Dick Allen

QUOTE(BaseballNick @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:40 PM) Do you think maybe his numbers are skewed because he was called up prematurely while he was in Philly? Is it possible he needed another year or so in AAA? His biggest success was when he was first brought up. He's been getting worse. Since the beginning of 2005, he makes Jaime Navarro look like Walter Johnson

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:37 PM) Dick man you are killing me in this thread As I have posted before, when you have actually paid to see Gavin Floyd pitch more than once, you don't ever want to do it again.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:32 PM) I really think you're stretching, iamshack. I still think Gavin Floyd has a shot to be the statistical worst pitcher in MLB history. How many more starts do you give him, if he continues to pitch at a 10.00 ERA this season? Say each start from here until september he gives up 6 ER in 5 IP...you just let him keep pitching and pitching? Where do you draw the line? 125 innings isn't enough, so I'm sure 175 won't be enough either. I think Floyd has to be in the rotation until at least 2010 putting up these lousy numbers before you considered removing him.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:33 PM) He gets maybe 5 of them that are that bad, and if he shows no progress, someone else gets a chance around september callup time (no reason to waste a year of arb eligibility from Gio or something like that) According to Ozzie, he has to have a decent start to have more than 1.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:28 PM) No, under my logic, I would rather find out if Floyd can realize his potential during meaningless games in a lost season than to give up on him too early and have his potential wasted. Under your theory, at worst, we lose a few games and Floyd catches on somewhere else and becomes an effective pitcher. Under mine, we lose a few games. Period. If we operate under your parameters, we probably cut our Postseason ace (Contreras) loose before he becomes that. Under mine, we lose a few meaningless games. Big difference. So pitching well in meaningless games means you can count on him when the pressure is on?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:24 PM) Let's get something clear here. There is no difference between a 5.46 ERA and a 7 ERA in the major leagues. None. It's not good enough. Neither will get it done. And as far as making the leap from pitching to a 7 ERA, compared to a 5.46 ERA, it's extremely negligible. The adjustments necessary between a guy that posts a 5.46 ERA and becomes an effective major league starter and those for someone who posts a 7 ERA are pretty much the exact same. As for Jackson, he is very close to turning the corner. He may be the laughing stock now, but in 3 of his last 6 starts, he's given up 1 run in 18 innings. Granted, he has been shelled in some other outings in those last 6 starts. But the logic is that there is not THAT much difference between any major league team. If he can shutout two teams for six innings and give up one run for six innings against another team, he should be able to be an effective pitcher against any other team. He just has to fix what is necessary for him to be more consistent. That's a good point about Jackson. 3 games out of 6 he's pitched well. Floyd actually had 1 inning last start where he didn't give up any runs.

Didn't Jackson also have an injury?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:19 PM) I've already stated that the Phillies did not give Floyd the opportunity he deserved because they were not in a position to. They were consistently fighting for a postseason birth. Perhaps if the Phillies had been in the position the Cubs were with Maddux, the Braves were with Smoltz and Glavine, or the Tigers were with Bonderman, they would have given Floyd more consistent starts and he wouldn't be in the position he is now. But guess what? We are in the position where we can give him consistent starts now and so he should be given the chance finally. As for Floyd's stuff, I'm sorry DA, but scouts have always thought Floyd had good stuff. The Phillies' scouts, our scouts, and scouts from plenty of other organizations. As recently as two months ago, we were told that Floyd had the best stuff of anyone in our minor league system. No disrespect intended, but I believe those people far more than what you claim after seeing him for a grand total of about 15 innings. He got 11 starts for Philadelphia last year so he did get some work. I've seen him for more than 15 innings, and unfornately had to pay to see him pitch his 2 starts this year.

