witesoxfan

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 07:31 PM) He had a crap year in 03' and a mediocre one in 02'. Miraculously, he was fantastic in 04', his contract year, and the year the White Sox acquired him. Freddy has a problem focusing, not with talent. took the words out of my mouth

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 07:16 PM) As I recall, Freddy looked washed up one year for Seattle too And then he got traded to Chicago

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 06:05 PM) Pelfrey could almost be better than Garcia right now anyway, the way he is dominating AA. Was never going to happen, and Minaya would be insane to give up his best pitching prospect right now. If we ask for Phillip Humber instead though............. Hell, I almost wanna just say screw Humber and get Sanchez in here. I have a question for minor league gurus...who else do the Mets have prospect wise that could interest the Sox some? They obviously have Pelfrey, Milledge, Humber, and Ring if you want to count him(and I don't)...but I am clueless otherwise.

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 08:30 AM) Heh. Who was that? QUOTE(whitesoxgt @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 04:28 PM) Would anyone mind Freddy gettin traded? ever since last year ive hoped the sox would just trade the guy i know he played very good during the playoffs and contributed to the sox winning it all but ive never liked the guy (as a player) and now that hes lost his velocity i just think its time for this guy to move somewhere else could it be possible for him to get traded? knowing that him and ozzie r "family"

Give Tracey a shot before Peralta. Tracey looked good to me, aside from having his ass ripped open by Guillen.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 11:16 AM) Unless the Phillies wanna dump Meyers because of his attitude, your gonna have to give a ton up to get him. Gordon you'll probably have to give Garcia. which im fine with. So the question with Myers is, do you look past the fact that the guy is a wife beater for his real good pitching? its a moral thing. I guess they don't hire scouts in Philadelphia, and instead trade for players based off of reputation alone. I would venture to guess Philly knows Freddy's velocity is gone, and that he is gone after 2007 anyways. Why would they give up Flash for that? They want Fields, Sweeney, Lumsden...that's who Philly wants. If that's what it costs, KW needs to look elsewhere. Those 3 are expendable to a certain extent, but a setup guy for an already pretty solid pen is not a necessity.

QUOTE(whitesoxin @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 03:44 PM) Stats can indeed be decieving. Look at Iguchi's first two ABs, swinging bunt, somehow stays fair and then he shattered his bat and was 2-2. Pauly didn't even get credited with a base hit when he ripped one into right and Thome got forced out at 2nd. Just saying.. Sure stats can be deceiving - AJ Pierzynski is largely recognized as having a horribly unlucky year last year, as a lot of the balls he hit were made into outs, thus leading to his lower average. However, a career 3.71 ERA is not deceiving. A pitcher with a career ERA of 3.71 in the AL in one of the best hitter's parks(especially for right-handed hitters) in the game is very good. The guy's not an ace, but he sure as hell is a solid ass pitcher.

QUOTE(SoxAce @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 01:42 AM) That comparison is kinda dry for a ton of reasons but I'll just say the main one since I'm tired. Bonderman is 23 years old (going on 24 this season) Vazquez is 29 years old (turning 30 in a week from now) and in the prime of his career or just getting to it as far as pitchers. He has pitched more seasons and at that, pitched in the NL. I'm a huge Javier backer but comparing him to a young cat who is still very young and, season wise, is getting better is not a fair assessment. That's the only reason it's not really a good comparison. Though this year, it probably has some truth.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 04:40 PM) does it matter....its not like july 16 is something to be happy about...we are 91 games into the season...and thats the point, not that its almost august Yes it matters, it's a rookie improving, that's huge short-term and long-term. This guy could be a huge reason as to why the White Sox take the lead in the divisional race and end up winning it. I would also guess that he's at .250 by the end of the year. To do that, he'd have to hit about .315 for the rest of the year, given 350 ABs. I think it's very possible for that to happen.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 07:27 PM) and they will still probably give him a gold glove. DUDE come on, they don't give gold gloves to guys that play for 4 months oh wait, yes they do, cuz Gold Gloves are completely f***tarded nowadays

QUOTE(Wedge @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 10:40 PM) we're deadmeat at this point. Good luck in the playoffs, guys. You can't honestly be serious. It's July f***ing 16th, and the Sox are (*gasp*) 4.5 games back in the division, and are leading the Wild Card by, what, 4 games? There's about 70 games left to be played, and like 13 against Detroit. The race isn't over by a longshot.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 12:16 AM) Well he is the Sox' player rep so he's uh, got that uh, goin' for em I guess. Actually, that usually means he's gone in the near future.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 01:26 PM) I might give up two in the top 15. Depends which two... Not a chance in hell, though, are they even touching Fields or Sweeney. Agreed, agreed. I'm open as hell to trading Fields, especially if it were part of a package for a top 5 leadoff hitter who could play leftfield and would be around till about 2010(if I haven't spelled out his name by now, it is C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D). I personally do not want Sweeney to leave this organization, and I hope KW has the exact same thing in mind.

