Vance Law

QUOTE(bigruss22 @ Nov 4, 2007 -> 05:35 PM) Wow these guys are idiots. I'd say there is exactly the same ratio of biased and ridiculous trade suggestions to reasonable trade suggestions that we have here at Soxtalk.

QUOTE(gosox41 @ Nov 4, 2007 -> 04:11 PM) If Crede is traded, who plays LF? Bob Hard to tell as there are a million different possibilities, but you could have Damon in left if we still get one of the free agent centerfielders. If we had Damon in left, and Hunter/Rowand/Cameron in center, I'd rather see us keep Uribe. Lowish cost, strong defense which helps especially with Fields at 3rd, no long term commitment. We could go after Furcal as a FA after 08. Damon compares favorably to Furcal as a hitter and a lead-off man in my opinion. You can expect a few more steals from Furcal (though Damon had 27 to Furcal's 25 last year) but Damon has an edge in OBP (slightly for their careers, but even moreso in recent years) and clearly outslugs him. And also has 2 years left on his contract. As I stated previously, I don't see the point in a trade of Garland to get back Furcal. We get a lead off type, but for only one year and at the price of sacrificing a lot in pitching. In other words- getting high priced ss lead off man for only one year is a move with the intent of competing in 08, while going with a rotation that includes both Danks and Floyd is not.

QUOTE(fathom @ Nov 4, 2007 -> 02:16 PM) You have to keep in mind that KW foolishly has no plans to rebuild. Thus, if he can get major league caliber players for someone like Crede, who he knows won't be with this franchise after this year, he'll jump at a trade. ...and from the Yankees perspective? to save a few measly million bucks on Damon while Crede, at present, is a huge question mark?

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 10:41 PM) Depending if he wants a two year deal, I wouldn't mind bringing back Lofton for a year. I'd rather sign Lofton for a year and trade Crede for something else, than trade Crede for Damon and his hefty 2 year contract. I'd prefer Burrell in LF if possible, but I'd rather have Lofton for a year than Crisp or Damon for two. I've mentioned Lofton before and people suggested that he was not on good terms with the Sox organization and it would be unlikely we'd ever sign him again. Vaguely related, people obviously b**** and moan about every single thing that KW does, but how about some props to Kenny for not signing Juan Pierre, Sarge Jr., or Dave gd Roberts to those atrocious deals.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 4, 2007 -> 02:06 PM) Crede to NY for an OF makes too much sense for something not to get done. To me, what still doesn't make sense is, the Yankees risking the deal now, not knowing whether or not Crede can actually play. Also, the Sox making the trade now, while Crede's ability to play and play well are a question mark, at Crede's seemingly lowest possible trade value.

QUOTE(SoxPride56 @ Nov 4, 2007 -> 12:25 PM) why not a trade for Furcal... I know there have been people here talking about Furcal. That would leave you with a lineup of: Damon Furcal Thome Konerko Dye AJ Hunter/ Rowand Fields Richar That's about an $80 million starting lineup.

QUOTE(fathom @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 08:07 PM) But since he can't bunt or run well, he'd be a cancer on the team. I'd say his brutal defense is clearly the biggest downside, along with his paycheck. At the plate, he brings a lot.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 02:09 PM) I'd rather focus on OBP. People say this all the time, but who are these players? Suggest some names that the Sox could get. Virtually all of them are power hitters and/or guys who hit for a great average. Expensive players in free agency, players that cost a lot in a trade. There aren't tons and tons of Youkilis' around- guys who are solid, unspectacular hitters with GREAT plate discipline. Who among the free agents is a high obp guy? I see these who are at least above average: Bonds ARODR Posada Sean Casey Luis Gonzalez D'Angelo Jimenez Kenny Lofton Mark Loretta Trot Nixon (used to be) Mike Piazza (used to be) Rowand (in his good years) Great players who are too expensive and we're not going to get. Rowand. And aging, defensively challenged and part time players who are not clearly an upgrade over our guys other than perhaps Loretta at 2B.