the health insurance premiums were killing Moreno

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) I'm not so much questioning your personal memories as I am your logic. Under your logic, we should have dumped Jose after 04'. Or AT LEAST after the first 8 starts or so of 05'. On the flip side, you would never be able to rid yourself of a pitcher because 125 innings of getting clobbered is not enough for you to judge one by. Its a case by case with me. Floyd doesn't have anything as far as "stuff" that is all that impressive. He can't throw his breaking ball which does have decent movement for strikes. AAA hitters swing, major leaguers don't. His fastball is ordinary and pretty straight. Until this season, his AAA ERA was around 6.00.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:02 PM) Why do you suppose we stuck with Contreras this long? He's been awful for a full year now. He's also 40 years old, not 29 or whatever Mac is. Believe me, I hope Contreras gets it together somehow enough to either be traded without eating his contract or so he can start for us next season. It's become clear that he is only getting worse, not better. After a full year's worth of starts. Not 100 innings over 3 seasons. A full year of consistent starts he has been terrible. But then again, you would have never taken the chance on Contreras in the first place, because in his 170 innings between NY in 04', he posted a 5.5 ERA. Under your theory, we should have cut him loose after 04'. Wrong again. I loved the trade when it happened despite what Baseball Tonight had to say. Jeff Brantley in particular. I never could get the image of Contreras dominating White Sox hitters in September of 2003 out of my mind. I've always been one of his biggest supporters even when a lot of people wanted him gone in 2005 and wanted Burnett in Chicago.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:57 PM) The point is you have to let them get regular starts to actually learn anything. Not sporadic starts from season to season. In Greg Maddux's first 180 innings as a major league starter, he had an ERA of about 5.5. And his last 150 innings were worse than his first 30 innings. In Jeremy Bonderman's first 360 innings, he had an ERA of about 5.3. In John Smoltz's first 64 innings as a starter, his ERA was 5.48. In Tom Glavine's first 245 innings, he had an ERA at about 4.8. In his first 50 innings, his ERA was 5.54. The point is, young pitchers struggle all the time. And while Floyd has had 100 innings, he's never had consistent innings. He needs to be given the rest of the season to take his lumps, figure some things out, and see if he has a future at this. Well, then if you say Floyd is Maddux, or Glavin, or Smoltz then by all means start the rest of the year. I personally find him to be more like a better built Carlos Castillo. Its better off he doesn't take the mound.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:42 PM) We have a far more significant amount of money invested in Mac then we do in Haegar at this point. We are not the Yankees. Or the Red Sox. It is imperative that we try to get the players we have invested money in to try and get the ship righted. Especially considering the talent Mac has shown in the past compared to Haeger. We have a lot more invested in Contreras than Floyd, but you think throwing Floyd out there is a good idea.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:40 PM) But John's ERA is getting worse from where it was 3 months ago...he has undoubtedly been worse in the last few months than he was in the first few. He only appears to be regressing, and yet he is getting older by the day. I suppose we should give up on him. There is an undoubted learning curve for 99% of major league pitchers, and many simply just need to take their lumps and learn before they can be successful. Floyd has always been in a position where he was pitching for a team in contention, which cannot allow him to get consistent starts and take his lumps. Now, he finally has a chance to get those starts without any real disadvantage to his team because it is out of the race anyways. Just let him do it already. 4 starts in 2004 3.49 era 4 starts in 2005 10.04 era 11 starts in 2006 7.29 era 2 starts in 2007 10.04 era Looks like he's not learning much. The curve is going the wrong way As far as Danks, this is predicable. They had some stats on the YES feed from last nights game, and his BAA goes up drastically the more hitters have seen him. He'll have to make some adjustments, but his numbers are still better than I thought they would be. If the Sox were in contention, he'd probably be in Charlotte.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:38 PM) BUt you are arguing that Floyd not haeger should be in the rotation? Or are you saying haeger should be a rp instead of Macdougal? Whichi argument are you making I'm saying Haeger is more deserving of taking Contreras' turn in the rotation than Floyd. I'm not too certain he's actually deserving, just more than Gavin Floyd.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:36 PM) Macdougal is a rp. Haeger is a sp. Im sorry but a SP who gives up 19 bb's in 28 ip, who does not get a lot of K's, is a recipe for disaster. Id rather have a guy who's getting hit hard as hell, then aguy who is giving free passes. What about a guy like Floyd who walks his fair share and gets hit hard.?

