beck72

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jun 28, 2005 -> 11:02 PM) Okay, name me teams with 3 aces(with realistic shots at the playoffs). I guess if you want to count the Cubs and that's pretty much it. Bullpens are what you need in the postseason and right now, ours isn't that strong at all. It's good, but not as good as everyone else's. We also don't have an as good 3B as the rest of the teams who have a chance at the playoffs. That's coming from someone who loves Crede. It's a matter of the sox gearing themselves to beat the other AL teams [LAA, Bos for sure so far]. Both have strong offenses [boston very tough, along with solid SP, weak pen but geared for a short series]. LAA has the solid SP and pen. The sox have very good SP, and having another SP in the pen for the playoffs makes it stronger right there. The sox have seen what very good SP will do for a team. SP's who can go 7, 8 innings a pop nearly every start are hard to come by. IMO, if one of the Sox big 3 fall off [due to injury, whatever] the sox can kiss a long postseason good bye. Getting a reliever to get 1, 2 or 3 outs is far easier than finding someone who can get 21 and only give up 3 runs or less. [that's my story and i'm sticking to it ] And the sox have in house options with Jenks and Baj [though I think a LHP like Scott Erye, Ron Villone or Ricardo Rincon could be possibilities to add] If a stud is available, and the sox don't acquire one by the deadline, AND someone goes down, KW will 2nd guess himself for a lifetime.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jun 28, 2005 -> 10:44 PM) Name me 1 team that has 4 aces right now, or even after trades will have 4 aces on their staff in the American League or even the National League. Do the Sox have 3 aces? Right now I count 2 guys having great years, Jon and MB. Freddy has pitched very well at times. The sox have gotten this far based on their pitching. In order to continue their success, adding to the staff [before an injury/ ineffectiveness comes after July 31st] now makes sense, IMO.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jun 28, 2005 -> 10:41 PM) Schmidt's only had 2 starts in the playoffs. 1 game he gave up 4ER in 5.1IP and no runs in 9IP. So I wouldn't say he's that much more of a for sure thing than Buehrle, Garland or Garcia. Again, you are basically going to be paying for a pitcher to start no more than 2 games. You think Ozzie is going to start Schmidt over Garland, Garcia or Buehrle who have had 100X's the year Schmidt has had? Hell no. That's not happening. Schmidt would be a 10 million dollar bullpen arm in the playoffs. No need for that. Ozzie would go with the hottest hand for game #1. Probably Buehrle even if he struggled as he's so consistent. If a healthy Schmidt wasn't needed, the sox other SP's would have to be dominating. It'd be a great problem to have--too many good arms. [and the $10 mill would be for 2006, which I think the sox would keep, and trade Contreras as the FA class is pretty weak]

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jun 28, 2005 -> 08:17 PM) Exact point I've been trying to make all day. You're basically mortgaging a future for 2 starts max in the playoffs. Beck72, you don't consider Buehrle an ace?? I certainly do. El Duque is just needed for 2 starts against the Twins really and Contreras just needs to finish the season. I'm not willing to spend tons of money and future for us to have to bench one of our aces for the most part in the playoffs. Look at Houston. They made a damn good run with Rocket and Oswalt and Backe who is far from an ace. St. Louis had a worse off pitching staff than that. Burnett as much as I'd love to have him and Schmidt just aren't needed or even close to being a priority. I'd say bullpen(lights out closer because I think Hermy is coming back to earth) and hitting(3rd base in particular) are much more needed than another ace. What I said is it is reasonable to expect a drop off from one if not more than one of the sox big three right now--MB, Jon and Freddy. Both Jon and MB are all stars. MB is the Sox ace. But it's a long season, SP's can get hurt, lose their effectiveness etc. If the sox can add another ace, w/o hurting the short term and future makeup of the club, I'd say yes, make a trade. I don't see a big name reliever being available [like a Lidge or Billy Wagner], or a bat. Why not use some resources for a SP who the sox can and will use?