If it were between Uribe's 1 year and signing some deal for Eckstein, I'll take Uribe and hope. Furcal would be the best fit among those who are considered potential obvious trade options. Though, I am struggling to see the point of upgrading with an expensive ss for one year in hopes of competing if that means trading Garland and going with Danks plus the next AAA guy. People like to be fantasy GM and try to make all these deals in their head to get the offense all nice and shiny with all the right projected stats and lay out their hopeful lineup 1 through 9 and say to themselves and others "now that looks not too bad." " I could live with this lineup after all of these fantasy deals I've made in my head." and forget that the only gd reason we won a World Series was because we had the best pitching in the league. The best pitching in the post season. Furcal is great for solving a couple problems for next year, but if it creates another potentially big one by chucking up Floyd and Danks 40% of the time, we may well be farting into our own mouths.

QUOTE(rockren @ Nov 2, 2007 -> 03:32 PM) Thank you. It's nothing against Hunter, but he isn't worth that much money long term. Maybe, but you know who else isn't worth the money long term? Virtually every single free agent ever, always, who's decent and is not coming off of an injury. The highest bidder always pays more than the player's worth. Show me one, no, how about lots and lots of recent contracts where a good free agent (who wasn't injured or legally insane or a drug addict) signed with a new team for a longish term deal and it was reasonable or the guy was "worth it." Or show me one. Sure, you can find some under-the-radar guys who turn out to be valuable. But Hunter, as an all-star, a gold-glover, a 30 home run guy, is not that. As overpaying goes though, I'd rather overpay for someone who is good-to-great at a premium defensive position, and who's valuable with the bat.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 06:56 PM) That would be great, expect then what? Granted, I don't have high hopes for 2008, but if the Sox are in fact in playoff contention near the deadline, what do you do if you move Joe. Don't move Joe. The team is in contention. QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 06:56 PM) While that wouldn't be bad enough, then what do you do in LF? Too bad the Sox really have no one on the cusp of making an impact in AAA... It is certainly conceivable to me that one or more of Sweeney/Anderson/Owens hits well next year in AAA. Also, who were your other outfielders on the team already in 2008? Mackowiak's option was declined by San Diego today.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 07:04 PM) ....... Tadahito Iguchi....... no draft picks

QUOTE(Texsox @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 05:07 PM) I'm not so convinved that Crede doesn't have value. IIRC Maggs didn't have value, couldn't even hop, skip, or trot, and found a sweet contract in Detroit. I just had a thought, could we hire Boras to work trades for us Someone else may know the details better, but I believe there was a clause in the contract that said if he hit the DL for a certain number of games with the same injury, they could void the contract, or he wouldn't get certain monetary incentives. edited: Here it is. He made just $6 million in 05, and..... Tigers may void contract after 2005 if Ordonez spends 25 or more days on disabled list in 2005 with recurrence of pre-existing left knee injury

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 02:06 PM) This is the White Sox. Where do you think Damon will play? Unless Rowand or Hunter are signed along with Damon, Damon is starting in CF. He's an average LF with his pathetic arm. I'm not suggesting the Sox get him unless he can play CF well, which I don't think he can. Just saying he's a good LF though with a weak arm. Nowhere near Burrell who's one of baseball's worst defensive players.

QUOTE(KevinM @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) I'd take Betemit straight up for him and laugh all the way to the bank. Sounds great, but I don't see it happening.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 01:30 PM) I tend to agree that it seems like the Sox wouldn't get much right now. But, if the Yankees in their desperation were willing to move someone of decent value, then jump at it. Let the Yanks deal with Boras in 2009. I don't think the Yankees are in desperation. They're showing interest now because the price couldn't be lower. They'll offer nothing of value now, and we'll be smart to hold onto Crede.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Oct 30, 2007 -> 03:36 PM) Damon is a pretty bad defender as well. In fact most all LF options discussed on this board are poor defenders (Burrell, Damon, Fields). This I don't buy. Damon may be declining as a CF, but is certainly above average as a LF. Burrell, meanwhile, is in the running for worst defensive player in baseball with Braun and Manny.