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:36 PM) Macdougal is a rp. Haeger is a sp. Im sorry but a SP who gives up 19 bb's in 28 ip, who does not get a lot of K's, is a recipe for disaster. Id rather have a guy who's getting hit hard as hell, then aguy who is giving free passes. Haeger has been used strickly in relief for the White Sox this season.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:34 PM) Seriously, are you related to Haeger or something? This is getting ridiculous. MacDougal has done things in his major league career that Charlie has NEVER come close to doing. I'm responding to the post that Haegar's control problems are why he went back to Charlotte. He's being replaced with a guy who can't throw a strike to save his life this year. Its also not like Floyd is pinpoint.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) His poor starts when he was with Philadelphia came when he was 22 and 23....As if a pitcher never struggled at that age. Look at John Danks last 7 starts or so. His ERA during that span is every bit as poor as Floyd's was in a comparable number of innings with Philadelphia, at darn near the same age during 05' and 06'. I am not claiming that Floyd will turn into a great pitcher, in fact, I don't care much for him either. But it would be irresponsible, with where we are as a team ths year, to not give him the opportunity to show us what he is capable of. There simply is no other alternative. If we had Justin Verlander in AAA being blocked by Floyd, I would be in full agreement with you. But we don't. About 6 weeks ago, I remember you being excited about Floyd's progress in Charlotte like several other posters. You've completely changed your mind after two starts? You don't find that shortsighted and impatient? I have never been excited about Gavin Floyd. I did like the trade because I was of the opinion Garcia would be bad and the money saved would be nice and I am a huge Gio fan. I hoped Floyd would be as good as many thought 3 years ago, but was resigned to the bust most now think he really is. Floyd's ERA isn't getting better from when he was 22 or 23, its going higher. If you want to compare Danks to that, you're doing Jon a big disservice.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:29 PM) Because Haeger has terrible control problems. Atleast Floyd doesnt walk AAA batters. Its pretty simple, if haeger wants to pitch at the MLB level he cant be walking so many batters. And he gets replaced on the roster with MacDougal who is averaging a walk an inning this season. Please.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:24 PM) I say we throw anyone who can't ever improve into a barge and ship them off to some remote island off the Falklands. I'm talking baseball players, football players, any athlete. In fact, let's just throw EVERYONE that we think can NEVER improve into a giant woodchipper. You people are incredible. 100+ innings?!?! That's nothing. Danks has gotten a better shot in 1 year than Gavin has in his career. I'm not saying he WILL improve, but for the love of all that's holy, give him a chance. Gio/Egbert/DLS are all still young. You have a better chance of ruining their confidence than a 24 year old who probably realizes this is his LAST chance. Fine. How come Haeger isn't getting a shot? He has only about 30 innings in his career. If everyone who has been as bad as Floyd has been for as long as Floyd has been get the same opportunities, I would have no problem. Do you really think he would get this chance if KW had acquired him for some minor league garbage?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:19 PM) Why should we know that Floyd cannot pitch in the major leagues but that Wily Mo Pena can play in the major leagues? I cannot believe you are going off of the last 14 innings with this franchise as some sort of indicator that the kid is washed up. Especially considering he pitched against a team his first start hat scored 11 runs off of Jon a few hours before. That is the equivalent of trading for WMP, giving him 30 at bats, and then deciding that he truly did stink and never allowing him to play again. You are not only raking Kenny over the coals for acquiring Floyd, but you were just 3 days ago calling for him to make the exact same kind of deal. Talk about hypocritical. And saving money? That was not a major concern considering that Dye will bring back some compensation as opposed to what was being offered. With Floyd, I am also figuring in his 111 innings with Philadelphia and his career 5.24 ERA in AAA. Saving a couple million on Dye would have been big considering KW is paying the entire bullpen $3.6 million this year. Every dollar saved this year could be used next season. Sandwich picks don't excite me.

QUOTE(BaseballNick @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:19 PM) Garland went 1.1IP and gave up 8ER on 9 hits today. I guess he sucks too huh? This is the best post in history.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:04 PM) You wanted to TRADE for a guy and put him out there and "see if he is worthy." Yet you won't give the guy we ALREADY have that chance. Talk about hypocritical. It's the same damn thing. Potential. The trade for me would have saved money. The added benefit would be to see if the guy you get back can play. Kind of like whats going on with Richar. We should know right now that Floyd cannot pitch in the major leagues.