caulfield12

Experience managing is different than experience PLAYING. Two totally different things. Look at Ted Williams, or Michael Jordan as an executive. Greatness in one usually doesn't lead to even a good manager because great or very good players don't understand what it's like to struggle their whole life just to get to the bigs and get one hit and then spend another 5 years hanging on in the minors while waiting for coaching job to open. They don't understand what it's like to sit on the bench, and they're often high round draft picks, so they don't understand what it means to struggle financially. As to Tex's point, it's easier to become a US Senator or member of Congress, by far. There are only 30 jobs. Since there's never been a female manager, you've just eliminated half the population due to the "good 'ol boys network." Now, out of all those males who are aspiring to become a manager, you've got how many engaged in professional baseball at some level...collegiate or high school, working outside of the U.S. or one of the six or seven minor league affiliates, indy leagues, etc. Let's just say it's 5,000, just to throw out a number. How many of those MLB managers have been given an opportunity without ever having played at least with the minor league affiliate of a major league team? That number must be under 10 in the entire history of the majors. At least if you want to be a big league GM, it's more of an equal opportunity position if you're in the right place at the right time...with the right mentor (one who's not threatened by someone below him)...coupled with a more modern education, now often including MBA's and law degrees and numerous Ivy League/Cal Tech/MIT grads in the quant department. One that comes to mind was the time Bill Veeck gave the fans "flash cards" and everyone sitting in a designated section got to play collective manager for a day. There was Ted Turner managing for the Braves, although they quickly put a stop to that and forced him back to the owner's box. http://www.baseball-almanac.com/mgrnon.shtml Here's a list of the non-player (meaning they didn't make it to the majors) managers. Can anyone think of players from that list that never even played a single inning professionally? That's your answer Tex. Why it's much harder than becoming a US Senator is the fact that basically having a college degree in perceived as the minimum qualification these days for that office. For an MLB manager, it's a professional (at least minor league) playing career.

It seemed to help Daniel Hudson, Gio Gonzalez (motivation of being traded twice by the same organization) and Brandon McCarthy in the past...getting away from the White Sox and/or Cooper. There's seemingly not much middle ground with him, as we saw last year with Samardzija. You're either in his camp or you're on your own/exiled. Perhaps the prime examples, though...are Kip Wells and Josh Fogg from the Ritchie trade. They both really flourished in Pittsburgh and were a big part of helping to get that organization headed back in the right direction. Fogg had a much longer career than anyone would have predicted.

http://wtop.com/dc/2015/08/chef-responds-t...aurant-lawsuit/ Wouldn't it be equally fair then to condemn Trump when you start a business project with him, he libels the ethnic background of the 5 star chef (Jose Andres) and what was originally intended to be at least 1/3rd of the customer base...why would any Hispanic person want to support ANY Trump project? So the PGA is also "anti-Trump/reverse racist" because they're moving a Florida tourney from a Trump course to Mexico City, lol? Is there anyone besides lower middle class and middle class whites without a university education that Trump hasn't pissed off? How is that possibly going to lead to an electoral victory in November when 75% of the eligible female voters in the country will never vote for him...? Trump's going to carry 80% of the white male vote? Even if he does that, he'll lose Hispanic, black and the majority of Asian voters.

PetCo Park. See Eric Stults and Clayton Richard. New pitching coach, where it was pretty clearly he and Cooper didn't see eye to eye. Maybe some mechanical changes or just relaxing and he'll get his fastball in the 92-95 MPH range it used to be when he was at his best in the minors. Pitching in meaningless games without any pressure...all these things make Johnson having a 3.5-3.75 ERA not a complete surprise.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/15954017...-ode-nba-finals Important news!!! Cubs to wear "track suits" on their road trip to pay homage to the NBA Finals, continues Maddon's Ingenious Theme-Oriented Strategy to keep regular season from getting too bored/complacent without any adequate competition in the NL.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 09:14 PM) I'm not seeing an apathetic clubhouse. I'm seeing a group of players that were kicking ass just six weeks ago, but currently aren't getting it done. Some due to injury and some for other reasons. I'm also not seeing chemistry problems. Therefore, firing Ventura would just be a symbolic gesture at this point. As somebody else in this thread stated, it would be nothing more than red meat for the fan base. I don't think that it would motivate the team, either. It's more likely that it'd give the team the message that they're not responsible for their record. It would make more sense to "fire" a player that hasn't produced all season. Jimmy Rollins comes to mind. Not now...more if we don't pull out of this soon ("Dog days of August/Sept"). We might JUST be 2.5 games back in the WC hunt right now, but there are almost 10 teams ahead of us in the standings right now in the AL, and DET is just 1/2 behind us. Then you've got two super-franchises in the Yankees and Angels on the wrong side of .500 that aren't just going to give up. It's hard to see how we can stay in the race without playing much better in our own division. I wouldn't understand Ventura staying during those final two months any more than I can currently understand why they didn't play Tyler Saladino instead of Alexei Ramirez at SS at the end of last year...