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jun 28, 2005 -> 08:09 PM) You know, what really hamstrings us here is the Contreras trade and to a lesser extent the El Duque signing. Because we're on the hook for $12 million for the two of them this year and next, we really can't make a move to improve our starters without trying to unload one or both of them. But who would take either of them? Face it, we may be stuck trying to make the best with our Cuban starters, but I don't see that as all bad. Contreras really can have great outings. And El Duque, if he can be used sparingly until October, might turn in a gem or two. I guess, all in all, I'm on the fence. My thoughts on getting an "ace" in the Schmidt, Zito mold [both of whom who'd also be locked up for 2006, or at the least, could be traded in the offseason for very good prospects like the ones they traded for--the world series attempt failed, and the sox want to keep contreras and El Duque, so they could still deal one of these guys, not a 3 month rental--but I think the sox would rather not deal with both Jose's and Orlando's headaches, yet they seem a package deal]---- What happens if one of the sox big three get hurt? Or Jon gets back to a mid 4 era? Chances are all 3 can't keep up this pace for the entire season. They are bound to have a let down of some sort. Having a guy who could step into the #1 or #2 spot in the rotation wouldn't be a luxury in this case. It could be a necessity. Too many things can happen from July 31 to the October 1st. If a top pitcher is available, it makes sense to get the best player available. Seeing how the sox don't need a position player, and have options for the bullpen [esp as a SP would drop into the playoff pen] they could use resources of minor leaguers to build the best SP staff possible.

QUOTE(Wedge @ Jun 28, 2005 -> 06:44 PM) Sorry for asking this dumb question, but why do we need Schmidt or Burnett again? Do I think the Sox could get to the World series and win it all the way MB, Jon, Freddy and either Jose or El Duque throwing in game 4 based on how they're throwing right now? Probably yes, as they are pitching their asses off. Do I think they'll pitch like this all year long, and most importantly, in October? Odds are against it. I'd expect some drop off, from at least one of our top three guys. If two of the sox big three dropped down to their career avgs or below, the sox would be completely screwed against the big hitting teams like LAA and Boston. Getting a healthy, proven big game ace for the playoffs would be invaluable. And would give the sox that much more of an edge for the playoffs. As far as the names mentioned, I like Schmidt and Zito. I don't know who else could/ might be available

Starting tonight, Houston has 3 games vs Col. and and then 4 vs CIN. If they can't do better than 4-3 against these two cellar dwellars, they should pack it in and start the sell off. I can't believe some of these teams think they're still in it [probably just PR talk to keep fans coming to games in the summer months I'd live to see Lidge on the sox but it probably has a 5% chance of happening.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jun 27, 2005 -> 05:38 PM) The only reason I can figure is, they might want some quality OF prospects. Has any media outlet/ writer speculated that Lidge might be available?

QUOTE(GreenSox @ Jun 25, 2005 -> 06:06 PM) What gives us a better chance to win a WS? Trade our future for 3 month rental of Schmidt? Or keep producing playoff teams for the next 5 years, replacing Dye, the cubans, etc. with cheaper talent (which may or may not be talent, agreed) from our farm system, freeing up cash to pursue free agents and pay the raises that MB et al will deserve and get from someone? I believe that the latter approach is wiser given our budget constraints. Now if he's healthy AND if we plan on signing him, that's another story. But you don't pay a price like we paid for Garcia, short of confidence in him being in the long term plans. And it appears that the Giants are asking more than the Mariners asked for Garcia. Schmidt could get a 3 month chance to help the Sox win a W.S. If it didn't work out, the sox could pick up his option for 2006 and trade him to another team for prospects in the off season. Not ideal, but for a legitimate shot at a ring, the risk would probably be worth it My guess is if he pitches well, someone else would be odd man out via trade. One area the sox don't want to skimp on salary is the SP. They've "seen the light" and will spend in this area [within reason] if it helps improve the club BTW, Schmidt would come with a team option for 2006 for $10 mill. So it could be for 1 1/2 yrs, not just 3 months

QUOTE(Jabroni @ Jun 25, 2005 -> 03:01 PM) That won't happen. Why would they keep Schmidt for the rest of their losing season and then pay him his $3 million buyout to get rid of him? They are going to decide to either trade him at the deadline or pick up his $10 million option for next season. Keeping him for the rest of this season and then buying out his contract would make absolutely no sense. Sabean is just trying to up the ante on Schmidt's trade value to the teams that are interested in him. Sabean could decide not to pick up the option if Schmidt was hurt or something along those lines. But I did read where he said that the buy out was an option within the past few days. Posturing, maybe. But it was in print

QUOTE(Southside hitmen @ Jun 25, 2005 -> 01:53 PM) todays NY Post had this artice Schmidt can be had, but the Yanks worry about his chronic shoulder problems, high salary and the Giants' big demands. A few executives said they thought the Red Sox, White Sox and Rangers were most likely to pursue San Francisco's ace Boston will probably shore up its bullpen and wait for Schilling to come back. The Rangers don't like to trade its prospects or young guys. That may change. Schmidt's price could come down to the point that SF won't trade him due to the injury concerns/ lack of velocity. They might be better off sticking with him. Or in another article, Sabean said not picking up his 2006 option for $3 mill is possible.

