caulfield12

Except Floyd's value with team-friendly contracts for 2 years might even be more valuable than Danks for just one. You could make arguments either way. There are just too many question marks with Sale, Humber, Peavy and Stewart to do that if you really want to compete for the AL Central in 2012.

But if you want to ensure future Cubs' "fan faith" (and they definitely showed up in droves at Wrigley this past week...and 132,000 in DET).....then you need a big-name manager and GM for that job.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2011 -> 01:57 PM) Caulfireld, almost everyone you mention there except Frasor is a minimum contract guy. He gets himself to legitimately $95 million if he signs buehrle but trades away the 4 he wants to move. But aren't Beckham and Humber different situations? Free Agent: 2012 / Unrestricted....that's not right for Humber, but what exactly will happen? He will have 2+ years of service, they can't just offer him what amounts to a minimum contract after his 2011 season, can they? Only $750,000? Is Gordon eligible for salary arbitration for 2012?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2011 -> 01:54 PM) Actually his numbers for 2011 are pretty close, because he's subtracted Quentin, Danks, Ramirez, and Thornton, and that's nearly $30 million between them. He's missing about $5-7 million from minimum contract guys and the $3.5 mil for Frasor. Yeah, I figured it out (see above). Can the White Sox decline Frasor's option and still offer arbitration? Not saying they would do that, but could they? Or is it all or nothing, accept or decline the $3.75 million club option. He stays or becomes a FA? He's Type B? But I still don't see how they sell letting Danks and Ramirez go to the fanbase and claiming to be "All In" still... They can't. Impossible. Even if KW/Hahn pulled off a Sizemore/Lee/Phillips haul, it wouldn't be until 2013-2014 that some of the fans started to come back on board.

It still doesn't include Frasor. KW's history indicates he has almost always held onto acquired players to justify the trade return. One of the few I can actually remember him letting go was David Riske. Then the bigger increases for Humber and Beckham. Vizquel, Pena, Castro all need to be replaced....DeAza and/or Milledge, minor league reliever and Flowers, possibly Tyler Kuhn depending on how they use Lillibridge Santos, Lillibridge, Sale and Morel aren't accounted for. That could be something like $7.5-12.5 million (especially with Frasor, since he would be at $3.75 alone). No matter what you do, you're still looking at around $100-105 million with Buehrle. None of the savings will be plugged into added payroll in all likelihood. And there's zero veteran presence on the bench going that way. If Ozzie's around, not sure how much he'll like that.

Good material for Chicago talk radio. The lifelong pull of the Cubs versus allegiance/loyalty to JR, who gave him his first big break in the game. Quite the drama.

I was joking. Just funny it turned out perfectly fine we didn't sign the likes of Hinch, Seay and Bobby Hill. Goodwin might a different matter (from 2009).

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 22, 2011 -> 01:25 PM) Cotts has them at $89.25 as of now, without Ramirez and Thornton it goes down $78.75M LF De Aza CF Rios RF Viciedo 3B Morel SS Lillibridge 2B Beckham 1B Konerko C AJP DH Dunn Signing Buehrle for $12M per say puts them at $91M SP Buehrle SP Floyd SP Sale SP Peavy SP Stewart/Humber RP Santos RP Crain RP Reed RP Ohman RP Santiago RP Humber/Stewart Obviously holes, some of which should be filled with talent received in return for Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and Thornton. But at $91M you can take on $15M in salary while chopping $20M from 2011. Is this some new type of software? Kalapse's is the only one that is accurate on a year-by-year future outlay basis. I think you're just adding and subtracting from 2011. That won't work...because of all the built-in salary increases (that I outlined above) and the up-in-the-air addition of Jason Frasor.

"We've been waiting for that Tyler Flowers the last three years," said White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen of his interim everyday catcher, acquired from the Braves in December 2008. "The hitting coach in Triple-A did a great job with him, putting him in the spot where we can count on him again." Tim Laker, Charlotte's hitting coach spoken of by Guillen, also received credit from White Sox hitting coach Greg Walker and Flowers himself for this 2011 development. It certainly was not a process that happened over night. PROMOTE LAKER!!! Next projects...Beckham, Dunn, Morel and Rios

