witesoxfan

QUOTE(rowandrules83 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 08:59 PM) "Glorified 4th outfielder": Very original quote, I think you just plagiarized Mariotti. My point is if the guy is starting arguably the most important outfield position out there for two very good teams, how can he be a 4th outfielder? If he "just so happens to be the best option in CF", then wouldn't that automatically make him better than a 4th outfielder. I never claimed that Rowand is Willie Mays with a goatee, all I stated was that he's not as bad as you, as well as other posters, are making him out to be. The fact that you have to criticize him for basically sacrificing his body for the good of the team is a stretch. If BA backed off on a play because he didn't want to sacrifice his body,and that ends up costing the sox a game many of us would kill him on this board. BTW, the screen name is 3 years old, you apparently also intentionally ignored the date Yeah, I stole it from Mariotti, because I am absolutely obsessed with everything Mariotti writes, says, or does. Or I used it because it's the term that I feel - and many others as well - best describes Aaron Rowand. Secondly, the White Sox weren't good because of the offense; they were good because of pitching and defense. Rowand was apart of that, but what's the use for his defense when both Erstad and Anderson will likely be able to put up the same caliber of defense in CF? or even perhaps a little better? You'll get about the same offensive output from Erstad and Anderson, so it just makes no sense to bring Rowand in, even if he's cheap. He's cutting into money that the Sox could use on other parts come the trade deadline. Also, it would make him better than a 4th outfielder - on some teams. If you were to take the average OPS of every OFer in the majors today, I guarantee Aaron Rowand is either below average or right around average offensively, and his defense, though good, should not allow him a starting spot alone. If he was Torii Hunter from 3 years ago, he could have his same OPS and barely be starting for teams (though he would start). The fact of the matter is he might not start in Philly if he weren't making as much as he is, because it really wouldn't be that hard for them to put Victorino in RF and Bourn in CF and let the two of them get comfortable lower in the order. As it is, he's essentially being handed a job because of his salary. And I do criticize him for sacrificing his body because an extended DL trip is not worth one game. If my player means that much to the team - Rowand may or may not, depending upon replacements - and he's helping the team win while he's in the lineup and on the field, I'm going to rather have him cost us a victory by not making that catch and then make it up later with his bat rather than have him catch the ball, break his wrist or separate his shoulder and be out for 3 months. Rowand's lucky as hell all he suffered from his face to the wall collision only cost him a broken nose and 20-30 games. Finally, I made mention of your screen name because there's bias there. Whether that bias is as strong now as it was in 2004 or 2005 is irrelevant.

QUOTE(gosox41 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 10:52 PM) Having guaranteed losses every 5th game plus the fun of wearing out your bullpen every fifth night is a sure way to avoid making the playoffs. Guaranteed losses? The 5th starter won't make a jump from high school to the majors Bob. There will be a good enough 5th starter, be it Floyd, Haeger, Danks, Gonzalez, or whomever. Hopefully 180-200 innings of 5.00-5.50 ERA, 50% QS because that's really all that's necessary from the 5th starter

I'll vouch for fathom on this one; I clearly recall him saying "Out of anyone, Freddy Garcia would be a guy who could magically refind the velocity on his fastball during his contract year." or something to the extent. He mentioned it several times

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 06:11 PM) When is the last time a White Sox rookie starting pitcher made it an entire season on the major league roster? Danks is thought to be a little green by most baseball people. Floyd has just been a disaster. Mark Buehrle. He wasn't a rookie by MLB standards, but 3 career starts and 52 career innings going into 2001 is pretty much rookie in my book. Considering how many veterans have been brought in during the past 6 years to be in the rotation, that's not a bad rate.

QUOTE(fathom @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 07:02 PM) I don't know....the fences in Charlotte are pretty small. And I couldn't agree with you more that we could really use Garcia this year. You make a great comparison to Loaiza and his cutter. The thing I said all last year is that no matter how annoying Garcia was, I guarantee he tries harder during his FA year. The Sox wouldn't have been able to afford Garcia neither this year nor in future years. It was Garcia or Buehrle. You can criticize KW for trading McCarthy - and you have several times - but one of the starting pitchers had to go, and you can't hold that against Williams at all.