Under-the-radar, pretty darn good OBP guy I'd love to have back to sub at all the corner outfield and infield spots: Mackowiak 558 plate appearances with Sox .285/.360/.771 11HR

Per Rotoworld: "The Yankees have reportedly had preliminary discussions with the White Sox about trading for Joe Crede as a replacement for Alex Rodriguez at third base. Crede, who underwent back surgery in June to fix a herniated disc, was cleared to resume baseball activities on Friday. He hit 30 home runs in 2006." Not now. Crede's value couldn't be lower. We'd get nothing in return until he's healthy and proves he can play.

QUOTE(fathom @ Oct 31, 2007 -> 02:42 PM) No he's not.....his throwing arm makes him mediocre. Sure. He's above average at getting to the ball.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 31, 2007 -> 02:10 PM) And here we go again with the extremes on Owens. Kind of like we get with Crede. Reality is somewhere between... Owens has some advantages on Crisp - better base stealer, more range defensively, possibly higher future OBP's or at least on par, and of course by far most important - a 350k pricetag. But, Crisp is better than Owens in pretty much every other way, and that's a lot. I don't think there is much question that Crisp is a significant overall upgrade on Owens. The question is, is it an upgrade enough to be justified by the money? To me, as long as the Sox don't have to give away a prime prospect, he's worth it. $5M is still pretty cheap for what you get from Crisp, even if he is like he was the last two seasons. And he might, just might, improve to his CLE levels. Owens of course would improve over time, but his ceiling is I think still well below Crisp's ceiling, with the only exception being baserunning. This is coming from one of Owens' supporters - I am not opposed to him starting, depending on how the rest of the team looks - but Crisp is a significant improvement. I agree with most of this. Don't know if you were referring to me in regard to "extremes on Owens." I think Crisp is better. Better defender, though I think Owens is above average. Crisp's a better hitter, though Owens was right up there with him in avg and obp. Just that if he's not showing the kind of HR and extra base power he did in Cleveland, and with Owens ability to probably steal twice as many bases, Crisp is not THAT much more valuable. I agree, though, that Crisp has the higher ceiling, and thinking about this more it seems like a pretty good low risk"gamble," especially when compared to the contracts you'd have to give out for Hunter or Rowand. Hunter isn't 3 times better than Crisp. The big BUT is, what would we have to give to Boston?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Oct 31, 2007 -> 02:04 PM) He's far and away better than Owens. People are putting way too much into Owens' .342 Sept. batting average. Crisp has 50 steals the last 2 seasons, and been caught 10 times. He has struggled a bit in Boston, but was pretty good in Cleveland, and is reasonably priced. Owens stole at a pace to get 50 steals in one season. I agree, if he were putting up the numbers he did in Cleveland in 04/05, he'd be a great pickup. But he hasn't been.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Oct 31, 2007 -> 01:46 PM) Is Crisp much better than Owens? Not so much to give up one of our best prospects. Now I see you beat me to it. My thoughts exactly.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 31, 2007 -> 11:56 AM) He is, in my view, slightly below Rowand in value - but he's relatively cheap at about $5.5M per year for 2 years (then an $8M option in 2010). And there is always the chance he might regain his Cleveland form. He''l be 28 on opening day, 30 in his option year, so he's not too old. Has some speed. Crisp, to me, is a little better than Owens as a player, but costs about $5 million more.

QUOTE(rockren @ Oct 30, 2007 -> 12:28 PM) Anyone that says ARod isn't worth 30 million a year to ANY team doesn't know what they're talking about. Would he be worth it to us? No, because we don't have enough young bargain players to build around him. A team like Anaheim...he'd be worth his weight in gold. I think Balta and someone else brought up how a team like the Angels has enough young players to put around ARod. Think about it, Wood at 3rd, Howie at 2nd, Kotchman/Morales at 1st, Napoli/Mathis behind the plate and that's a roughly a $35 million infield the next two years at the most with ARod's $30 mil/year. As much as I hate Boras...he's right when he says that ARod will make whatever club he goes to more money than anyone can comprehend even at $30 mil/year. Just because the Angels might be able to afford him, doesn't mean he's worth that money or that deal. Just because Boras says the bidding starts at $30 million and ten years doesn't mean (even if someone ends up paying it) that the second best offer was $29 million for 10 years. I assume, with the Yankees out of the bidding, Boras tells him to play in an independent league next year.