Dick Allen

QUOTE(BaseballNick @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:04 PM) No, don't you get it? Because his ERA was over 7, he can never, ever turn into a major league pitcher and we need to cut him right now. The cutoff is apparently set at an ERA of 6. Give me a break... 8 homers in 14 innings. A star is born..............

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) Why don't you address the point that he cannot throw the only pitch he is physically capable of throwing instead of taking one sentence out of context and conveniently eliminating the sentences that immediately followed it? As far as I can see, Floyd can do nothing, but you think because KW has you in a trance that he is capable of good things. Haeger was just as good in Charlotte last year as Floyd was this. His minor league stats are just as good. His major league stats are much better, but KW didn't trade a big name and go out on a limb and call him one of the top prospects in baseball. So he's in Charlotte and Floyd is getting ready to get beat up again in Detroit. I'm sure there will be plenty of excuses. He's been in the bullpen for a week or 2 so I'm sure it will be unfair to Gavin to expect much.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:58 PM) The sample size is not enough to show if he is improving or not. For all the people, including yourself, who argued that WMP just needs "everyday at bats" to prove he can hit like he did for the Reds in 05', I don't see how you can say that Floyd has been given a fair shot to show what he is capable of. I never said that. I said put him out there the rest of the year (WMP) and see if he is worthy. You cannot say he has been as awful as Floyd his major league career, and he also has an excuse as he didn't get the minor league time Floyd has had.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:57 PM) How is 6.46 for Garland uncomparable? You also fail to mention in Gavin's first stint in the big leagues he posted a 3.5 era in 30 ip. And how is Halladay not comparable? So he pitched good his first season and then tanked. That seems exactly like what is happening with Gavin, except for he was not given 150 ip in his first season because he was called up later in the year. So if Gavin had pitched 3.5 era for 100 ip in his first season, then tanked the next 2, you would be saying hes fixable? But because he only pitched 30, and then has been tooled around, he is unfixable? Not to mention Gavin has not finished the season, if he puts up a few good outings his era will be around 5-6, exactly like the players I posted. But thanks for creating a 100 ip rule, that seems to have no rhyme or reason. Garland's is not comparable because he was 20 years old at the time. Floyd has a 5.24 career ERA in parts of 4 seasons in AAA. He's not good.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:56 PM) No, I am not joking. The difference in an ERA of 6 and an ERA of 7 is like the difference between hitting .112 or .147. It doesn't matter because it's not close to good enough. You have absolutely no point whatsoever. Pitchers either get the job done or they don't. Historically, anything over 5 is not good enough. Yet there are plenty of pitchers Gavin's age who struggled initially and managed to turn into solid major league pitchers. But Charlie Haeger, 9 months younger, is what he is.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:51 PM) What's the damn difference between an ERA over 6 and an ERA over 7? The fact is, Floyd has not been improving since his debut in 2004 when he gave up 1 run in 7 innings. He's getting worse.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:36 PM) I said Haeger was a knuckleball pitcher whose knuckleball isn't knuckling right now on a team without a catcher who can catch it. There's a difference between the two: Haeger has 1 pitch. A knuckleball. Which isn't dancing right now, and on the few occasions that it does, he cannot make it appear as though it is a strike. If that pitch does not work, he has absolutely no chance of being successful. He is worthless. At least Gavin Floyd has the physical capabilities to actually have success at this level. Granted, he has not. But he's pitched FOURTEEN innings for this organization. There is not even an argument. None. Whatsoever. He's going to get his chance, it's the only prudent course of action. You don't trade for a guy and then not ever give him his chance. There's just no logic to it whatsoever. You said Haeger is what he is. This last post seems to be backing off it. 14 worthless innings for this organization and 111 for the team that drafted him 4th overall, gave him a big bonus and spent money developing him. They saw enough, and if KW hadn't got him in a trade for a big name, 14 innings would be more than enough for him. If the Cubs were floundering like the Sox right now and they had Floyd in the exact same scenerio, everyone here would be laughing wondering what they were thinking.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:56 PM) 100+ innings of sucking at MLB-level baseball? Be fair. Gavin's 5.24 career ERA in AAA suggests he will be a star. KW really pulled a coup getting him.

The White Sox have pretty much owned Clemens this century.

QUOTE(Chopper2Hopper @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:57 PM) 8-0, wow. Wouldn't it have been nice if Clemens retired after walking off the field hurt in the World Series? Like a cockroach, though, he just won't die. If someone wanted to pay me to play some more what they are paying Roger, I'd be right where he is right now.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:54 PM) J Owens CF A Cintron 3B J Thome DH P Konerko 1B A Pierzynski C J Dye RF D Erstad LF J Uribe SS D Richar 2B Sox up 5-0 in the 2nd, bunch of singles and a double from Dye. Thome just knocked in 2 with a single the other way The Yankees are spending just as much as for 4 months of Rocket crap as the Sox will spend on the Count the next 2 seasons.

QUOTE(BaseballNick @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:05 PM) What is it exactly that you're basing this on? Those are just ridiculous statements to make. Floyd has not pitched well at all since being called up, but he's made two starts this year; one against a red-hot Twins team that tore apart our whole pitching staff, and one against the Tigers, who are arguably the best team in baseball, in a game that we actually came back to win. So you are saying he can't pitch against teams the Sox will play 38 times a season. That's scary. What about Gavin's failures before 2007? BTW the only reason the Sox won that game was because Floyd was out of the game. The beleaguered bullpen was able to shut them down, but Gavin had the excuse of pitching against a great team.

