witesoxfan

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 05:07 PM) Correct. YOU SHOULD NOT BE TALKING MR. DOLPHINS-FAN-AT-SOUTHERN-ILLINOIS ...

QUOTE(Jeckle2000 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:31 PM) This might not be too bad of a deal if it were Vazquez for Rowand straight up... I mean yes AROW is struggling but we all know he is capable of getting hot... and lets face is Vazquez has hardly any value because of that awful contract he has... If we can get AROW, dump Vazquez, and not have to pay any of his contract then I take that deal in a second. However we'd have to make a seperate trade for bullpen help... and no deal on Mack... Vazquez has no value, just because of his contract? I'd pretty much have to disagree completely with that. When the Yankees traded Vazquez to Arizona, they picked up $3 mill in each of the next 3 years of his contract(so instead of Arizona paying $9.5, $11.5, and $12.5 million, they would have paid $6.5, $8.5, and $9.5). Arizona then traded him to Chicago, and in doing so, picked up an additional $1 million for this season, and $3 million more in '07. So, with a little simple arithmetic, you see that the Sox are paying Vazquez $7.5 million this year and $6.5 million this year. In a market where a mediocre SP numbers-wise with injury problems in his past as well as a losing record for his career, but with great stuff, gets a contract equal in value to that of a .290 40 100 .900, solid defensive, under 30 1Bman, Vazquez's $7.5 million this year is a bargain, and his final year is even moreso. Of course there's a catch, in that due to him demanding and then receiving a trade, he does not become a free agent until after the 2008 season and he will enter an arbitration period following the 2007 season. I'm not exactly clear on what the details are on that situation, but if it is just normal arbitration, you could probably just not tender him a contract following the 2007 season; however, I have a feeling you probably can't do that, and his 2008 salary would be an 8 digit figure - not to say the Sox couldn't pick up some of that, but that would be something to figure out at a future date. Regardless, with the contract AJ Burnett got, I know Vazquez has value, and trading him for Aaron Rowand would be a desperate move when the team is not in a state of desperation. If you're going to get Aaron Rowand back - and it makes very little sense really, short-term and long - it's going to cost you young players, not veterans with heavy contracts. Vazquez has no value to Philadelphia, but does to other teams in the league.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:45 PM) I'm sure I'll screw this up... pwned.... How'd I do? Awesome

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:37 PM) Actually my point was sort of what Johnny Damon did to Vazquez last time they met up in the playoffs. i suck at life

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:38 PM) Mackowiak has had more experience in the field because he played for a s*** organization. Ross Gload was drafted by the Florida Marlins, was traded to the Chicago Cubs, was claimed off waivers by the Colorado Rockies from the Cubs, was traded to the Mets and was then purchased by the Rockies from the Mets 4 days after he was traded. He was then traded to the Chicago White Sox for Wade Parrish. thx4plyng

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:32 PM) Just because one has played 7 positions does not mean he plays them well. Let's remember folks, this is not Chone Figgins playing all over the field for the Angels (actually a good team). This is a guy who played all over the field for the Pirates, who have sucked balls for close to 15 years now. Rob is an average player. Just like Gload would be if given the chance. Dude, he doesn't have to play them well. He has to be able to handle the position at about a AAA level. If he can do that, with 7 positions, as well as hit the ball pretty well, he's gonna have value to a team. And he sucked balls for close to 15 years...weren't we sposed to look at this objectively?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:28 PM) If Gload is a fringe player, and Mackowiak is one of the best utility players in baseball, I submit that the only f***ing difference is playing time. With Mackowiak coming from the Pirates, he received that. Gload, actually being on a good team, did not. If Gload learned how to throw with his right hand, he'd be one of the best utility players in baseball too. You are judging relievers based on 1 stat alone, and that is a poor stat to judge a reliever by. By a reliever's standards, Damaso is having a mediocre, perhaps slightly above average year out of the pen, with his 1.35 WHIP. His K numbers are back, which is a good sign for the Pirates, but imma go out on a limb here and say you have not looked at his replacement, Matt Thornton's, numbers. Slightly worse ERA, slightly worse K/9, but a very respectable 1.20 WHIP. That is something I can appreciate, especially since he is getting better as the year goes on.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:21 PM) Johnny Damon says hi. Obviously, we'd have to get there first. That wasn't really my point. You don't just trade a big part of your team to another team in contention, especially when that is a team who you are very likely to end up meeting at some point in the postseason(if you are to advance). If this is Cincinnati(especially if it's Cincinnati, if they have anything left), or Milwaukee, or Philadelphia - a team you are almost assured of not meeting up with - then I am fine. The Mets? Hell no, don't give a potential stud to the best team in the NL.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 04:12 PM) Ok, so I will admit that Mackowiak is a slightly better OF. He is slightly below average, while Gload is below average. Was that really worth one of the better left-handed bullpen arms in recent years? I just don't understand why we continue to pass over Gload for guys that are equally wart-ridden. Mackowiak's ability to play 7 friggin positions makes him more valuable than a headcase lefty who has already been replaced exceptionally well by Matt Thornton. The fact that Gload throws left-handed probably doesn't help his chances when it comes to playing in the infield. God is nasty sometimes, and Gload is cursed with throwing with his left hand. Of course, if he could throw it 95 with below average breaking stuff, he would be blessed to throw with his left hand. Such is life.