That's part of his "master strategy." To reallocate the money even more efficiently for next year's draft class. It was planned from the beginning. The White Sox did the same when they didn't sign Bobby Seay and AJ Hinch. Haha.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 22, 2011 -> 12:59 PM) If Buerhle goes, it is a product of payroll. If Alexei goes it is a total rebuild. Outside of someone like Steward, Santos or Sale, Alexei about the last person that would leave the Sox, even in a significant meltdown of the team. And Mr. Dayan Viciedo.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 22, 2011 -> 12:52 PM) Which means Buehrle should be more likely to go, not less. If you are going to pull the payroll card, you lose. If you are going to pull the age card, you lose. If you are going to pull their overall ranking card, you lose. I think his whole argument is based on the "value added/plus" benefit of still having Buehrle and Konerko around for the remaining fans and season ticket holders. Their presence alone doesn't justify their costs if the rest of the team is looking like a 70-80 win model. Without Buehrle....Konerko then becomes less and less of a draw, because that team (with Buehrle and Danks both gone) is very unlikely to be competitive in the division race. The only way is if Chris Sale or Jake Peavy won the 2012 American League Cy Young/MVP and Comeback Player of the Year awards.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 22, 2011 -> 12:31 PM) You have to bite the bullet somewhere because of the Rios/Dunn/Peavy contracts. I maintain that it's best to do it with Ramirez because you can get something in return for him and he's not young enough, cheap enough, or frankly good enough to build a team around for the next three years. Getting rid of Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and Thornton would bring an influx of talent in hopefully. It would also put the payroll at $79.25M which allows for Buehrle to be resigned and $15-20M to fill in holes. Ramirez and Thornton will be at $10.5 million next year (Thornton going from $3 to $5.5 million so basically very little in return at that price, his age, and with one pitch). You can estimate Quentin/Danks at $17-18 million combined. I don't see where you're getting another $20 million in savings, though. Pierre/Teahen/Jackson/Linebrink/Vizquel/Castro/Pena.... +1 mill Peavy +2 mill Dunn +2 mill Floyd +0.5 Crain +3.75 Frasor +4.00 AJ +1.00 Ohman +??? Humber increase Beckham, Santos, Sale, Lillibridge, Morel Won't Beckham be eligible for arbitration for next year? Or 2013? At any rate, very conservatively, you're adding $16-19 million dollars right there in increases. And you still have to replace the salaries of Pierre (DeAza/Milledge), Teahen (Kuhn/Lillibridge), Jackson (Stewart), Vizquel (Kuhn/Lillibridge), Castro (Flowers) and Pena (minor leaguer). So essentially you're cutting just Quentin/Thornton/Danks/Ramirez and the rest zeroes itself out with increases and low cost replacements. So let's say we're at $100 million. Add in Buehrle, we're still back at $110-115 range. And the ONLY way we add payroll AT THAT POINT is for bringing back BUEHRLE. Otherwise, we tear everything apart just to get to $95-105....and Konerko becomes almost superfluous. With all that restructuring done (unless KW actually hit on all four of those trades with young, talented, major league ready players), it would be more logical to play Tyler Flowers at 1B for one season just to save MORE money, if you can't deal AJ or don't want to eat more money. You can argue we won't keep Frasor or won't offer arbitration....but that's still not going to make a big difference in the overall payroll picture.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/08/20/30884...r-economic.html This is a very good article expressing in more detail Mr. Hibbard's sentiment. The Chiefs used to have a long waiting list for 15 years....and it is football, not baseball, but it's a well-conceived article that addresses where the sports and entertainment worlds are going in the future. Especially the conflict between the "ballpark/stadium experience" you can get at home versus actually going and paying sky-high prices or being a season ticket holder.

Lillibridge coming into this year against RHP was at .175 average with 501 OPS (177 AB's). Now maybe the greatest Walker miracle since Jesus Walking on Water or Lazarus was raised from the dead has happened... .244 with 801 OPS (82 AB's) in 2011. Can anyone confidently predict that he would put up even a 700-ish OPS against ALL RHP in everyday play? Ozzie is very very selective about who he lets Lillibridge go up against, in order to protect him. Has done the same with Morel and Viciedo last year.

Yeah, it's $2.75 million. But still peanuts, comparatively. signed extension with White Sox 2/3/11 12:$5M, 13:$7M, 14:$9.5M, 15:$10M, 16:$10M club option ($1M buyout) 4 years/$4.75M (2008-11) signed by White Sox 12/21/07 as a free agent from Cuba (via the Dominican Republic) $0.5M signing bonus 08:$0.95M, 09:$1.1M, 10:$1.1M, 11:$1.1M if otherwise eligible for arbitration, Ramirez may opt out of 2011 salary by 12/1/10 if Ramirez opts out, White Sox may exercise $2.75M option for 2011 or go through arbitration with Ramirez (Ramirez opted out and White Sox exercised $2.75M option 12/2/10)

Fine Rock... The problem right now is signing Danks forces you to let go of Buehrle, maybe Floyd, Quentin, Thornton, Ramirez, etc. You simply won't see another $127 million dollar payroll while the economy is the way it is. At the very least, keeping Danks means goodbye to Buehrle. And once Buehrle is gone, then from the overall perspective, you might as well let Konerko go too and get it over with, because holding on to Paul Konerko will make less and less sense going forward. You just can't expect the 2010-11 level of play to continue into his late 30's.