QUOTE(rangercal @ Jun 25, 2005 -> 09:41 AM) People need to realize, the best trades you can make are the trades that benefits both sides of the deal. Teams would be hesitant to deal with us if our prospects in deals were always busts. It is good to see Reed and Morse doing well. Very true. And with Carlos Lee doing well in MIL, teams should see that KW isn't going to screw the other teams in a trade. that should make more GM's willing to deal w/ KW in the future [hopefully very near future].

QUOTE(Jabroni @ Jun 25, 2005 -> 10:29 AM) http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...tesox-headlines The tribune is only a few days off. The toronto sun picked this up in tuesdays paper. I also started a thread on it a few days back

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jun 25, 2005 -> 02:26 AM) We don't need a starter to win the AL Central or finish with the best record in the AL. If we are going to pay to get a starter the point would be to have it be the key acquisition to win the World Series. Now Schmidt has actually pitched in the World Series, so that is something. And he's a power pitcher the likes of which we don't have. Plus AJ knows him from last year. So I see the arguments... The other thing that makes me pause is an article on John Hart down in Texas, who built the Indians into a perenial winner. He did so by cultivating his young players and signing them out past their FA walking years. The Twins do the same. I think that is the only way to build a long term winner in baseball if you are not the Yankees or BoSox and can spend billions. Because there is enough doubt in my mind about Schmidt's marginal value (over what we have), especially given the NL-to-AL inflation in ERA, I wouldn't surrender any top prospects for Schmidt. No McCarthy. No Anderson. No Sweeney. But if SF would take second tier prospects - Diaz, Borchard, etc. and perhaps El Duque (if they wanted him) - and we paid Schmidt's contract, I could be persuaded. What I'd rather have is Roger Clemens, however, because he is a bona fide #1 pitcher who would allow Buehrle, Garcia and Garland to easily best other teams' 2-4 starters. For Clemens, I'd also be willing to consider trading a single impact prospect and lower tier guys, but not more. A few thoughts. I orginally didn't see the need for an ace like Schmidt. My thought was get a #5 guy like Lilly who could be insurance for El Duque and also pitch from the pen. A big question that hasn't been asked, is, can all the top 4 SP's having career or near career years keep it up? One or two guys come back down to earth, and the Sox could be out early in the playoffs. Getting an ace solidifies the rotation for the playoffs. Esp. a strikeout pitcher like Schmidt, the type who can dominate games. 2nd tier prospects won't cut it for Schmidt. He's deserving of top talent. Any moves made now will be geared toward taking the sox deep into the playoffs. It may involve trading good talent. Yet the sox have a young core locked up for a few yrs: Arow, Uribe, MB, Freddy, and probably Garland, Pods and AJ. And others for at least another yr: Iguchi, Dye, both cubans. The question the sox brass has to ask is how big of an impact will the guys like Anderson and BMac make. If they are impact, game changing players, maybe I wouldn't trade them. If they should be decent regulars, I'd trade them for an impact type player.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 06:34 PM) When has KW ever looked at the future he is always about winning now and especially with this team almost a lock to make the playoffs even if they play .500 rest of the way you bet KW has his eyes on the gold. Once Gload comes back he becomes our good bench bat so dont need to worry about that and as for the bullpen arm, well when the playoffs start we go to a 4 man rotation of Schmidt, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland.... leaving both the Cubans in the bullpen to go along with Cotts, Politte, Marte, and Hermy. Basicly with the team we have now, id be happy if we went to the playoffs and at least won a playoff series... preferably even make the WS... but with Schmidt you have to expect at least you make the WS and almost expect to actual win the whole thing. We would have the best playoff rotation and bullpen with Schmidt. I know El Duque has been clutch in the past btw in the playoffs but this isnt the same El Duque of past... his whip is like 1.63 the past 2 years I think its been under 1.30.... And with the way he changes speed and uses different angles he would be awesome out of the pen. I took back a little of what i said. I didn't realize there was an option yr for Schmidt in 2006. So the sox wouldn't be saddled with him if things didn't work out. The Sox would have options, such as picking up his option and then trading him. But something like getting an ace like Schmidt is making a lot of sense. I can see a scenario where Jon and MB come down to earth a little and then the sox could be scrambling

