iamshack

I just disagree with you guys...if I was a GM for a contending team and needed a LH bat NOW, I don't think the money is all that frightening. You're looking at what, $22-23 million over the next year and a half with some pretty solid historical evidence that you're going to get 60ish homers and 140-150 rbi out of him during that timeframe? I don't see why that is so repellent for a contending team.

We probably have to pay him an extra $200k or some s*** if he wins it...I hope he doesn't

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 07:48 PM) This is a bad performance He was just as bad when he showed up at Fenway after the marathon bombings

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 03:33 PM) Because it's Leyland's own pitcher and he doesn't want to waste his arm in an exhibition. That and he's only on 3 days rest

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 03:01 PM) We've evolved all sorts of faulty mental processes that lead to illogical conclusions and judgements. We're great at recognizing imagined patterns that aren't actually there. That doesn't mean we should accept our cognitive biases instead of working to become aware of them and correct them. Martin was walking back from the store, not wandering aimlessly. Going for a stroll around a neighborhood should also not be viewed as suspicious. There was a light rain, which is why he had his hood up. It's not like we have to reach for a case where this line of reasoning that says it was suspicious was 100% stupid, wrong and tragic. there is nothing wrong with an adult eating skittles and wearing hoodies. Hoodies aren't generally associated with children AFAIK. We don't live in an ideal world, but that doesn't mean we need to just accept the flaws that there are. It's easy for a bunch of white guys to say "oh well, maybe black people just shouldn't wear hoodies" since it doesn't effect them. The argument I am making is that "faulty mental processes" and "cognitive biases" do not equate to racism. And no, we don't have to accept the flaws. I couldn't agree more. But we don't have to chance our own life or safety either based on the assumption that the other 6 billion idiots inheriting this planet are going to behave as we would. Cheers....I always enjoy debating with you.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:56 PM) I can't help but think of all the times that I went outside of my parents' house to talk on the phone so as to get privacy. I would always walk around aimlessly because I'm a fidgety person. I wonder how suspicious I looked. It's one thing to walk around your parents' house (where you presumably lived and were known to have) and to walk around a house where you weren't known particularly well. And with semi-concealing clothing. By no means am I saying it is right that people would automatically jump to the conclusion that such a person is one to be suspicious of, but I've learned that any time I can do something (within reason) to take more control of the situation, rather than assume someone I don't know is going to act in a reasonable manner, I do.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:42 PM) Suspicion based on dress is 100% cultural. Nothing biologically tells you to be fearful of a hooded sweatshirt. It's only a uniform if you're black. I'd also like to point out that suspicious actions keep getting brought up, but that's not relevant to this topic. Trayvon Martin was walking home from the store, talking on the phone and wearing a hoodie. He wasn't doing any suspicious. Suspicion based on actions are much more legitimate, though those can be influenced by stereotypes as well. Just this last weekend I called 911 on a white teen in front of my house, but it was because he was caving in the door of his girlfriend's car, not because of the way he was dressed and that I didn't recognize him. I understand that. But you know what is biological, smarty pants? Making decisions based on past experiences. It's called learning. If I see someone wearing concealing clothing (because they actually wanted to conceal their identity and not make a fashion statement) committing a crime, it arouses my suspicions a bit when I see someone wearing this "uniform." We evolved in this manner because those are the folks that managed to live, while the idiots who didn't learn, died. As for your point about Martin, he was wearing his hood up over his head, was he not? The act of wearing his hood up and walking around with no apparent purpose other than to talk on his phone was enough to arouse the suspicions of Zimmerman. Now anyone who has been reading this thread knows darn well where I stand on this, but just as we have gone back and forth on "this would have never happened had Zimmerman not approached Martin," I wonder if the same can be said about Martin. Would any of this have happened had Martin not been wearing his hood up and walking back and forth with no apparent purpose? Before you respond by saying "there is nothing wrong with a kid eating skittles and wearing a hoodie" (choosing your words deliberately to focus on things generally associated with children), I'll just say that no, in an ideal world, there is nothing wrong with wearing a hooded sweatshirt with the hood over your head. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world, and I remember my mother telling me as a kid not to go running around the neighborhood wearing all black at night because it would appear that I was up to no good. So I didn't.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:37 PM) If they're traded this year, it's probably going to happen some time in the next 15 days. but not necessarily (I just wanted to be a dork)