QUOTE(valponick @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 01:29 AM) I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I was just putting some numbers out there that can be better used to measure pitching performance than ERA. That's fine, I don't intend to offend if I did. I actually like when people put out different ideas and theories on how to judge the quality of players. I may not agree with them, as I don't agree with yours, but I'm always open to hearing them.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 09:12 AM) Rowand, I agree, having Garland and Jose signed really makes it easier to deal any of your starters. But Kenny has been drooling over Vazquez since 2003/2004. This is one of "his guys." I understand the $ situation, but this just doesn't seem to me to be something which would need to be addressed NOW. It seems like something that could be dealt with in the offseason, especially if the return on any deal right now is a reliever. Let me ask you this. With what Kenny dealt to acquire Thornton and Riske, do you honestly see him dealing an innings-eating starting pitcher with Javy's kind of stuff, for 1 reliever? Now? I just can't fathom that. I could understand a Freddy trade possibly, and maybe to the Mets, since I don't think that the organization would hang Freddy out to dry by sending him to some schlep team (considering what he did for the org and his ties to the org now), but still. Read every quote Kenny has made in the past year or so and tell me that you think he would deal one of our starters for a reliever right now. Yay, we agree on something. He'd give up something of value for Gordon, but it's not gonna be a starting pitcher that's in the rotation. One more great bullpen arm will not hurt the team, and it won't cripple the organization. I think, if anything, we may end up surprised at what KW gets in return. If he were to get one of Sanchez or Heilman, great, outstanding...but he's gotta get more along with one of those two, be it Pelfrey, Milledge, or two solid prospects, I don't care(but Flash does )...if the right offer comes, you must pull the trigger. And if he does trade a starting pitcher, it has to be Garcia. We can hate Vazquez's contract all we want to, but one thing it does provide is security. Garcia's contract is up after next year, where we have Vazquez till atleast '08, guaranteed.

QUOTE(valponick @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 12:47 AM) ERA is overrated because it takes situations where fielding deficiencies or decisions by the players in the field and lumps them in as the fault of the pitcher. Fielding Independant Pitching (FIP) is a much better choice for pitcher evaluation because it takes into account only strikeouts, hit batsmen, walks, and home runs. these are things that for all intents and purposes are solely the result of how the pitcher pitches. for starters, read this http://www.tangotiger.net/drspectrum.html Furthermore, if you look at some of the numbers: Buehrle [url="http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/buehrma01.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/buehrma01.shtml 115 ERA+ 4.65 FIP 1.32 WHIP 4.0 K/9 1.19 HR/9 2006- 19 Win Shares, 39.6 VORP, 6.2 WARP Vazquez http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/stats/pl...astName=Vazquez http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/vazquja01.shtml 91 ERA+ 3.77 FIP 1.35 WHIP 7.0 K/9 .81 HR/9 10 Win Shares, 39.9 VORP, 6.1 WARP It's probably a discussion for another thread but....Vazquez has actually been slightly better than Buehrle this year. That's fine and dandy and all, but there's not a chance in hell you are going to convince me that Javier Vazquez has been better than Mark Buehrle this year. Mark Buehrle seems to be hated by statisticians because he has a mediocre-slightly above K/9, and he allows a ton of balls to be put into play. That is bad because it opens the door for inconsistency and streakiness, something often seen by Buehrle. However, when you have the best defense in the majors(arguably...I haven't had the time to look up who exactly does have the best defense in the league), pitching to contact is not the worst thing to do. In your theory, Buehrle putting a fastball on the outside corner to a pull hitter on a 2-2 count to try and get him to roll over the ball and hit it to the shortstop is a bad idea. Instead, you'd rather see him try and strike him out with perhaps a high fastball or a cutter on the hands. With Buehrle's mediocre stuff, the hitter has a hundredth of a second longer to recognize the pitch, and decide what he wants to do with it, be it watch it or swing at it. Either way, you're risking that he takes the pitch, and Buehrle has to come at him with a strike; that he misses his spot and it ends up in the gap or the stands; that he hits it and puts the ball into play, making an out; or that the hitter swings through it. If everything were neutral, and every team's defense was piss-poor, than I'd agree that FIP would be a good stat to use. As is, I'll stick to ERA and I'll let you stick to FIP.

QUOTE(Hangar18 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 10:08 AM) NICE ............... get the SOX name out there You're right, no one knows the Sox won the World Series last year because just the local media talks about a team winning the World Series. I was clueless for months.