I will join for my best friend under the age of 14 in the whoooooooooole entire world

QUOTE(bigruss22 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 04:17 PM) wasnt daniel cortes traded for sandy? no, BJ Lamura was traded for Sandy

QUOTE(rowandrules83 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 05:08 PM) I have seen several people on this board refer to Rowand as 4th outfielder. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the last two years, I believe he was a starting center fielder: last year for a pretty good Phillies team, and the year before that for a Sox team who, IIRC, ended up doing pretty good as well. While I'll be the first to admit he's far from a star player putting up great numbers, it seems false to classify him as a 4th outfielder when he's started on two different, pretty good teams the past two seasons. so because the Sox did well when he was the CFer, he's good? That's the worst argument in the world. He was a passable CFer because he was mediocre offensively and good defensively. And he was not really all that good in Philly last year either, what with his .262 average and a .745 OPS in one of the best hitters parks in the NL, and to top it off, he was injured as well because of his own doing (his "grinderness," if you will). He's a good 4th OFer who just so happens to be the best option in CF for the two teams he was on in the past two years. That's no longer the case in either place, hence why the Phillies are looking to move him and his $4+ million salary The fact of the matter is Erstad would almost undoubtedly put up better numbers if he were to stay healthy, and Anderson would very likely be a better option as well. The Phillies aren't willing to just give him away, but they are and have been shopping him for quite some time, and for good reason - because Aaron Rowand is a glorified 4th OFer. /intentionally ignores screen name

QUOTE(quickman @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 05:04 PM) we can't even do that right, see Gavin Floyd. he blows, and will end up as Heath Phillips one day. Glad you can enlighten all of us with your extreme baseball knowledge. And besides that, it would be an extreme transformation then, literally and baseball wise. Phillips is a junk ball pitcher who knows how to use his stuff, whereas Floyd has pretty good stuff and hasn't been able to figure it out. I hope Floyd figures it out like Phillips has, because if he can, he's Roy Halladay or Chris Carpenter.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 04:14 PM) Floyd having a a full-scale meltdown as he loses his job as 5th starter. You say "as he loses" as if the competition is already over. There'll be another start or two before ST is over, and Danks has yet to enter this game yet.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 08:46 AM) Its also looking more and more like he doesn't have a spot on the major league roster with the Cubs. Would it be worse for them to trade him, or send him to Iowa? Speaking personally, I'd be very interested, but I have a feeling he is having shoulder problems that might lead him to surgery if his velocity is that far down. I have no proof, just a hunch based on Cubs history with this kind of stuff. Considering he was referred to as a "dark horse" for the 5th starters job, I'd definitely say he is on the outside looking in right now. As far as trading him or sending him to AAA, it really depends on what you could get in the trade market. If they could get a couple nice arms for him, I'd trade him in a heartbeat. If they can't get that - and I'm not sure they would - it's probably just a better bet to send him to AAA and hope and pray he can find his magic from 2003 again. I would also agree with you as well on the injury aspect of it, and I wouldn't even be surprised if his entire arm is just completely shot right now. I don't know if Prior is even with a flyer at this point.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 04:03 PM) Don't you believe such an idea is sort of bad for the morale of players on the field? Would you want to be put out as a "test" for pitchers -- almost expected to fail defensively? If I got a nice dinner for it later that night, sure

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 01:53 PM) Yeah speak for yourself. there was no way they were going to be nearly that good again, but I didn't expect them to put up a combined ERA of like 38.72. That was mildly surprising for me. Did you expect them to completely bomb like they did? Just honestly curious of course

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 03:59 PM) I don't know exactly what you're referring to, but with Danks and Floyd you have to judge these two based on something tangible. If not major league competition, what else? Spring training matters for these two. It matters with Erstad and Terrero too, though Erstad moreso simply because he needs to be able to prove that he can stay healthy and play defense in the OF.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 03:46 PM) Since when is this about winning arguments? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Although I don't believe it's wrong, in this instance, to openly question their evaluation of Brian Anderson considering they traded Rowand and Young with the belief he'd be their next CF. I question Williams moves when I don't agree with them. And those quotes within my signature were from Williams himself. Who, I'm guessing, understands our farm system needs to pick it up. haha, winnar