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:33 PM) I'm going to say it again, but it's only "associated with criminal behavior" for non-whites. Pragmatically, is this something non-whites have to consider? Unfortunately, yes. That doesn't mean we should accept it as an unchangeable fact of nature, though. It's like blaming a girl who was wearing a skirt for getting raped. No, f*** that, blame the rapist and blame the people clinging to racial stereotypes that view black men as criminals. That's simply not true. There are plenty of white teenagers that arouse my spidey senses because of the way they act and dress. It's part of our biological makeup, SS, it's not always racism.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:32 PM) I would if I was black. How's that for an answer? I just gave an example in which we all do it to some extent. It's not fair, but we do it...and I'd go out of my f***ing way to do it if I knew it was going to get me cross looks in public. Is it fair that I can't wear shorts and a hockey jersey to work or they'd look at me like a scumbag and profile me as such? Nope. Clothing doesn't make me who I am, but I know how I'd get looked at for doing it, so I don't. Well would you be shocked if you decided to wear a black ski mask at night if someone looked at you suspiciously, even if it was cold as hell outside?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:28 PM) Black men should tailor their clothing choices based on racist stereotypes of them? No, but wouldn't you say it's fair that common sense says not to wear things that are generally associated with criminal behavior?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:20 PM) It also breeds distrust and resentment of the police and the justice system in general and perpetuates the racial stereotypes. edit: and leads to more false convictions, more harassment, more incarceration and continued poverty issues Yeah, I didn't state that because I felt it was even more obvious than what I pointed out as obvious.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:15 PM) But again, it's only associated with criminal behavior for certain people. I wear hoodies all the time. So does my wife, my brothers, my mom, but nobody would profile them as criminals based on that. Nobody associates Bill Bilicheck with criminal behavior because of his hoodie. Nobody would write a column in a national newspaper talking about the "uniform" they're wearing. Well, at the risk of sounding racist, in my limited observation, I see more of those certain people wearing them with the hood over their head and/or face then your typical suburban soccer mom. Bill Belichik wears his while he is coaching football, and not walking down the street on his phone. Even still, he actually is teased about it quite a bit. I agree with you that people see the person wearing the piece of clothing and allow it to influence their opinion of them, but it isn't entirely because of the person wearing it. It's how they wear it, where they wear it, when they wear it, AND, the associations that already existed prior to when that group of certain people really began wearing it as a fashion statement.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 02:12 PM) I'm not saying that he can't, I'm saying that his judgement was horrible and that he shouldn't have. I'd argue that, when aggregated, it does hurt people. If many young black men are unfairly profiled as criminals, reported to the police and questioned, that is going to have an effect. Well the obvious problem with that is that it is pulling the police away from genuine criminals.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 01:55 PM) I'm not even saying they're dog-whistling their racism here. I'm saying they are explicitly saying that a young black male in a hoodie is in a "uniform." That "uniform" is supposedly the uniform of a criminal thug. This editorial said it, Geraldo said it, plenty of people have said it. Young black men in "uniform" should be viewed suspiciously because they're young black men wearing a hoodie. But when does this sort of talk apply to white people? How many white people out for a run or a walk get the police called on them because they're suspicious? How much talk has focused on, say, the local high school track team's thug uniform? Hoodies are everywhere, worn by people of all races and ages and genders, but it's a "uniform" only for black men. I wouldn't point to police training as racially neutral, either. Our justice system has a pretty terrible track record. Well, I agree with much of what you are saying. However, the hooded sweatshirt was associated with criminals and criminal behavior well before African American males began wearing it as a fashion statement. I think part of the culture in poor areas or ghettos (regardless of what the ethnicity or race of the people inhabiting them) is to adopt part of the identity of criminals, because they are sometimes admired due to the fact that police or establishment is universally loathed or despised. If that is the case, the reason the "uniform" is suspicious is not entirely due to the person wearing it, but because it was long associated with criminals or criminal behavior in the first place.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 01:46 PM) I'm sorry, but you're still obscuring things here to justify broad racial profiling. The description for two of the crimes was "black man/men." That's it. This neighborhood was pretty mixed and about 25% black IIRC, so it isn't unusual for a black person to be there. He was black and wearing a hoodie while walking down the sidewalk on the phone. That's enough, according to a police officer, to raise suspicion and warrant questioning by the police. If you want to know why a lot of minority communities don't have a lot of trust in the police, it's because of stuff like this. These same calls and investigations and harassment just do not happen to white people the way they do to others. But that is a function of the people calling in suspicious behavior, is it not? Are the police supposed to just guess which one of the callers is racist and which is not?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 01:43 PM) But a white person wearing a hoodie isn't going to be viewed as suspicious. It's only when you add in race that it becomes a "uniform" worthy of suspicion. I don't even have to think twice about throwing on a hoodie if I'm going to go for a run, that I might be profiled and reported to the police, or, god forbid, chased down by an armed wanna-be cop. That's not the reality for a person of color. That is something they have to think about. There's a reason why there's such a thing as "the talk." So are you arguing that the "hoodie" is just another way for racists to be openly racist without having to take accountability for it? If you go for a run in your hoodie, I don't think many people would find you suspicious. If however, you were loitering or lurking around with no apparent purpose for an extended period of time in your hoodie, I think I would be just as suspicious of you as I would a black person in the same circumstances. You are probably correct in that there is some large component of white people that are using the hoodie or "uniform" as a way to continue being openly racist...but to assume that without any other evidence is unfair IMO, especially in the instance of the police. They are trained to identify suspicious people, and someone wearing clothing which partially conceals their identity is definitely suspicious behavior according to their training. Absent some other evidence of profiling or racism, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that they are profiling.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 01:25 PM) I don't see why I wouldn't be. I've not been shy about criticizing gender bias and sexism in the past. edit: Cohen has had racist columns going back decades edit2: the explicitly racist parts are the stuff like "a uniform we all recognize." Young black male wearing a hoodie=thug/criminal uniform is pretty explicitly racist, or if that's too strong of a charge, a terrible racial stereotype that pervades our society and leads to all sorts of terrible outcomes. One thing people have to remember, which Milk was trying to point out, is that it isn't racism to suspect young black males for wearing hoodies because they are black, but rather, because they happen to be wearing an article of clothing that is often chosen by criminals because of its ability to hide or conceal one's appearance. Now I am sure that if you combine that with the fact that the person wearing the article of clothing is black, for many people that adds to the suspicion (rightfully unfair), but suspicion because of the article of clothing itself does not equate to racism.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 01:27 PM) But the article is entirely faulty as many would argue that crime stats are inherently biased due to the fact that whether you are arrested/charged/convicted can be based on race/sex. And when you look at the stats, youll notice the only race which is a suspect more than it is arrested is (outside of 1 "other felony sex crimes")... Black people. Oh society, how you create a system where the systematic racism is then used as a reason for why we should be more suspicious of that race. Good show, good show. I really think in these instances this is more of an example of ignorance of crime and crime statistics than ignorance because he is racist. At least more often than not.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 01:25 PM) I don't see why I wouldn't be. I've not been shy about criticizing gender bias and sexism in the past. edit: Cohen has had racist columns going back decades Ok, I was just checking.

