iamshack

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:37 PM) I'm not saying that at all. I say don't trade him. He's going to be a nice hitter, quite possibly a monster. Still learning, he's on pace right now for 30 homers. The Sox need all the offense they can get, and he's cost controlled for the foreseeable future. The correct question is what is his trade value if most scouts believe what you think? Or are you just smarter than everyone else? I'm sure there are some teams that see what you see. I'd trade him to them.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:37 PM) His Fizzle went away a couple years ago, now he's rebuilding it because the team has finally stuck with him and given him playing time. So it's the Org's fault now? What, are you related to him or something?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) The real answer of course is that when teams are taking on guys like Viciedo at the deadline, they're taking them on because they're losing, and they're giving you 1 year or 2 year rentals. And giving up Viciedo for a guy who would be a free agent this year, for a team that just cut $25 million in salary, would be incredibly terrible planning. You open up a LF hole when you are finally filling some of your holes with cheap talent. Not true. If he's such an incredible prospect, all teams should be dying to have him. I wanted to trade him before the season even started, when all teams had hope.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) Then wouldn't other teams feel the same way and negotiate accordingly? It's either one or the other, DA. He's either this great prospect with all these comparables, or he is a prospect who's starting to fizzle out a bit. You can't have it both ways.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:32 PM) Because the result is the same week after week. He's the same player he was 2 years ago, all he does is swings as hard as he f***ing can.......You're saying he's not worth all that much but expect a big return. Talk about nonsense. Hah...you're saying he's going to be an incredible player but has no trade value. I'm saying he should have trade value, if most of the scouts believe what you and Balta and countless others are saying.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:29 PM) Same results week after week. Didn't show any tendency towards improving. He's 23 but so the f*** what, what does that have anything to do with it? Sorry to be showing you examples of guys who weren't worldbeaters as 23 year olds who became good players. Another you might want to look at is Sammy Sosa, who improved before he started juicing. Again, I'm not saying Dayan isn't going to improve or be a solid player. I'm saying he's not going to ever fulfill the expectations you guys have for him. It's a big distinction that many of you seem too stubborn to accept.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:29 PM) This is exactly what I said would happen going in to this season, except for the hot streak. Viciedo would struggle more than we'd want, but we have to stick with him, because we're not going to get anything near his value back in a trade, and what he can bring to a lineup if you really develop him is enormous. And why can we not get anything back in trade? Why?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) It doesn't happen as quickly as we all want it to, but it does happen. Much, much more often, it doesn't happen at all.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) Except for that enormous hot streak, where the result was the exact opposite for about 4 weeks but we're allowed to forget that. The hot streaks are great...where am I saying he's a terrible player?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:25 PM) Carlos Lee walked 13 times in about 500 plate appearances as a 23 year old. Who the f*** cares

You guys can keep making up horses*** about how he is showing such a vast improvement...honestly, I hope you're right...but the result is the same week after week after week after week....

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:22 PM) Funny thing to say about a guy who hits the majority of his homers on offspeed pitches Because they are usually the only ones he can actually catch up to?

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:20 PM) I have seen him make adjustments?? What you're seeing today is the result of an adjustment. He's trying to catch on to the inside fastball and it's hurting his ability to hit the outside fastball. He's also getting more patient, far more selective than he was just a couple months ago. I think expectations are too high for how quickly he should adjust. He's been very productive, just learn to love it. Yes, his 11 walks are a real indicator of how selective he has become. Keep in mind no one is saying we should guillotine him. We're saying trade him.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:18 PM) Actually, the ball that got him out the first time he came up, the up and in fastball killed him. That shows up in the fangraphs version where he was a negative value player against the fastball despite being only a part time player. He's also gotten quite a bit better against the cutter. His weakness has actually been against the 2 seamer...the pitch with sink on it. Which probably means that he's pushing people off of the fastball and onto different ways of getting him out....which is why everyone's working on the "Get him out low and away" like we're seeing the Yankees doing right now, because he's getting to the balls he used to get beat on inside. He's not getting to pitches on the outer half either. Face it, he swings as hard as he f***ing can. God knows if he picks up the spin on any of these pitches.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:14 PM) At what point can we stop citing his age as a positive? When he's 28

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:12 PM) No, you're not allowed to. What 23 year olds do in their first 3 months as full time players define their entire careers. Except he did this two years ago as a 21 year old as well. He is the EXACT same hitter he was then.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) Dayan Viciedo was able to have success in the Cuban leagues at age what, 16? Because he's incredibly gifted physically. Doesn't guarantee he's going to make the adjustments he needs to be a great MLB player, which is what Marty and I have been arguing. He is showing very little ability to adjust his approach, regardless of MLB experience. This is the biggest indicator there is when evaluating very good young hitters.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 03:09 PM) Ok, Paul Konerko probably played baseball in high school. That counts too under that silly of a standard. After all, Viciedo was playing baseball at age 15! You are smarter than this. Are you going to argue that the professional Cuban league is the same as high school ball in the US?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 03:07 PM) 12. How many motherf***ing 23 year olds can be legit contributors without any struggles? I don't mind struggles. He's not showing a capacity to improve his weaknesses...those same weaknesses which will relegate him to being Russell Branyon.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 03:06 PM) When Paul Konerko was 23 he didn't have this good of an approach. And, when Paul Konerko was 23, he had 2232 minor league PA's under his belt. Viciedo had 1299. Viciedo has Cuban experience. That counts as minor league experience.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 03:02 PM) Walks per year: 2009: 23 (AA) 2010: 13 (AAA-Big league bench) 2011: 54 Done. I've shown you that he can. I'm talking about the MLB level and you damn-well know it. How many motherf***ing walks does he have this year?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 03:01 PM) Just like your boy Alex Rios did as a 27 year old in 2009 and a 29 year old in 2011? I never made excuses for him. All I said was that given the enormous salary we owed him, it was in our best interests to continue playing him. And honestly, Alex and Tank are such similar players with similar faults, that is a perfect analogy.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:59 PM) You say that as though it's not true. It's an invalid excuse. Show me that you can f***ing learn and improve.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 1, 2012 -> 02:58 PM) Tank is just having awful at-bats again. But he's only 23!!!

Just keep swinging as hard as you can, Dayan.