The fact of the matter is that Pierre was really tentative (for whatever reason) the first couple of months. It got to the point where Alexei couldn't trust him on any pop-up or Texas Leaguer plopped into short LF or LCF...the whole problem between those two is that Alexei lost confidence in Pierre to the point where he started to go after everything...balls that should have been called and taken by Pierre. The outfielder, as we all know, almost always has the better play since he's coming forward....just like infielders calls off the P and C if at all possible. So now you're arguing Alexei Ramirez, who has the best range in baseball arguably, should anchor himself near 2B because Alex Rios is getting paid $12.5 million to play Gold Gold defense (since he certainly hasn't hit well enough to justify his contract)...that every pop-up hit to CF, that Alexei has to assume that Rios will misread it and he has to run all the way out there and make the play instead? How can he cover 75% of the entire outfield??? Keep in mind, Alexei Ramirez is earning $1.1 million dollars this season. We always defend Morel based on his rookie status and lower salary....but c'mon, Rios and Pierre are making $21 million combined and Alexei Ramirez should play 3 freakin' positions? What happened to accountability? Yet we punish the guy who has to do the work of 3 players defensively by trading him? That's like firing your best salesmen because you don't want to fire your worst 2 because "they have kids and their wives are unemployed."

while blowing a .22 BAC...that AA, you can't stop him! You can only hope to contain him. If he battled Ditka, a hurricane and all the Transformers (minus Optimus Prime), AA would still come out victorious! KW has done this in the past when he had the surplus of starters. He's already offered Danks once (the Floyd deal) and was quickly rejected. As someone mentioned, he'll make a "public offer" for something like $39 million/3 years to PRETEND we want to keep him (it's usually about PR victories with the Sox in the typical offseason) when the educated baseball fan knows there's simply no way in hell that will get it done. Then he'll quickly be traded for the best package KW and/or the new G.M. can manage to get.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/break...0,5861355.story This has to limit Danks to 5 and $70/75, doesn't it? Of course, he COULD get more on the open market, but that's a pretty strong deal for the Angels....as many were suggesting Danks would get almost as much as what Weaver ended up with. I don't you can make many arguments that Danks has been in Weaver's league the last 2-3 seasons as a pitcher. Not consistently. Danks has been close to a 3 ERA at times (mostly in 2008), but sub 2.00? No way.

Certainly, our starting line-up yesterday. Yet Lillibridge/DeAza/Flowers all bring new dimensions, approaches and "excitement" to what has been a season-long malaise. Viciedo will too, eventually.

Because KW talks to Ozzie and Cooper anytime they bring a pitcher up to the Sox. And he's surely never even heard of Reed (knowing Ozzie) and won't until he's on his 25 man roster and forced to used him.

Heck, if you could take Gavin Floyd's best streaks from 2008-2011, and stick one of them at the start of 2012...he might have the same acclaim as Jimenez. But Gavin's already been there, done that because of his age and busted status position...and not quite having the "big" fastball in the mid to upper 90's.

In fact, Flowers is making a pretty strong statement that we were ready to turn over the keys to him in 2012. Escobar could factor in as replacement for Vizquel....although one can't be sure how well he could play 3B or 2B. Lillibridge really needs to get some experience at 3B, IMO. With Viciedo/DeAza/Milledge/Danks all in the mix, as well as Lillibridge for outfield spots...we should be set there. The biggest question mark is whether Lillibridge only plays against LHP in a platoon, or he's an everyday player on the infield somewhere. That would mean a trade or "surrender" of Morel/Ramirez/Beckham though. None of those things are likely if they legitimately want to compete in 2012. They won't be spending their way into contention. Cuddyer already turned down $12 million and 2 years from the Twins. In all likelihood, he'll get $15-18 and 2 from the Yankees or Red Sox. The Yankees are finally tired of Swisher, supposedly. If Reddick's the long-term plan for the Red Sox, he makes much less sense there.

Ozzie loves his veterans. Enough said.