29thandPoplar

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, when I think of Aardsma, I really think of him as such a young kid, and I think of Jenks as a 40 year old pitcher who's been around forever. Aardsma has been in the majors longer than Jenks has. Let me check to see if I said anything about age. Be right back. No I didn't. I did say something about experience and guess what, Jenks has more than Aardsma.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WHO!?!?!?!?! What manager wants to stick with young players over veterans when given the choice? You know what is kind of humorous about this is he gave an opp. to an inexperienced pitcher today in a key sitaution and the player failed and Guillen is getting his rear chewed on for not going with a more experienced guy.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Absolutely ridiculous. Young players can't tolerate Ozzie? That is a ridiculous excuse. If that is the case then I don't want those certain young players on this team. It is sad that you have to coddle certain young players. I doubt the Sox ever go into full rebuilding mode under KW. southsideirish, agree completely. Especially after they came out with that mission statement this winter, saying they will try to compete for a championship every year. Having been around Williams I do not think he's cut out for a total rebuilding, in terms of his competitive nature.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is my last post to you about this, as all you're doing is saying that everything is just a "generalization". Yes, I'm one of Ozzie's biggest critics on this site. However, go back and check the game thread if you want. I had no problem with MacDougal starting the 9th inning. I even said that every manager in baseball would do that. However, once it got to the situation where Hunter was the make or break batter for the game, that's when you have to bring in your best reliever. If you don't think that Jenks is our best reliever, then you must be watching a different team play. He's been the lone bright spot for the entire pitching roster the last few weeks. Well that's because it is what you're doing, generalizing ie "everyone on this site" "Aardsma cant pitch inside" etc etc. If you don't like being questioned on your generalizations then hey dont make them. What does MacDougal coming in for the 9th have to do with it. The discussion was about Aardsma and Jenks and players performing and Guillen. If you want to bring MacDougal into it, fine, he walked a guy too. Again, players not executing. You are also stating that I apparantly do not think Jenks is the best reliever, please point out where I said that. Generally the best reliever is the closer, he is. Since he has trouble in nonsave situations I believe it is fair game for the mgr to put someone else in there, otherwise he would be 2nd guessed, not that he cares I suspect, but he would be 2nd guessed. I also suspect you would 2nd guess him because as you correctly identify you are one of his biggest critics and I am simply pointing out in my opinion a lot of your criticisms of the mgr are really the players not performing. See if you can get your arms around that. Sorry if you do not seemingly like my debate with you but I struggle with people making generalizations. Bottom line it didnt work out today, and hazarding a guess I would say it was all the walks and the offense failure after three innings and the Twins players getting the job done and the White Sox players didnt.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He pitched last Friday. Jenks is the best reliever we have, and it's not even close. Since every single f***ing person on this site was begging for Jenks instead of Aardsma, can we please knock it off about how everyone would have been second guessing Ozzie? Another generalization? Everyone on this site, ok, I guess if you say so then it's correct. Not me but I am a nobody on this site I suppose, all I wanted was a guy who could throw strikes and not walk a guy. You know full well people would 2nd guess him for bringing him in to a nonsave but if it makes you feel better to not admit it that is ok by me. He gets 2nd guessed in every loss and from what I see mostly by you. I will continue to state the players need to execute better or fix them or get better players. It was a team loss, offense shut down after 3 ings and how many walks were there. Bobby could have walked the guy, guess what, 2nd guess time, whether you think so or not.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In the month of May, Jenks has a 0.00 ERA and a WHIP blow 1. During that same span, Aardsma's ERA is 9.00 and his WHIP is around 2.25. For the biggest out of the game, and in a walk-off situation, you better have Jenks on the mound. I don't think there's anyone on here that would have been mad at Ozzie if Jenks came in and allowed the run to score. Ahh now the May stats. Mgrs get 2nd guessed all the time adn book it he would have been 2nd guessed but if you say he would not have then ok. The aspect of Jenks not having pitched in 9 days ie the rust factor or he for some reason has trouble in those nonsave spots has nothing to do with it as it does not fit what you wanted, well ok. The players have to execute and most of them did not after the third inning.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think there's a plethora of things going on these days causing us to lose. However, we need better strategical managing to help this team when certain personnel is struggling. Aardsma can't have any confidence these days, yet we brought him into possibly the most difficult position a reliever can find himself in. After seeing Aardsma walk the bases loaded in his last game, I'll take my chances with the solid control of Jenks. And if a K isn't critical, then Jenks is definitely a better option than Aardsma, as Jenks hasn't allowed a homer all season. Hmmm, ok well they both are averaging about a walk every other inning (Jenks + Aards.) Again it was all about getting an out, what does allowing homers have to do with it, zip. Sure I would like a do-over and see if Jenks could have got the out but that won't happen. Why does Gardenhire bring in Nathan in a nonsave, to me its simple, he knows the White Sox have guys with trouble throwing strikes and further he knows he has patient hitters who will scrap out a run. Connecting the dots again, the players have to execute or you fix the players or you get better players. Also for whatever reason Jenks has trouble in those non save situations, don't know why but if he brings in Jenks and Jenks lets Hunter get on there will surely be people and press and announcers saying Jenks does bad in those situations so why did the mgr bring him in. Catch 22. What is not a catch22 is the players are not executing and they can't seem to start executing and as I said some of that blame goes to the coaches and mgr who are supposed to prepare these guys. Rephrase, help prepare these guys. It is not about which righthander can't throw one single strike. It is about all these guys underperforming and not playing smart.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I've seen Aardsma pitch probably more than anyone, as I watch almost all Cubs games also. Aardsma rarely pitched inside at the beginning of the year. Like during that Indians game where he was great, he was just painting the outside corner to righties. The catcher rarely sets up inside for him on the mound. Also, I disagree that Jenks best pitch is his fastball. Jenks fastball is actually his set-up pitch, as he strikes out hitters with his offspeed stuff almost every time. I can think of only a few strike outs he has this year from blowing his fastball past the hitter. I doubt you've seen Aardsma pitch more than me, but hey, whatever you say. We will also disagree that Aardsma didn't or cannot pitch inside. Of course he can't do much of anything right now, you just saw it as well as me. Can't get it over the plate anywhere or anyways. With two outs a K was not critical, just get an out so whether Jenks K's more on hooks doesn't much matter. Lots of Sox fans complain about bringing in Jenks for a non save situation or for more than one inning anyways. You saw all the walks today. You saw, whether on gameday or on tv, walks from an 18 game winner and lots of them I might add. Then you saw them from the set up guy. Then you saw one from another right hander. Who is to say Jenks doesn't walk the guy, we will never know but he also has had an alarming tendancy to put guys on base with walks. The players have to execute, guess what once again they did not. I am not convinced all of these players are playing hard and the onus there is on the manager and his staff. I do know for sure they are very often not playing smart and there is some onus there on the manager and his staff and also on the guys who assemble the team and recommend who to acquire. It is easy, as you seem to do most games the last 10 days, to scapegoat the manager. The reality is it is much more than that.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's another reason Aardsma is a bad match-up. He can't pitch inside against righty hitters. If he tried, his ball would tail right into them and hit them. Hunter might have hit a hanging curve, but everyone knows his best swings are against fastballs. Heck, even Farmer on the radio said that it wasn't a good match-up for the Sox. What you said is it was a bad match up because of fastball tendancies. You are making lots of generalizations here with nothing to back it up, other than saying things a million times. Aardsma was pitching damn well inside earlier this year. It's not so much he can't, he showed he could and Sox fans loved him. His confidence and command are awful now and he needs to fix it, preferably in Charlotte for a few weeks IMO. Hunter's best swings are like most players best swings, when pitches stay out over the plate. Hunter has trouble with good sliders. If his best swings, as "everyone knows" are vs. fb's, well what is Jenks best pitch, I believe it is a fastball.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you bring in Jenks in that situation, and he gets Hunter out, then he easily can go in the next inning. It's not like he would have to throw too many pitches in the 9th, and he would face one batter at the max. Aardsma is a horrible, horrible match-up against Hunter due to their fastball tendencies. How about that rolling breaking ball he hit off of Garland? That wasn't a fastball. Bill Melton was on the postgame and he said it ticks him off because other teams know how to get hunter out. Basically you pitch him in on his hands and then he will chase offspeed stuff down and away. Let's face it this was a total team loss.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> These players are flat out letting the Manager, the GM and the fans down at this point. Offense dies, the pitching dies, we walk 10 people. WTF sums it up nicely

