beck72

I found this a good article on the Bradley situation http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/...mp;sportCat=mlb Bradley probably has something on the racial taunts. Baker, Jones and Hawkins all said the same things. The Cubs like to point their fingers at someone and Bradley is very convenient: he's new, getting paid a decent dollar [though less than a lot of guys; and he's had a bad rep. in the past. A perfect foil. Now, getting back to the topic, Kenny and the sox would really have to sit down and interview Bradley, some of his respected teammates from around the league, and see what his problems are [which seem to be anger management, maturity]. His bat would be a nice addition to the sox as DH, if the sox felt his problems wouldn't effect his teammates or the sox. IIRC, most of his old teammates liked him. Management and the media had big problems with him. As far as production goes, if it were dollar for dollar, I'd bet Bradley outperforms Linebrink. The Cubs would probably eat most of his salary to get rid of him--so he'd probably cost even less than the $10.5 the sox still owe Linebrink. It's something to consider, though Linebrink does have that NTC. But moving across town isn't all that drastic a move.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Sep 20, 2009 -> 12:57 PM) No team who has resorted to Mark Hendrickson has come away saying, "Hey! Looks like we improved the bullpen!" That's because people have used him in the rotation. He has posted respectable numbers in the bullpen. The sox could use a LHP who can throw more than one inning for the bullpen.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Sep 20, 2009 -> 03:40 PM) It's worth noting that the Sox have gone almost exclusively in-house for closers over the past 20 years. The one time that they traded for an established veteran (Koch) was a complete disaster. So, if Bobby is dealt, I seriously doubt that somebody like Valverde or Qualls will be signed to replace him. Thornton seems to be the most likely candidate. Exactly. Thornton seems to have Ozzie's confidence and would make sense to replace Jenks. What I was saying was signing a free agent or making a trade for set up, not for closer.

One LHP the sox could target via free agency is Mark Hendrickson. His splits as a releiver are much better than those as a SP. He made $1.5 mill this year, and prob, could get that as well in 2010. http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?play...g&year=2009 He's been better the three years prior in relief, as well. http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?play...ng3&three=1

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 20, 2009 -> 03:11 AM) and..........the Sox don't need pitching? Let's see this thread started with Jenks for "prospects" to Alexi for a "quality reliever". It amazes me how fans value players. A closer is not the easiest hole to fill. Why is it that teams that have a reliable one seem to hang on to them? Pitching will always be expensive when you have to get it outside of your organization. I don't see Kenny getting rid of Jenks unless it is an outstanding deal. Then you have to fill that hole. If it's Thornton, then you lost a valuable setup man. That's another hole to fill. Also when it comes to free agency, how often do the Sox outbid anyone? Most agents seek long term contracts. The Sox don't like them. That's why they end up signing guys like Linebrink. This thread started with professional baseball writers, mainly Nightengale, who isn't a hack, and others who have their ears to the ground, suggesting Jenks is more likely to be traded than to remain with the team. That being the case, and knowing Kenny Williams isn't shy about pulling the trigger on a trade, scenarios were thrown out there. If you don't like the premise, that Jenks may be traded, fine. A solid case could be made for keeping Bobby. Yet the premise is that what to do if the sox are intent on trading him, what should they get back. I posted that in an ideal trade for Bobby [iMO], I would want "prospects" that could be: #1] a LH hitter for the OF who could make the team to start 2010, and #2] a LHSP who could also start 2010 in the bullpen. They are major league ready prospects. The sox have multiple holes to fill-and few trading chips. Jenks is one. If the sox traded Bobby [as "Son of a Rude" suggested, to MILW. for Hardy, and I'd expect another player from the brewers as well for Bobby] that could make Alexei another big trading chip. Those two trades should net the sox 3, maybe 4 players who could be on the sox 25 man roster to start the 2010 year. The sox have their rotation set. Few teams do. But they still have some major lineup changes to make. Standing pat and adding Chone Figgins isn't the answer. More still needs to be done. The sox have made a lot of their changes via the trade. Few free agents are out there that make a lot of sense for the sox. And like you said, the sox don't sign many of them anyway [though I could see a veteran bullpen arm come to the sox for a cheap, and short term deal].

QUOTE (jphat007 @ Sep 19, 2009 -> 07:24 PM) So you are cool with going into the season as Carrasco and Hudson as your main setup guys? I can't say I agree. And then who is the primary guy against lefties? Randy Williams? On my "to do list", fixing the lineup takes precedence over who is pitching in set up. Though I'd expect the sox to make a trade for a bullpen arm. If trading Bobby would help the sox offense get more versatile and improve defensively [such as adding Hardy, which would make Alexei expendable], then I'd be all for it. Replacing Jenks with Thornton would probably be an upgrade at closer. Pena and Linebrink won't be as bad as they have been this year. Both have solid track records. Williams has shown he can get outs--prob. not as the main LH option though. The best options will prob. come from within the sox org. Build around a closer, such as Thornton. I'd expect that the sox SP's in Birmingham and Charlotte will all be looked at as bullpen options for 2010, esp as the sox are set at 1-5, and # 6 being Hudson.

QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 19, 2009 -> 08:46 PM) I don't think it is over valuing him too much. He is a young, cheap shortstop who puts up above average numbers at the position. Boston could be going for Hardy though. I wouldn't think Boston would be in the market for a reclamation project like Hardy. That would be a hard sell for the fan base. Alexei, OTOH, wouldn't be hard to sell. Esp. as he's cheap.

QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 19, 2009 -> 08:34 PM) Right... JJ Hardy was one of the best offensive shortstops the past 2 years. he is having an off year. I'm sure he would bounce back. I also think Jayson Nix is better than Getz. His range at 2b is a lot better, but he needs to improve on the boneheaded plays. I think another year of experience and playing full time, he would get better. In my opinion, .750+ OPS and great defense from both players is acceptable for SS and 2b. Getz is still going to start over Nix. But that's besides the point

QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 19, 2009 -> 08:21 PM) I like Alexei a lot. I think we would need to get a lot in return for him. JJ Hardy + Jayson Nix (Assuming he improves on making less boneheaded plays) would be an amazing defensive infield. If the Sox were to acquire Hardy in a trade for Jenks, an Alexei trade could help to improve the talent level on the 2010 and 2011 sox a lot. There would be a lot of teams who would be in on Alexei-starting with Boston. I like Josh Reddick a lot. And with Bay likely to re-sign there, would be blocked by him, Drew and Ellsbury. Reddick plus some pitching [say Michael Bowden or Felix Doubront] would be a nice haul for Alexei [this is probably over valuing Alexei].

QUOTE (jphat007 @ Sep 19, 2009 -> 07:58 PM) Who the f*** is gonna pitch in the bullpen? Thornton and who? Everybody else that we have sucks. Jenks has at least shown that he can be solid at times. Unless you want Linebring and Pena as primary setup men. If thats what you want, go ahead and trade Jenks. Any trade we did for Jenks would have to bring back and good setup man. Two guys who should pitch in late inning set up should be Carrasco and Dan Hudson. With the sox bringing back Freddy, Hudson would be a good late inning option.

QUOTE (son of a rude @ Sep 19, 2009 -> 07:51 PM) I wonder if we could possibly net JJ Hardy in a trade... He had an off year this year, but he is one of the best defensive SS and was great the two previous years. The Brewers have a good prospect Alcides Escobar that they brought up to play SS, so it doesn't seem like they have room for Hardy anymore. I'd be so freakin happy if we could get this trade done. I would throw in some decent prospects with Jenks if we could do it. They have Hoffman signed this year, but I'm not sure if they will sign him again next year. Hardy is a beast on offense and defense when he is on. He would be a great addition. We could move Alexei to 2b and trade slappy mcpop getz or something. It would really solidify out defense, something that will help greatly with this great pitching staff. If the sox could get Hardy in a trade for Jenks, the sox could then move Alexei for major league talent. This is key for any 2010 success-improving the roster. The sox then wouldn't have to move gordon from 3b, and Getz would still be solid at 2b. The Red sox would probably be interested in Alexei. Then the Sox could possibly get a lefty hitting OFer like Josh Reddick along with pitching, to help improve the bullpen/ depth in starting pitching. The talent the sox would get in a trade of Alexei would be guys they could plug in immediately.

I think something we can all agree on is that Bobby's value won't be all that high--based on his year, other closers being available, and increasing salary [though I'd expect the sox are argue hard against him getting much of an increase in arb.] The sox would probably be hard pressed to get two solid peices in return for Jenks that could make the roster in 2010--any move of Jenks should be made that wouldn't worsen the 2010 team. I could see a young OFer [less than 28] who a team could move if they have a younger player coming up--say like David Murphy of the Rangers, as they have Julio Borbon ready for the OF, along with younger pitching. That being said, the sox may have to move another player or two who has value in order to help improve the sox talent level.

QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Sep 19, 2009 -> 12:30 PM) The thing about making Thornton the closer is that Ozzie will never break the traditional 'closer' mindset, so were going to waste a really good LHP if he's in that role. I'd be ok with that if we could acquire another high caliber lefty (or just another good RP in general). The thing about Thornton, is he has pitched well vs both LH and RH hitters the last 3-4 years.