QUOTE(Reddy @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 04:46 PM) cept Young and Gio WILL probably come back to bite us in the ass... especially if we end up trading Javy... Says who? The two comparisons I've heard people give to Chris Young and Gio Gonzalez are Mike Cameron and Oliver Perez. Tell me how those two are doing. I'm not taknig anything away from any of the aforementioned players. Cameron is extremely valuable in his own right, what with his gold glove defense, .775-.825 OPS, and his speed on the basepaths, and Oliver Perez can be an absolute stud on the mound for you, when he's right. But neither are world beaters. Of the prospects Kenny Williams has traded over the past 6 years, I can't think of 1 that has sustained success over a long period of time. Frank Francisco came up in 04, was very solid, threw a chair into the stands, and hasn't been heard from since. Jeremy Reed came up at the end of '04 and was hot as hell, and has hit for s*** since then. Mike Morse came up last year, set the world on fire for about 3 weeks, and is now hitting about .250 in Tacoma. Royce Ring was traded in 2003 and was an All-Star this year - in AAA. I have not seen a prospect, a true prospect, be dealt by Kenny Williams and go on to have success elsewhere. Whether that is poor scouting by the Sox, great scouting by the Sox, or poor scouting by other teams, I'm not sure, but it just hasn't happened. Given, he did trade Rauch and Majewski for Everett, and both of them have become very solid players for their respective teams, but neither were prospects. Rauch was 25, going on 26, and Majewski was headed to his 4th different organization, and is now in his 5th. People need to trust KW. He knows what he's doing.

QUOTE(valponick @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 05:46 PM) ERA is an overrated stat. No we aren't talking about their careers, the OP was talking about this year. Just curious, how exactly is ERA an overrated stat, especially for starting pitchers? A stat that tells how many runs a pitcher normally gives up that are his fault is overrated. I don't quite understand that. As far as I'm concerned, you must look at ERA and WHIP for starters, because they are by far the two most important stats for pitchers. If we're talking relievers here, that is completely different. Marte had a 3.71 or so ERA last year, but he was shaky as hell, particularily in the second half, as his second half WHIP was around 2.00, and his WHIP on the year was around 1.70.

QUOTE(Rex Hudler @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 12:14 AM) If the glove is laying on the ground with the ball in it, it is considered dropped. The fact it is still in the glove has no bearing on it if the glove is not still on the player's hand. Now if the OF is laying on the ground with the glove on his hand and the ball in it and another OF takes it out, then you have an out. It is all about control. A glove with a ball in it, not connected to a player is not under the control of any player. The best example of this would be a guy throwing his glove in the air and with a hell of a lot of luck catching the ball. Of course instead of an out the batter is granted 3 bases, or something around there.

QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ Jul 15, 2006 -> 12:08 AM) to be completely truthful, I don't expect to see him next week. OH SNAP i

I do have one question, for those who would know this type of thing... There is different wording within each of those... 1. It mentions that $3 mill of his salary is contributed. By the way it is worded, it seems to me that the Yankees are paying this regardless of where he is traded. 2. From the way it is worded, it appears that the DBacks are giving cash to the White Sox, and not taking on salary regardless of where he goes. Am I thinking right, or am I completely wrong?

*quietly awaits told-you-so's*

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 09:01 PM) Folks, Javy is going nowhere this season. Only contenders take on $12 million/yr contracts, and there ain't no contender that is trading us what we want/need. Forget about trading Javier Vazquez. *cough*7.5mill in 06*cough* *cough*6.5mill in 07*cough*

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 06:22 PM) Apples and oranges. Apples and f***ing oranges. You're talking about one guy who the Sox thought was going to throw 200 innings of a 4.00-4.50 ERA and another guy who the Sox though was going to hit 50 homers. Big difference than a reliever who's barely going to throw 70 innings a year... Sheesh... maybe Kenny should pull a Wayne Krisvky and trade two good young players (let's say, Brian Anderson and Juan Uribe) to Philly for a bunch of relievers. I'm sure they'd be willing to give us Arthur Rhodes AND Flash Gordon, along with eating a bunch of their salaries. Would that make ya happy, getting that 'veteran presence' into the bullpen? BTW, there's a great article with Indians GM Mark Shapiro online. Obviously, his team hasn't played as he envisioned it, but his thoughts on relievers strike me as being similar to what Kenny thinks (and me, if that means anything): http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cf..._id=46370&rfi=6 Obviously, it's not quite true that we only have "one guy" in our bullpen, but I found his thoughts interesting. Keith, I got something for you to think about Tom Gordon is one of those 30-40 elite relievers that Shapiro is talking about - the guy has been money the last 4 years. He's had injury concerns in the past, and he's a bit older, but he has not stopped producing. Is one of those 30-40 elite relievers worth good prospects? Not necessarily Fields or Sweeney(who I don't think KW has any intention of moving at all), but perhaps one top 5 prospect or 2 in the top 15, or something in those whereabouts?