QUOTE(pcullotta @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 03:35 PM) If you are going to use the phrase "at best," that statement is not true. At best, Aaron can hit over .300 with 20 HR's, 30 Doubles, and an OPS around .900. Those are not 4th Of'er numbers. I'm not saying he will do it again, I'm just saying that at least Aaron has done it and could possibly do it again. at best Scott Podsednik is a .380 OBP/.820 OPS/75 SB guy at 80%. I'd bet one of my toes he doesn't get anywhere near any of those numbers this year (except maybe the stolen base percentage, and that's if he only steals like 15 bases). I'd also put that same toe on the line and would bet that Aaron Rowand never puts up another .800 OPS season as a starting player again, let alone .300 20 60 XBHs .900. Rowand, at best right now, is a 4th OFer. If you are going strictly based off of numbers, you are incorrect in this. His game just doesn't allow him to be any more than that, and without an adjustment, he never will be able to do it again.

QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 02:15 PM) Juan Uribe is moved to the California Penal League for Rick "Wild Thing" Vaughn" How'd you get there? Stole a car (or tried to kill a guy I guess)

and the afternoon called the voice of sanity

QUOTE(ScottyDo @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 12:47 PM) For a leadoff guy, I consider getting on base a threat. Being on when our sluggers hit a bomb is a pretty big deal. He did that alright in 2005. In addition, he got to second at a fairly hefty clip without causing an out. In some ways, hitting a single and stealing 2nd takes more of a toll than just hitting a double. Doesn't show up on the OPS measures though. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. So what makes you think Podsednik can steal a base anymore? What makes you think he can get on at a .350 clip anymore? and the guys in the middle don't hit homers every time, so it would be nice if the leadoff hitter was in scoring position more than like 15% of the time or whatever Podsednik is.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 01:19 PM) Then leave it. k and I really, really, really doubt the Sox are interested in acquiring Rowand. KW may like Rowand, but to suggest he does NOT love Anderson is a joke and a half. He may have soured on a him a bit, but he was a f***ing rookie last year. Consider the fact that KW moved not one, but two CFers to ensure Anderson would be the starter in CF last year; do you think he doesn't like Anderson? Unless it's Tracey and Phillips, or some other AAAA player, KW better not even respond.

this thread really disappoints me. Really does.

At their best, I'll take Cotts any day of the week. At their worst, I'll take Aardsma any day of the week. That's why KW traded Cotts for Aardsma.

QUOTE(ScottyDo @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 02:05 AM) agreed. he hasn't put together back to back good offensive seasons. so what outfielder on our roster has? erstad has, 5 years ago. sweeney would probably fare about the same as anderson did last year. owens is clearly not ready. i think it's likely that terrero would fare the same as sweeney. My point is, if we have a better option than Pods I'm all for it, but we don't. As a side note, I'd be interested to see how Fields would fare in left field but I don't think it's gonna happen. Well it's obviously not what you intended, but I think Jermaine Dye qualifies as an outfielder, no? And aside from Podsednik's rookie year, he's never been a threat with the bat. He got on base at a respectable clip in 2005, but that's all he did (unless you consider a singles hitter a threat, and I don't unless they're hitting .330 consistently). With Mackowiak there'd atleast be potential for power and even a few stolen bases. FWIW, Mackowiak has had 3 years ('02, '04, and '05) with 400+ PAs and 2 ('04 and '05) with 500+. In those years he put up a .754 OPS ('02), a .739 ('04), and a .726 OPS ('05). As mediocre as those are, they are quite a bit higher than numbers Podsednik has put up. Hell, he damn near had 300 PAs last year and the numbers he had were quite respectable.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 12:26 AM) EVERYTHING hinges on Scott Podsednik's health. At this moment, this is how I see things. Pods Healthy = Pods, Erstad, Terrero Pods on DL = Erstad, Anderson, Perez God I hope Ozzie is willing to juggle the outfielders. Pods traded = best, case, scenario

QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Mar 13, 2007 -> 12:07 AM) Any chance Ozzie is leaning to using Luis Terrero in CF instead of BA?? Personally I think he should leave BA alone and let the man play his game. no chance, not as a starter anyways. Perhaps as a 4th OFer if he feels Anderson doesn't earn the CF job and wants him to be starting in AAA.