Bob Nightengale of the USA Today Twittered yesterday that he thinks Bobby Jenks will be traded in the offseason. http://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/4089283624 I could see that. Jenks is getting expensive, he's had an off year, the Sox have Thornton who could close, and he's a guy who has value in the trade market [i've advocated Alexei being moved, but it seems unlikely given his low cost and no other option for 3b/ SS if Beckham replaces him]. That way, the sox could fill a few holes, improve their young talent and still contend. IMO, the sox need to add at least another good, LH bat who could start in 2010. The OF would seem to be the best spot to add a bat who could contend for a position. [Or 1b, if the sox could have Konerko OK a trade to the west coast.] I'm not sure of the teams that would be in the market for Jenks. Yet IMO, he should net the sox 1] a top OF prospect who could start in 2010, bat LH, and be solid defensively [a team's 1-5 prospect]; 2] a SP who could be in AAA to start the year, yet could be in the rotation if an injury occurs [give me a LHP, someone who could be added to the bullpen] a team's top 10-15 prospect]; I know MLB Trade Rumors speculates that Jenks could bring a similar return like George Sherrill did for the O's, a #8 and a #15 prospect [prior to 2009] from the LAD. Yet Bobby has had more success than Sherrill, and is younger. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/09/disc...obby-jenks.html Thoughts on trading bobby; for what; and who should close/ be added to the bullpen if Thornton takes over?

KW will definitely change the sox lineup for 2010. More speed, better contact hitters, hitters not all or nothing, prone to slumps for long stretches. The sox post all star break record of 26-30, mostly due to the sox power hitters slumping, was the final nail in the coffin. I wouldn't be surprised if the sox would approach PK about OKing a deal. Esp. if the sox can add a lefty bat for 1b. I don't think having Kotsay for 1b would be the answer though. Konerko-.247/.346/.467 Thome-.240/.317/.496 Quentin-.238/.321/.417 Dye-.166/.266/.269 Alexei didn't help either. While he has improved from the 1st half, he still has only posted on Post ASB OPS of .693. He was supposed to improve upon his 2008 numbers of .792, which he hasn't. Rios' has been worse than Dye, though with less 2nd half AB's for the Sox, with an OPS of .371. AJ, Pods, Beckham and Getz have done a solid job in the 2nd half, though.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 10:07 PM) Can we stop saying this? I know believing so is convenient because it absolves Rios from being horrendous and Peavy from not pitching in early September, but it's not as if Williams was ignoring 2009. I know it's an excuse because, look at in these terms -- if Rios was performing well and we were within a few games of the division lead with Peavy set to return, would people not say that Williams was thinking of 2009? Of course they would. But now that Rios has looked terrible, we're 6 out of the division, and Peavy isn't pitching, we can conveniently throw out the "[they] were mostly for 2010." Obviously they're important players for 2010 and beyond, but to ignore this season is foolish. What Rios' acquisition was also supposed to do was to give Dye, Pods, and Quentin rest. The extra rest was supposed to have these three performing at higher levels. Pods has done better. Yet Dye and Quentin have been more or less non-existent.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 11:07 PM) Can we stop saying this? I know believing so is convenient because it absolves Rios from being horrendous and Peavy from not pitching in early September, but it's not as if Williams was ignoring 2009. I know it's an excuse because, look at in these terms -- if Rios was performing well and we were within a few games of the division lead with Peavy set to return, would people not say that Williams was thinking of 2009? Of course they would. But now that Rios has looked terrible, we're 6 out of the division, and Peavy isn't pitching, we can conveniently throw out the "[they] were mostly for 2010." Obviously they're important players for 2010 and beyond, but to ignore this season is foolish. What I'm saying is that the Sox post season plans rest more with what Dye, PK, Quentin, are or are not doing than with Rios and Peavy. The sox were a sub .500 team w/o Peavy and Rios. Blame rests more with the guys who weren't hitting, playing defense or pitching before those 2 were added.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 05:46 PM) So the carrot didn't work, now they are trying the stick... Carrot nothing. All Walker offered Rios was pitching reports for 2-3 weeks, then gave him 7-10 games to fix things once they offered some advice. If Rios turned down offers for help, then he deserves the stick. But the carrot seemed to consist of a "welcome to the sox", fix things on your own until we've had enough, and then we'll complain that you can't hit. I haven't bashed Walker in the past. But this screams of neglect on his part. And now they're blaming Rios for not hitting.

QUOTE (G&T @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 02:29 PM) I don't know if this adds to the conversation, but it was interesting: On B&B last week, Boers said that "his guy" with the Sox (who is rarely wrong about anything, BTW) told him that JR is pretty pissed off about how poorly the Sox have played after being told that Rios and Peavy would be enough to make the playoffs. That's what prompted the attempted sell off on Aug. 31 and the "blame me" stuff from Ozzie. I think there is a lot riding on a playoff spot for this team. I could see JR being pissed. But Peavy wasn't going to be ready for a month. And Rios alone wasn't the missing peice. Making the playoffs for 2009 rested on the offense and defense being more consistent, with additional rest, growth, etc, and the pitching staying strong. So far, the offense hasn't fully responded. That is on Dye, PK, Carlos, etc. Peavy and Rios were mostly for 2010. Kenny could sell the deals to possibly improve this year's team [and hence, improve the attendance- though Peavy was known not to be ready for at least a month from the deadline] and make the Sox set for 2010 and beyond.