So that way he can f*** us up in the World Series. I like it :headshake

Yay for announcing an award for June halfway through July! And Jenks is teh rawk0rz

f***in wow man. Krivsky better pull some f***ing Terry Ryan s*** out of his ass, or this is looking like straight up robbery.

QUOTE(GreatScott82 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 12:13 PM) Flash is definitley on the market. I'm sure KW will make a few calls in regards to him. But what would it cost to bring him back to Chicago? Also what do you guys think about bringing back Roberto Hernandez to Chicago? Here are the #s: Roberto Hernandez: 0-2 2.56 era with 28 Ks and 19 BBs in 40 appearances. His walks are kind of concerning, but he can definitley take Pollites job in the pen. I was all for a move to bring back Roberto to the South Side about a month ago. Then I actually looked at his numbers. April - 3.18 ERA 1.76 WHIP 11.1 IP May - 0.82 ERA 0.73 WHIP 11 IP June - 3.29 ERA 1.61 WHIP 13.2 IP July - 3.38 ERA 2.63 WHIP 2.2 IP He's not striking guys out at a high rate either - after taking out his month of May(while very good, it makes his numbers look much better than they actually are), his K/9 is a mediocre 5.54, and he's allowing baserunners on at a very high clip. That is friggin dangerous. I have a feeling some team is going to give up something of value for Hernandez, and that they are going to regret it within two weeks of trading for him. I just hope it is not Kenny Williams, and I have a good feeling it won't be. Flash is intriguing though. I like Flash. That would make the Sox pen probably the best in the majors, and in a year where bullpens are pretty much weak everywhere, a very strong bullpen would be very nice to have.

QUOTE(MSHAWKS @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 10:02 AM) No I'm not saying that some kid on a message board knows more than them. (I'm 25, by the way) I am saying that Kenny Williams has been wrong before in regards to talent evaluation, which is something people like yourself conveniently ignore when you assure the rest of us that Brian Anderson will pan out, because, gosh darn it, Kenny says he will. Kind of funny, in KW's "regime," when it comes to losing talent, I can think of 2 trades - one short-term and one long-term - which hurt the Sox. The short-term deal is of course Foulke, Johnson, and Valentine for Koch, Cotts, and Holt...Foulke was outstanding for Oakland in his 1 season in the bay, and Koch was horrendous here, and one could argue that move cost the Sox the division that year; of course, the Sox did get a vital part of the bullpen in Cotts in that deal, so it has worked out long-term. The long-term deal that has worked against the Sox is the second Carl Everett deal, a deal in which the Sox gave up Jon Rauch and Gary Majewski, both of whom have turned into pretty solid relievers for a s***ty Nationals team. Other than those two deals, I really can't think of a deal that has really hurt the Sox as far as losing talent is concerned. I think KW has a pretty good idea of who will translate and who will not translate well to the majors. What he gets back has not always turned out well(Koch, Clayton, Ritchie, Wells to an extent, and perhaps Vazquez somewhere down the line), but he's never really given up anything of value aside from those two previously mentioned.

QUOTE(SoxFan76 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 09:47 AM) I don't know, call me crazy, but I'm a believer in proving yourself. To me, Santana is the better pitcher because he gets it done year after year. I'm not knocking Liriano in any way, but who knows what could happen a year down the road? Some freak injury, the league figures something out, who knows. So RIGHT NOW I will still consider Santana the better pitcher. And I will glady change my stance a year down the road when Liriano is still mowing guys down. Does that make sense? If a guy doesn't prove himself, he shouldn't be talked about. Tyler Lumsden has a pretty good arm down in the Sox minor league system, but I'm not ready to proclaim him as the next Steve Carlton, largely because he has not proven himself. The reason I am saying that Liriano is better is because he has proven himself to me. I have seen him pitch quite often, and the guy is truly, flat out, amazing. I have seen Santana pitch quite often too, but Liriano just looks better to me. Better stuff, not quite the control of Santana, but he is full of confidence, and he has the composure of a veteran pitcher. I've never seen a player period come out of the minors and be more MLB ready than Liriano is. He is a freak. So yes, it makes sense

QUOTE(T R U @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 01:53 AM) Come on now, you know youre my brotha from anotha motha Um, yessir...?

