBP mean if you don't score? Sosa had about 170 less plate appearances, hit 5 fewer homers, drove in 3 less runs and scored 10 less times. Project him with Frank's ABs and he scores more runs than Frank, hits more homers and drives in more runs. Frank is beyond station to station. We'll see when Frank is on the market next season exactly what he is offered. I'd bet my house its nowhere near $10 million.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 07:42 AM) If they didn't want that clause in the contract, they shouldn't have agreed to it. Signing a contract and then cutting him so they don't have to worry about fulfilling it is dishonest and may hurt them in the FA market down the road. Why is it dishonest? If Frank didn't want to be subject to it, he could have refused to sign the contract, not received his $9.2 million bonus before he ever played a game for the franchise and went to play somewhere else. The bottom line is Frank didn't have any other team offering him $18.2 million for 2007 and 2008 let alone a $10 million option. Once again, I ask, if Jose Contreras had a clause the vested a $10 million option next year and needed 80 IP, if KW cut him before he reached it, would you think it was wrong? Baseball is a business. If Frank were hitting better, the Blue Jays wouldn't have any excuses to cut him. He's about to turn 40, he's not the hitter he once was, and the scouting reports on him from an article I read were not good. Of course they never are when you are slumping, but 40 year olds slumping is a different animal from a 30 year old or even a 35 year old slumping.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Apr 22, 2008 -> 07:12 AM) Two different concepts here. You are actually talking about comparative worth and if a team is over or under paying for the results. But regardless, fans are paying to watch people play baseball. That is what they come to the ballpark for. That is why they turn on the TV and radio and advertisers are there. To watch someone play baseball, not watching someone else watch a baseball game. So teams pay people to play. Is it worth $8,000,000 to have a guy hit .147? No, you could get a guy at the minimum to do that. but Is it worth $8,000,000 to have a guy slapping backs, patting butts, cheering? No, you can get people to pay to do that. You are really overpaying when you pay anything for those services. Just like your spare tire, a player only earns their money when they are playing, not sitting on the bench at any price. And just because I thought this was kind of funny. Imagine if they actually did sign guys to sit on the bench. Coaches meeting with the GM. "OK, the positions, rotation, and bull pen is set. Now we need four guys for the bench. Thoughts? "OO yes. I thought a couple of those Ultimate Fighter guys would be great. Pitchers would think twice before pitching inside if they knew we had that kind of muscle in the dugout." "I was thinking a couple jockeys. They would make our guys seem so much bigger and more intimidating". "I have a great idea! Mimes! Imagine trying to steal signals if we have a troupe of frickin' mimes in here! LMAO, I love mimes." Players are on the roster, and earn their money, for playing. Not working out. Not taking batting practice, not slapping butts. You and I could do that. They earn their money when they step on the field and compete. That is what the fans and advertisers are paying for. Watching guys play. Some players are actually worth more not playing than playing. Toby Hall for one. The thing about Frank is, it isn't about the playing time, trying to earn his money. Its about the money. If the option had already vested or Toronto said they would pick it up anyway, do you really think he would have made such a scene, and not even shook hands with his teammates after a victory? Frank's been banking on that $10 million. Now if he needs $10 million, he's going to have to play beyond 2009.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Apr 21, 2008 -> 08:21 PM) I wasn't trying to answer that question. I copied your specific post twice now. That is what I am responding to. A player earns his money by playing. How much simpler can I make it? so If you are taking a shower after the game and the other players stare and say, why are you taking a shower? You didn't play! You might not have earned you money. If the trainer has not washed your uniform in two weeks. You might not have earned your money. If your career ending insurance premium is less than a McDonald's cheeseburger, you probably are not earning your money If the manager forgot your name because he hasn't penciled it in for a month, you probably have not earned your money If the equipment manager gives away your jersey number, you probably are not earning your pay. If your uniform has left a shadow on the back of the bench, you are not earning your pay. Anytime a player is not playing they are not earning their money. For whatever reason. Injury, poor play, manager doesn't like guys from Ohio, suspended for arguing balls and strikes, it doesn't matter. If they are not playing, they are not earning their money. If they started hiring sitters, then guys could earn money sitting. But they hire players. So if after this, you are still confused, reread your posts and my replies. But on the other side of the coin, there are players who are playing everyday who aren't earning their money. I know Frank will do better than he is currently., but if he hit .220 with 18 homers next year and his salary was $10 million and Brian Anderson was making $400k to occassionally be a defensive replacement and bat 80 times, if you were running a team, who would you rather pay? Its a lot easier, earning $400k performance-wise than $10 million, especially when you don't play a defensive position. We all complain about players playing and guys who have "earned" chances to play not getting those chances because of what they are paying certain players. And if it was all about his option. So what, it is called an option. If Jose Contreras had a $10 million option that would be vested if he pitched 80 innings this year, if after his first start he was waived, I don't think there would be 1 person on this board crying foul. Jose Contreras has done a heck of a lot more for the White Sox than Frank Thomas ever did for the Blue Jays. Maybe ultimately Frank's demise in Toronto was about the option, but the Blue Jays still had over 300 plate appearances before that kicked in. For them to sit him now tells me at least for the moment his benching was performance-related.