I don't know why people think the Sox future is so dire. They have Buerhle, Garland, Danks is one of the greatest, Vazquez is as good as it gets. Jenks is the best closer in the league. Bullpen performance varies year to year so the same guys will be awesome next year. All Gavin Floyd needs is a chance. Josh Fields is so awesome, Crede needs to be non-tendered. Richar is on his way to Cooperstown. Really, KW has very little work to do in the offseason.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 09:38 AM) Riiiiight. 14 innings surely is enough for anybody. Apparently everyone who thinks 14 innings isn't enough, disregarding his previous 111 in the major leagues, thinks 11 is more than enough to judge a guy who is even younger than Floyd and still a baby throwing a knuckler.

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 08:44 AM) Apparently to lots of Sox fans, enough is never enough when it comes to Gavin Floyd. We need someone from a Phillie board to come in here and hold an intervention. It is good to see that Floyd apparently is going to have to show something his one start or this experiment will not continue. I can live with that.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:14 AM) A) You're hanging on Haeger because of Rob Neyer, and you damn well know it. B) Exactly what is the downside to pitching Floyd and seeing what he can do? DA obviously wants him gone now, do you agree? Don't we owe it to ourselves to at least see if the kid will ever amount to anything? You guys claiming that some young pitchers didn't suck for their first several hundred innings and turn out to be great pitchers is flat-out ridiculous. No one here is guaranteeing that he will turn into a stud. But there is no better time to find out than now. And yes, he has the pitches to succeed in this league. He is not Heath Phillips. He has a plus fastball and a plus curveball. C) What if John Danks' first three starts had been like Floyd's last few starts? Would we deem him worthless too? I know he is younger, but 24 and 22 are really not that huge of a difference. Look at Rich Hill. He's 27 and finally putting it togeher. There just is absolutely NO harm whatsoever in letting him pitch out the rest of the season. Allow Egbert and Gio to master AAA before we rush them here, and accept that Haeger is what he is- a kid with no mastery of the knuckleball and on a team without a catcher who can catch it. Funny how Floyd needs the opportunity but Haeger, who has AAA Charlotte 2006 numbers about the same as Floyd's 2007 AAA numbers and who has better major league numbers than Floyd, "is what he is." That's more than a little hypocritical. Floyd blew with Philadelphia, went back to AAA and struggled worse than Haeger struggled in AAA this season. Using your logic, Floyd should have been selling cars by now. (Although I do agree he should be selling cars).

I was looking at the 2001 draft were Floyd went #4. Ironically the Sox took Honel that year and he just retired. The did pass on David Wright and Jeremy Bonderman among others.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 11:00 PM) The irony is delicious. Haeger deserves a shot despite the fact that he got creamed in a league that you constantly rip on everyday. But Haeger gets excuses -- "Knucklers are up and down" -- yup, which is why there's been all of one successful knuckler over the past 15 years. Haeger was actually very good the last month or so in AAA. Maybe his 4th season of AAA he can be as good as Floyd.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:48 PM) He's pitched 14 innings. He more than earned his spot down in Charlotte. Argue minor league numbers all you want but there was no one more deserving than him, period. And he came up and got hammered. Arnie Munoz never got much of an opportunity. Rod Bolton never got much of an opportunity. Scott Ruffcorn's minor league numbers put Floyd's to shame, he got 5 starts and 31 innings total.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:45 PM) After the string he put up in Charlotte back in June/July, yes a couple of us would. Then where was the outrage when Prinz was let go? Floyd has given up 8 homers in 14 innings. His ERA is over 10.00. If it wasn't for KW talking him up, everyone would write off as a AAAA pitcher, considering his career ERA is over 7.00. He has pitched as bad as anyone in a White Sox uniform ever. If he deserves an opportunity, everyone does.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:43 PM) Because Gavin actually earned his spot on the team, Haeger has not. He's given up 8 homers in 14 innings. His ERA is over 10.00. I don't think that spot is earned.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:36 PM) he couldn't be ranked after 05 because he lost his prospect status. And please tell me where I said you are stupid and I am very smart... (btw, thats ^ true ) He also actually was halfway decent in the majors in 2004, but has gone backwards ever since. He's a bust. He would be in Charlotte right now if he were acquired for Lance Broadway, and not 1 person on this board would be saying give him the ball every 5th day for the rest of the season.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:36 PM) he couldn't be ranked after 05 because he lost his prospect status. And please tell me where I said you are stupid and I am very smart... (btw, thats ^ true ) Since Floyd has 125 innings under his belt, why don't we give Haeger the same opportunity? Why tax the other pitchers. Let them rotate some time off and save themselves for next year. Don't we have to see what we have in him too? While were at it, lets bring up the entire Knights pitching staff.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:29 PM) I see my point flew right over your head... I'm pretty stupid and you are very smart, so that's easy to do, but how about some raw numbers. Since your BA rankings of Floyd stop at 2005, lets look at his major league numbers from 2005 until today. 94.2 innings, 125 hits 97 runs 27 homeruns allowed 53 walks 59 strikeouts. He blows.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:28 PM) One down side to the "It's a lousy season, see what they can do" and especially with pitchers. is it is very tough to "show what you can do", when everyone sucks around you. Keep that in perspective. I understand, but with Floyd that really doesn't apply. Defense doesn't really matter. The only one's who really need a glove are the fans in the bleachers.