Without getting into all the financials, the Peavy and Rios pick ups were made with Kenny looking ahead into the free agent markets of 2010 and 2011. Few guys have the upside of Peavy and Rios, and few would be able to be signed at the "discounted" prices of those two. With the sox contracts coming off the books after 2009 [dye, thome, Jose, Dotel] and 2010 [pk], and the salaries they shed in Javy and Swisher after 2008, the sox had the flexibility to make these moves. Esp. as the sox have younger, inexpensive players filling other spots. The rotation is set. The Rios acquisition is more of a gamble, but a way to imporve the defense and offnes with one player. IMO, Rios will get back to being the asset he once was on offense.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 01:37 PM) That has been the Sox philosophy for quite a while now and it's probably one of the main reasons we've been so bad at developing prospects over recent years. It's fine to take that approach with proven veteran Major League baseball players like Rios, but this was the same thing they did with Brian Anderson as one example. They decided to let him get by on talent for as long as he could without trying to fix anything until he failed. The problem was, Brian failed at the MLB level, and when players have enough raw ability to make it that far, then you can't just put off making changes like that. Now, we did keep Dexter Carter in Kanny to work on his change before we traded him in the Peavy deal, and Carter's numbers alone warranted a promotion. And I don't desire to turn this into yet another BA thread, but I REALLY hope the DCarter situation was a sign that the "don't fix it until it's broken" mentality is completely gone from the farm system. But back on topic, again, I think it's fine to do that with proven players who have had success in the Majors before. In fact I'd actually recommend it because you can always find a hitting coach who doesn't like a given player's approach, but if that player is hitting or was hitting in the recent past, and if the player is new to the hitting coach, it's best not to mess with anything until you definitely have to. Even if Walker was considered one of the best hitting coaches in the AL, it's unlikely he'd be able to make a change that would show results right away. By making mechanical adjustments he's taking the player back to square one in a way and it'll be a while before any benefits are realized. Lately it seems like Rios is going out up the middle and to center more, so hopefully that's a sign that some progress is being made here. With the sox focus on getting younger, and the vets moving on after this year, Walker might not be the guy to lead the Sox hitters in the near future. Even small adjustments could be made to a hitter-veteran or young- that don't require getting back to "square one". If Walker can't do that, he shouldn't be in charge of young hitters who will be making up a majority of the sox roster in the next few years.

The White sox sure seemed able to predict that Chris Young might have difficulty hitting in the bigs. Or they wouldn't have traded him. Looks like the sox were correct, as the D-backs are stuck with Young on a really bad deal.

Let's go by the full 3 weeks of the sox being hands off of Rios. http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=5880 In those 3 weeks, starting on 8-12, Rios would have started 16 games, w/ 3 days off, and 2 games w/ no AB's as he went in for defense. That would take us to Sept. 4th before they started working with him. That would mean Rios has had 7 games working with the hitting tips/ new advice Walker gave him. Now, I'd be pissed if Rios wasn't taking advice from the sox, knowing how he's struggling. But from the sounds of it, the sox haven't given the guy much to work with in terms of advice. I'm pissed at the sox for letting the guy struggle, knowing full well he's doing something wrong and looking horrible at the plate, like they want the guy to HAVE to take their advice.

This is where the sox had said they had a "hands off" approach with Rios. http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/09..._with_rios.html They should have given Rios a few days of looking horrible at the plate and then given him suggestions to correct what was wrong. There was no time to wait for him to get things fixed. Why wait until he was "drowning", and waste 2, 3 weeks of at bats in the middle of a pennant race before you give the guy advice? And Walker's quote, 'the last thing you want to do in Sept. is work on mechanics'? It is what it is. If Rios' mechanics are off, work to correct them, whether it's Sept. or April. Again, I don't know if Rios is taking the advice, being stubborn or what. But it sounds like the sox didn't take immediate steps to work on what was wrong with him, and let him continue his struggles, IMO, unnecessarily.

IIRC, Walker talked about Rios less than a week ago. Walker said he didn't get into specifics with Rios about fixing his swing until recently, saying something to the effect that they wanted Rios to get comfortable before they tried to "fix" him, give him advice. I think the sox should have looked into fixing Rios right away-what do the sox gain by having a guy struggle, look horrible, and make the offense weaker as a result. Now, if the sox approached Rios and Rios said "thanks but no thanks, I can get myself out if it", then screw him. But Walker seemed to suggest that the sox hadn't really worked on fixing what was wrong with Rios until just recently.