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 12:23 AM) Yes, keep piling on. As if the dude doesn't wake up every morning all depressed and what not. Liriano and Santana are both HOF caliber, and could arguably qualify as a top 5 duo since 1950. Koufax/Drysdale Seaver/Ryan Johnson/Schilling Maddux/Glavine Santana/Liriano Think about this: If you had to choose between Maddux/Glavine in their peak years and Liriano/Santana, what would your selection be? Barring injuries, this duo is gonna bring the Twins a few championship trophies. They would straight up mow people down in the playoffs. Santana/Liriano is going to destroy the league for years upon years. However, it's hard to say who I'd choose between Maddux/Glavine and Liriano/Santana. Maddux was just friggin unbelievable for a couple years there(ERA+ of 273 in 94, and an ERA+ of 259 in 95 are some of the best you will ever see...the only comparison I can find is Petey in 99-00...245 in 99, and a ridiculous 285 in 2000...in the year of the career year, Pedro Martinez puts up an ERA of 1.74...that is mind-boggling). However, where Maddux was dominant, Glavine never really was out of this world. He was very good, I will not deny that, but I'm not sure he was at the level that either Santana or Liriano is at. I think I'll take Liriano/Santana...you can build not only a pitching staff, but an entire team around either one of those two, but both together? Not discrediting Maddux/Glavine...that's just how good these two are. I didn't have the pleasure of watching Glavine nor Maddux during their primes...being a little guy out chasing bugs and playing baseball myself and all...but from what I have heard, Maddux always had pretty good stuff, but Glavine was always more of a finesse pitcher. Liriano and Santana both have electric, lights out stuff, and they're both young as hell too(Santana turned 27 in March, and Liriano turns 24 in October)...they could be scary as hell in Minnesota for a long time. QUOTE(SoxAce @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 12:37 AM) Wite... your smarter than this. If by stating the truth, I am dumb, than so be it. QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 12:52 AM) I think he watches a s***load of Minnesota games, though. I have gone out of my way to catch a few Liriano starts, and the guy is unreal. I said that Zambrano was the best young pitcher (25 or younger) in the game a few weeks back, and I usually can't stand it when people's opinions change dramatically in a very short period of time, but it looks like I am one of those people. Liriano is the best young pitcher in the game, hands down. Best young pitcher? I think he is the best pitcher in the game. I'm not sure there is anyone I would rather take, without even thinking about age or contract here, over Liriano. He is unbelievable.