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 08:43 PM) Note that it was Kenny Williams, not Robin Ventura, that banned Drake LaRoche from the clubhouse. Also note that Kenny Williams and Chris Sale are both hotheads and have had an antagonistic relationship from day one. I'd love to see Maddon try to "control" Sale and Kenny. In addition to philosophically not agreeing that managers have much of an effect on team performance, I think that it would be disruptive to fire Ventura in the middle of the season. I would be much more comfortable with JR firing Ventura this winter. If it were up to me, I'd give this current cast of characters another year. If the Sox are still mired in mediocrity in July of 2017, I'd strongly consider holding a firesale, loading up on the best young ML-ready talent that I could, and firing Kenny Williams. That would address the real, systemic problems that have plagued this franchise. How many games under .500 or games out of the 2nd wild card would it take for you to be convinced otherwise THIS YEAR? Where you just say, to hell with it, "might as well try to ignite a spark because this team's going nowhere and Ventura's already a lame duck serving out his last months"? How would it help those key pieces of the 2017 core (like Anderson or Fulmer) to be around that kind of a clubhouse and apathetic atmosphere where they're just playing out the string and trying to be spoilers? At the very least, Renteria can assess those players over the final 2-3 months, and, if not retained, provide his objective insights to whoever gets the full time job for 2017.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 08:32 PM) Yet you wouldn't have said that a few weeks ago, no? If you would've told me on April 4th that on June 5th the Sox would be 1 game over .500 and 2.5 games out of first I would've said sign me up. If you would've told me they were in 1st and 10 games over .500 in May I would've said pass the pipe. As much as I want the FO to do something I think it would just be red meat to angry fans at this point. I know I'm pissed off and want something to change. But honestly, the only thing we all want to see changed is that they start winning more. If they fire Robin and hand the keys to Renteria or someone else and start winning, then I'll admit I was wrong and be happy....but I really don't think changing managers is going to change this team. They should've done it at the end of last season, if at all. That's all fine and good, but the Indians and Tigers are both riding high, the Royals are just trying to remain afloat until they can make some moves at the deadline while waiting to get back a healthy Alex Gordon and the White Sox are falling like a lead balloon. It's a four team race, and the White Sox are the ONLY team out of those four that has shown the completely inability to beat ANY of their three main rivals (3-12 so far, including essentially three sweeps...Cleveland was 4 games, we lost 3 in a row, so it felt like one for sure considering a 3 1/2 game lead evaporated in just 3 games).

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 08:06 PM) Honestly, it actually has NOTHING to do with Ventura. You see, what happened was - in this ever connected cosmic dance called consciousness, that Tuesday night I broke up with my lady. Shock waves of disdane were sent rippling throughout the stratosphere and resulted in the White Sox becoming unhinged. Blame me or the old lady - not Robin. Greg is preserving his disdain for Ventura, Scott Carroll, the White Sox bullpen, every AL Central opponent not named the Twins AND Alex Rios/Adam Dunn/Adam LaRoche. And disappointment with Applebee's new wood-fired offerings not being available in Lawrence, KS. I will remember it more for Ryan Rua's homer to straightaway CF off Albers, though. Actually, I think there's an exact time and place the season shifted...it was that game Sale started against the Indians where Jose Ramirez and Juan Uribe just battled him to a standoff and sapped the life out of the Sox by turning a 3 1/2 game lead into only a 1/2 game advantage (because we'd played more games). The Albers Miracle Double Game did absolutely nothing to shift things back onto track, unfortunately.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 08:04 PM) At least we're not the Cleveland Cavaliers. At least we're not any professional sports team located in Cleveland (watch the Indians now win the World Series). We're not the A's, Rays, Marlins, Twins or a rebuilding NL team (Reds, Padres, Brewers, Rockies, Phillies). We're not Johnny Manziel or that Stanford swimmer's father.

That was Eaton and Sale...and they've been two of the 10 best players in the AL. Sale's starting to struggle against the ALCD (again), and Eaton's fallen off as well. I'm not sure what Ventura did with Eaton (if anything), but he's turned a below-average (2015) CFer into one of the most valuable commodities in the game. Another team's announcer recently called him the best all-around leadoff hitter in the game today. So who should get credit for that, other than Adam Eaton himself? Has anyone asked him that question recently?

Warriors burying the CAVS right now. ABC/ESPN must not be very happy about how this series is developing...almost starting to feel sorry for LeBron. Almost. Plus, Love's out, although I hope THAT'S not used the main excuse. All the players on that roster just complement each other so well, and they're that rare professional sports franchise that's able to play so unselfishly and sustain it for a period of time beyond just one season.