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Like how we didn't pitch MacDougal last night in a blow out....it sure would be nice to try and get his confidence up in non-pressure outings before throwing him out into a tie game. He was for all intents and purposes unavailable last nite due to working with Cooper on mechanical stuff, per Cooper on the pregame.

That's a good inning for Thornton, 1-2-3.

Well he walked the leadoff hitter and he has how many, 5 walks in this game? That is bad baseball.

They put themselves in a position to be lucky. Meaning, the Twins.

Chris Heintz ties the game. Six runs on 5 hits.

QUOTE(South Side Fireworks Man @ May 30, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> According to Hawk, it's the ump's fault Torii Hunter got that base hit! Jon will pitch out of this. That is not what he said, he put the onus on JG to not throw breaking balls, indicating you have to adjust. I guess it's all how the announcers words are interpreted though.

QUOTE(WSoxMatt @ May 30, 2007 -> 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LF will be for Pods when he returns unfortunately On a very short leash in my estimation. I expect them to give Owens a shot here fairly soon. They "say" that this guy Andy Gonzalez can play all 3 OF positions but he is shall we say an adventure out there. I guess not unlike a few Sox OFs.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Then who's in left field, Mackowiak? Now with Ozuna out, yup, I guess that is it unless/until a personnel change is made. Which I suspect will be relatively soon.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ May 30, 2007 -> 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You leave the starters in, unless you are in a one run game and you have a specific matchup you can exploit late in the game. You dont pull starters in the middle of a game to exploit the middle reliever. The question I was answering was fathoms about a lineup featuring Erstad and Thome vs. a LHP. It had nothing to do with advocating pulling a starting position player to exploit a middle reliever. I was suggesting Terrero as a starting option vs. a starting LHP even though I am not a big fan of Terrero as he is an undisciplined hitter in my opinion.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Here's the question I have about our roster right now: with the way things are constructed, don't we basically have to play both Erstad and Thome against every LHP we face? It's not exactly a good thing to have two miserable hitters against LHP in the lineup every game. Well you could put Terrero out there for Erstad.

There you go a 1-2-3 for Garland, he needed that.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ May 30, 2007 -> 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Rock...I'm thankful you are in this game thread. Christ you'd think this team hadn't won a game yet all season based on some of the stuff people are spewing. Hey boss, preach on. Saw your comment in another thread about getting more athletes, agree.

My goodness now he really missed that one.

QUOTE(South Side Fireworks Man @ May 30, 2007 -> 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Last inning with two strikes on him, Dye took a pitch right at the knees over the heart of the plate. The umpire called it a ball. The difference is, Dye eventually struck out swinging on a ball a foot outside. The Twins don't do that. I am watching the game, I thought it was low but your point stands.