I didn't find the article to be racist. I am not sure that I agree with him, but I didn't find it racist. SS, let me ask you this...as to the question of "some large disproportionate percentage of crimes are committed by black males" and therefore "we must profile black males" being racist, what if it was "some large disproportionate amount of crimes are committed by women" and therefore "we must profile women." Would you be as offended by that because of what you perceive to be gender bias or sexism as you are for what you perceive to be racism with the "black males" example?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 12:48 PM) If I had access to Youtube at work, I'd totally link to Tupac's "Me Against the World." Sort of trying to bring humor to a tense situation, but having dated a "black" (opposite situation of lost with a black father, white mother) woman, I have atleast been around that type of world before too. I still have no personal reference to what it's actually like though. The last girl I dated before the current one was black. She was very sweet and my mother met her and loved her. She still asks about her and talks about her. On the other hand, my stepdad was never a fan of the concept from the get go. I don't know if there was anything the girl could have even done to make him feel comfortable about it. He never met her, but I am not sure he ever cared to.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 12:38 PM) Yeah, it's just different. Yes I have a degree Yes I had good grades in high school and college even though I was poor growing up and my dad was unemployed a lot Yes I have good credit Yes I have a son and am actually with him all the time No I do not have a criminal record No this all isn't really as unusual even though I know you assumed at least half were the opposite when you looked at me (unless I was wearing a suit and tie) I'm not even saying I'm bitter or jaded about all this, just saying, the world does not look the same to me as it does to you. Honestly, I understand what you are saying, and I admit I will never see the world the same as you, because I only have my own perspective. I can try and empathize, but I will never truly know. However, other than in the case where I actually see outright racism occurring, usually I have found it best to just ignore the whole concept entirely. I try to view people of other races just as I view myself. I work with a black female attorney and an asian female attorney on a daily basis. We work closely with a white male attorney from Charleston, SC. We all get along fabulously and I don't think race or racial stereotypes have ever been mentioned, despite the very loose and humorous nature we all have with one another. Generally I try to look at people as good people or people I prefer not to surround myself with. I don't really feel the need to parse it out anymore than that.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 07:54 AM) He's been in a long power drought, over 70 at bats since his last homer. He's hitting like .225 on the season, Adam Dunn territory. Yeah, and Adam's power numbers are better as well. The grass is always greener.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 05:33 PM) George Zimmerman being worried about vigilantes is like Derrick Rose questioning why it's taking someone so long to come back from an injury.