It's part of this whole saber argument...managers don't matter, not easily quantifiable. If that's the case, why is the motivational/self-help/positive and affirming life principles to live by one of the biggest annual sellers for every publishing house? It's easy to study leadership and check off traits and attributes and run experiments to assess if it's something you can develop or are simply born with, but you know it when you see it. You can almost FEEL it. At any rate, if the problem isn't Ventura: 1) It's on Hahn, KW and Bell on the talent development side 2) Marco Paddy...seems we haven't heard nearly as much about him recently (still waiting on all those Latin American prospects, and waiting, and waiting) 3) Or, it's on JR and family for not providing enough financial resources, which brings us back to: 4) The fans 5) The bad luck of not having an influx of broadcasting rights money like 10-12 other franchises are taking advantage of Since you can't fire the fans, and they've already tried replacing almost an entire roster from 2012 other than Sale and Quintana, what other conclusions could be reached? Hahn, KW or both aren't really good at their jobs. Since they're unlikely to fire themselves, and only JR can fire Hahn or KW, then it's obvious what will happen first. Ventura will be scapegoated, but in a quiet and respectful way...."they didn't see the improvements they envisioned when he was hired, his heart was no longer in managing and he felt it was time to become more active with his children, grandchildren, etc."

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 05:44 PM) Robin Ventura shouldn't be fired. Then what is your suggestion to end this 6-18 stretch? Just let it run its course, and hope for the best? Sounds like the same approach we've been taking for a decade. Be patient. Things will turn around. It's a long season. Jackson and Cabrera will be back. Shields is a proven leader! Did the Tigers fire Brad Ausmus when they were 3-5 games under .500 and things were looking bleak? Did the Royals just fire Ned Yost after a four game sweep in CLE and a disastrous game from a managerial standpoint that led to it in the first game? Besides, we can always make moves at the deadline...except, oooops, there's too many teams in the AL that are competitive all searching for that little extra advantage, so maybe we should sit this trade market out instead of trading away our final remaining minor league assets. We still don't really know what we have after 85-90 games so we'll just stand pat and play it out and assess for building a team that will be 100% ready to compete out of the gate in 2017. Err...I mean, a team that will not be out of the race in April but also will not fold like an accordion in May after being the best team in the AL for the first five or six weeks. There, that's the ticket.

And yet we love giving away $5 million to Manny Ramirez, Jeff Keppinger or Emilio Bonifacio. That might be the single biggest frustration I have with the organization. It's not the payroll/spending, it's HOW they are spending it...they've been horribly inefficient in this area ever since 2006, when the payroll became bloated. They've had their individual successes, sure...but not in the way of improving the manner in which the organization runs and how they think (short vs. long-term).

Shields just needs to be a #4 and provide his customary innings and a mid 4's ERA. The bigger problems are getting Rodon to pitch like a 2/3 and Abreu to jog his muscle memory and get back to 2014/15 form. Without those two things happening, they're not going anywhere regardless. Having Anderson and Fulmer both work out and not bust would also be quite helpful.

Here's the thing with Hahn...though. He's the flip side of AJ Preller, whose success in the Rangers' front office was almost entirely wrapped up in international scouting, running the minor league system/new trends in coaching and player evaluation and development. What evidence do we have that Hahn really knows how to pull that off? Because if he was mentored by Hahn and JR over all those years, their approach has been the completely, exact opposite of what the organization SHOULD have been doing? So, because Hahn is very good at "negotiating contracts," that makes him the best qualified to create and manage an entirely new ecosystem, a "White Sox Way" or whatever you want to call it? Is keeping someone who is too close to see "the forest for the trees" involved in turning things around really the best approach here? It's certainly the most LOYAL, but we've seen where that's getting the Bulls and Sox these days. Dysfunction.

So the disproportionate incarceration rates for African-American and Hispanic males...or the ridiculous probability of a black person killing a white being person being 6-8X times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white killing a black person, you can just overlook all that institutional prejudice/bias/racism not only from predominantly white juries (in the South) but also a slew of judges and police departments? And the antithesis of that is Trump? Hmmm... I do find one thing quite odd, though. There is a double standard about the way lots of politicians and entertainers/comedians treat Asian people (for example, the Oscars jokes or Trump vilifying Chinese leaders everyday). Is this because Asians are perceived to now being equal or more successful than whites in terms of educational attainment or social status in the US (and also due to success of the Asian Tigers and rise of China)? Easier targets? Nobody to step up and defend them because "Asians are meek and humble and won't fight back" other than Jeremy Lin, because he represents ALL Asian/Chinese people in the US and went to Harvard?

Feels like it's about the perfect time for KW to make some incendiary statements that throw Hahn/Ventura under the bus and attempt to distance himself from this current mess....

No, no, no...bases loaded has been the kiss of death for our offense this situation.

If we think a 708 OPS out of our DH position is acceptable or "good," we've got bigger problems than first thought. This position is crying out for a platoon (and has been for months and months)...to no avail.

Eaton looked good yesterday but it hasn't carried over into this one...oh, well.

At this point, hopefully Danaerys' dragons descend on USCF and completely destroy the grass to the point where not even Roger Bossard can make it playable for Tuesday. Frazier and Eaton continuing to stand out individually...at least.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 01:20 PM) Exactly. It's f***ing weird how he's still there. Other than an 80-year-old owner just wants things nice and calm. The media will be back on the Ventura Death Watch again this week. Wouldn't be too enjoyable working in that marketing or ticket office the last month. Crickets. Sox supposedly sell 100,000 more tickets...poof.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 01:17 PM) Cooper should go before Steverson. And that will never happen in a million years. The fact that it will never happen says all you need to know about the dysfunction, where he basically has a lifetime tenured position now.