Frank would have to do something like O.J. did not to get his number retired and a statue. Nobody has worn 35 since he left and nobody ever will again. I still believe Frank's statue would have been at 35th and Shields instead of that one they just placed there if he left on less ugly terms, and didn't have the spring training war of words with KW.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Apr 21, 2008 -> 06:17 PM) No you did not and I did not respond to that. What you asked was So you are confused and I explained that for a player to earn his money, he needs to be playing, hence the term player. If you didn't have to actually play to earn your money, the bench players would be dressed more like cheerleaders. Which might not be a bad idea. I'm not saying that Frank should or should not be in the lineup. This applies to any player. Otherwise imagine this scenario back in 2005. You know who should get serious consideration for MVP? Brian Anderson. Here it is the ninth inning, it's been a long night here in Houston, Podsednik is at bat against Brad Lidge. Most bench guys would be sitting back on the bench, but Anderson is there, on the rail. He knows that Pods needs a little extra power, and he's right f***ing there, top step, all the way. All-Star move. Now watch, that ball leaves the bat and Anderson is really cheering. He knows that Pods should be batting and not him, so he's willing that ball out of the stadium. Damn, that is a HoF move right there. Look how he turns to Rowand and start hugging him and they sprint from the dugout, other bench players are still getting off their ass, but Anderson is half way to home and look at that skipping and leaping ability. HoF buddy. That nice clean uniform looks great next to the dirty one that Rowand is wearing. That is why Anderson should be earning $8,000,000 a year. So at Frank's salary, hitting .275, popping a few dozen home runs would be earning his salary. hitting .175, a dozen or two home runs, is not fully earning his salary, but waaay closer than cheerleader. Cheerleaders get paid squat and are usually a lot better looking. Its a cute story, it still doesn't answer the question as to how stinking up the joint earns you at bats and earns you a $10 million option just because you were an MVP 14 years ago. Sammy Sosa hit .252 last year in 412 AB with 21 homers and 92 rbi. Pretty similar to Frank last year. He wanted $7 million or $8 million to play this year. He's not playing. Its not about being a cheerleader, its about a team needing to play its 9 best players at the time to win the game. I have no problem with Frank wanted to play, but sometimes he has to be realistic. How many o 0-fers until you get a break? Frank has been bad lately, so he has to sit. Take some extra hitting, make some adjustments and when you hit again, you play regularly again.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Apr 21, 2008 -> 07:20 AM) Simple. Sitting on the bench versus playing on the field. The people you see sitting on the bench with the ultra-clean uniforms are called coaches and earn considerably less. The people on the field are players. Coaches earn money by sitting on the bench and thinking, players earn money by being on the field and playing. My comment was Frank should want to be on the field, breaking through his slow start, instead of adopting an attitude of fine, pay me to sit on the bench and speed eatin' sunflower seeds, soaking up rays. I've never said there was anything wrong with wanting to play. He hasn't performed and went public saying the organization was trying to screw him out of his option. He's hitting .167. Last year he hit .223 in April and May. If history repeats itself, the Blue Jays may dig themselves too big of hole, plus there's the fact he is a year older, and he has an option with a huge price tag on it. They told him he would play 2 or 3 times a week, and its hard for me to see if he starting knocking the ball around he still would be glued to the bench. Basically he was told he had to perform to play which Frank cannot accept. He feels because he is Frank Thomas he is entitled to be in the line-up no matter how bad he is playing and is entitled to his $10 million option. Considering this board took Joe Crede to be worthless in about 40 spring training ABs, Juan Uribe was deemed unable to play 2B defensively when he committed an error the first or second game, Jose Contreras a guy who only 2 years ago won 17 consecutive decisions has been deemed worthless after his first start, it really is amazing 60 ABs and an $8 million payout with the opportunity to make his own deal should have Frank or his fans upset.

I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but does anyone definitively know if Thomas signs with someone else and reaches his plate appearances figure, does the option still kick in with Toronto on the hook for $10 million next year minus the minimum some other team would give him?