QUOTE(ChWRoCk2 @ Jul 12, 2006 -> 09:22 PM) I dont see the tigers making any sort of a trade for a bat, call me crazy but the way Leyland has these guys playing their gm might decide to keep the chemistry as is like the white sox last year. They might add a bat I dont see it as anything to dramatic. If anything I see them getting a starter because i just dont see maroth and others holding up. You missed the part where Illitch himself said he will stop at nothing to give the Tigers an AL Central championship. Leyland will likely give Dombrowski a list of players he can't trade, and he will then tell Dombrowski what he wants. A big bat is likely to be on that list, and since it doesn't matter financially who they will bring in, I think you are probably looking at Abreu or Lee, and if it's Lee, I see him staying in Detroit, so long as he is effective down the stretch. QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jul 12, 2006 -> 11:00 PM) So because your gut tells you something about a player you have never talked to or met or anything that becomes fact. That makes perfect sense. Im not saying Clee is a great guy or anything but im saying your gut means nothing its not fact its opinion. I also know that I have read a couple of articles on Clee since he has been a Brewer where all his teamates did was praise him on being a team leader. Now that is a fact. Someone can't detect a bit of playfulness in a post. Methinks Jackie knows Carlos is a solid player, though perhaps a bit selfish at times, and perhaps a bit unproductive in the second half as well. However, if there is a more unpredictable player than Carlos Lee out there, let me know. One year, he's drawing 75 walks, the next he's a 30-20 player, the next he's a great second half hitter, and the next his power disappears in the second half. I'm not sure anyone knows what Caballo will do down the stretch this year.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 12, 2006 -> 07:58 PM) I'll bet he won't be better than Santana. Liriano is fantastic but Santana is and will be better. Like I said, I think he already is better than Santana. Both are ridiculous, but Liriano's secondary pitches are better than Santana's...I think Liriano's slider is just as effective as Santana's change, and that his changeup is a little better than Santana's slider is. Liriano's composure on the mound is unbelievable for his age...most kids that are fresh out of the minors go through a little bit of a growing pains period, but I don't see that happening with Liriano. Liriano's delivery is also very good too. Santana pretty much just has a standard delivery, so you tend to see the ball come out of his hand pretty well...it's just hard to hit it. Liriano has a Dontrelle Willis like delivery where he has that big leg-kick, so it's hard to see the ball out of his hand, and thus his 97 MPH fastball looks that much faster, and that slider becomes just untouchable. Add a plus changeup to that, and I think you are looking at a stud for a very long time, again, assuming he can stay healthy. What also agrees with me are the numbers... Liriano - 10-1 1.83 ERA 0.97 WHIP 6.42 H/9 10.4 K/9 4.34 K/BB 0.51 HR/9 .201 BAA in 88.1 IP Santana - 9-5 2.95 ERA 1.00 WHIP 7.35 H/9 9.48 K/9 5.75 K/BB 0.96 HR/9 .221 BAA in 131 IP Santana has better control than Liriano does, and that's quite evident. However, that may actually be what's hurting him right now, seeing as how he's giving up 1 more homer every 2-3 starts or so than Liriano does(both are very good, and that sentence sounds funny to me right now, because I'm making a mountain out of a molehill). Santana also gives up more hits, again probably a factor of him always being around the plate. I'm not suggesting he start getting wilder, as that would probably just f*** him up; just that Liriano is very effectively wild. A lot of that has to do with his fastball-slider combo...he strikes more people out on pitches out of the zone than Santana does, with people chasing fastballs outside and sliders down and in, whereas Santana's fastball-change combo relies on people guessing wrong. However, I do not think I am going to convince you, as I recall earlier arguments we've had. I say we just agree to disagree and look back in a couple years to see who's right. BTW, TRU...JUST BECAUSE IM A BILLS FAN DOESNT MEAN YOU HAVE TO HATE ME

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 12, 2006 -> 11:36 PM) For anyone who's on the fence on whether or not to buy this, I highly recommend it. I've bought it the past couple years including this year and have loved every minute of it. I might invest in it if I had time to watch it. As is, I would end up being able to watch it about once a week, what with working 5 days a week and then hanging out with people too.

QUOTE(Benchwarmerjim @ Jul 12, 2006 -> 03:53 PM) sweet I was thinking about getting this for the rest of the season. I seem to recall they ran a special a couple years ago where you could buy the rest of this season and then all of next for a lower price. Not sure if they're doing that again this year, but just a potential tidbit.

QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ Jul 12, 2006 -> 12:14 PM) I think the central is much improved from last season. I would be very surprised to see them continue to dominate minny and cleveland like they have so far this season. It's better but not by much. Cleveland won 93, Minnesota 81, Detroit 71, and KC 56, along with the Sox' 99. This year, two teams are well on pace to win 90-100 games, Minny's on pace to win 80-90 games, and both Cleveland and KC have sucked. I don't see a whole lotta difference.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jul 12, 2006 -> 10:29 AM) I disagree. Liriano is going to be great, but he's only gone around the league once. Let's see what happens the second time around. also, he got, what, like 3 wins off the NL? Santana is one win, but I'm not ready to label Liriano as good as Santana, yet. As for the Sox, I say they hit 98 wins and win the division. Liriano is better than Santana. They are both friggin amazing, but Liriano is spectacular...he is a friggin freak of nature. Ridiculous stuff, some of the best I have ever seen. If he stays healthy, he is going to be amazing. And he was a throw-in /necessary pot-shot at Sabean

I don't know if what the Rays got in return is good or bad, but this seems like a Houston Astros type move. Solid average, solid pop, lots of XBH's. Huff to Houston doesn't surprise me at all.

There is no hole in centerfield. Anderson and Mackowiak are good enough offensively and defensively to maintain the position for the rest of the year. It could be upgraded, however, it should not be a priority, and I don't see Rowand being enough of an upgrade to give up a very good(but overpaid) 5th starter as well as a great bench guy. His defense is worse than Anderson, and his offense will be about equal to Mackowiak and Anderson's for the rest of the year. If you want to upgrade centerfield, get Brady Clark, Chone Figgins, or (*gasp*) Andruw Jones.