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 05:03 PM) The option also give the Sox the ability to trade either Schmidt or most likely Contreras to free up the money AND get some of the prospects that we gave up to get Schmidt in the first place. I think it's worth the gamble to trade some top spects for Schmidt and a good shot at the World Series, and then have the option of either keeping him and spending extra money for Garland or picking up Schmidt's option and then trading him for some top spects to replace the ones we lost. Or just getting rid of Contreras and his $6 million and keeping Schmidt...So many good options that KW could do after this season, making this trade very friendly... That's why something like this could work. It's to win in 2005. Everyone on the roster would know it, even if someone had to move to the pen. But it doesn't saddle the sox with a huge salary if it doesn't work out.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 04:47 PM) I would hope that the Sox wouldn't throw away Schmidt's money either. $10 million for Schmidt is a steal. I can't believe a pitcher like him is reportedly available. He's a staff anchor. Schilling-Johnson...Prior-Wood...Schmidt-Buehrle........... EDIT: Prior-Wood meaning playoff performance only... My concerns about getting a SP like Schmidt who's signed past this year was that the Sox wouldn't have money for signing Garland. That in itself could alter team chemistry by briunging in a guy, throwing money at him, thereby leaving out deserving guys [AJ, Garland, etc]. Yet the team option leaves the sox an out. And esp. if Hermanson and AJ could vouch for Schmidt, I wouldn't have the same concerns I had earlier. Still, I'd expect the sox to lose at least 2 top prospects, and another in the top 10-15.

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 03:02 PM) The Sox can let Schmidt go at the end of the season (team option). That's really not a problem. That, I didn't know. Could make a big difference. the Sox probably wouldn't give Schmidt Jon Garland's money. But if they can cut ties with him [or if he proves to be a difference maker and gives the sox some hardware, they could keep him and move one of the Cubans], I could see something like this go down.

QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 02:41 PM) The thing that surprises me is that some people don't want a proven ACE like Schimdt but will settle for a #5 starter...man the Sox staff would be frightening if they added Schimdt to it.. It's not a matter of getting a proven ace. Or not wanting one. But the Sox adding a SP who has a big contract when they already have 5 under contract [with Garland due a big raise] isn't smart for the future of the club. It's also a matter of filling all the holes with the available minor leaguers the sox have. The going rate per ESPN was 3 prospects for Schmidt [talking anderson, Bmac and a AA stud]. Where does the talent for getting a top bullpen arm come from then? Where do the minor leaguers come form getting a bench bat like JT Snow? Sox can make a move for the WS w/o selling the entire farm system

Update: Bazardo is the Marlins #3 prospect from BA, a 20 yr old AA SP with Sean Tracey like numbers. Wilson is a lesser prospect, a AAA SS hitting .250 but probably in the top 25. Add all that and a solid major league player, and that looks like an expensive price to pay for a decent 29 yr old, lefty set up man

If this one "deal" is any indication, teams that are "buyers" will be forking over some good talent for upgrades. Even if it's for a bullpen guy, the Sox should expect to give up some decent talent--ie, top 10 prospects. I know josh Wilson is a good young player, not sure about the young pitcher. But Mota as well?! The Rockies must be crazy. From today's Miami Herald: "The Marlins continue to focus their attention on upgrading their bullpen, but they're meeting with stiff resistance when bargaining because of a scarcity of quality relievers who are available. A National League source confirmed that the Marlins offered minor-league pitcher Yorman Bazardo and shortstop Josh Wilson for Rockies' Brian Fuentes but that the Marlins balked when Colorado demanded that reliever Guillermo Mota be included in the deal."

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 10:18 PM) Kenny got Bartolo in 2003 (although not at the deadline), so this would be the third straight year of acquiring the best pitcher on the block. Except the sox needed a #1, #2 type SP in those years. And Freddy replaced Bartolo This year the sox might need a #5 type SP if El Duque is out for long

QUOTE(JimH @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 12:10 AM) I suspect he won't come as cheaply as this board would like. Many on this board would like him traded for Borchard straight up . But it would be interesting to see what Tor. would want for him, prospects, near ready talent, or major league guys. Hard to see Tor. wanting major leaguers, unless its a Vizcaino type who they think has talent but is struggling in the short run

QUOTE(AirScott @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 12:08 AM) this would be one of those moves that would get the reaction of "that's nice Kenny, but what else ya got?" True, but if it helps the pen from coming into games in the 3rd inning, and nets a guy who could also eat innings as a long man in the pen, that makes the team better for the short term and long term. It also helps save the sox from giving up talent that could be better used for acquiring a bullpen guy.

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 09:56 PM) Exactly! Lilly could easily fit the mold of a Rusch on this team in terms of what he's given the Cubs the last year & half. Probably even more so because Lilly has experience in relief both in the regular & post season. When you have a chance to get 1 player who can fill two holes his value goes up. Lilly adds another LH to the pen that can start if El Duque can't. You'll like his 2nd half splits since at least 2002. With his being a strong 2nd half pitcher, after struggling big time now, the sox could get him at a better value and watch him take off.