michelangelosmonkey

I mean yes...I appreciate not being part of the chorus of dunces. If you don't think the White Sox made really, really, really serious attempts at signing Machado and Wheeler I just can't help you. If you really think the White Sox signed Machado's brother in law and his best friend while Machado was contemplating which team to sign with only as a ploy to fool White Sox fans into false hope?? By all reports they offered Wheeler more money than anyone. In 2019 they tried finesse and money, in 2020 they tried brute force. Neither worked...players chose places they considered more glamorous. Congratulations on being part of the majority that hates their favorite team.

Yes that's pedantic...no one thought that 2005 team would win anything. It seemed like a rebuild year so no reason to spend big on payroll...and then they won and they paid big money for 7 years to try to regain that magic. So my point remains...when they think they are in a window they spend big. As for wasting money...at least in that 2006-2015 period yes. I think they were misled by that lightning in a bottle team and wasted resources on old bad players to regain it. This team is SO much better than any of those teams.

When did I say any of those things??? They were contenders and they spent big...80's 90's, 00's and tens. You can argue that we were poor at talent evaluation. I think with all the Hahn hate we ignore the fact that KW took over that 2000 team that was a young 95 win team and #1 farm system and left in 2013 a barren wasteland. As for the "big city" White Sox with an exciting young team (that played poorly) were 19th in attendance and 7th in payroll last year...and we slam the owner. Their TV and radio packages have been second rate as well. Honestly I think the Sox are idiots if they don't sign Judge. Chicago fans are front runners and will flood to GRF if the Sox are a hot topic. Adding Judge makes this lineup scary.

Yes that's the fair complaint. But we did win a WS in that time...and spending big to try to repeat in a time when the team must have been banking money made sense. Swinging and missing in the Sale/Shields/Quintana/Abreu period was a muddled shot...Hahn took over in 2013 the last of the bigger payrolls...and honestly a team with four stars and a bunch of garbage (see Angels of the last few years) doesn't work. Hahn fairly quickly saw that and started the rebuild...I get the anger over the five year rebuild...and last year royally sucked...but most teams climbing the mountain have a year like that.

Seriously...are you twelve years old? I lost the debate because all the evidence was on my side? 2019 was the year to spend big? That 2018 with the stocked rotation of Shields, injured Dylan Cease, Gio with the worst ERA in baseball, Dylan Covey and Reylo? The year after our outfield was Delmonico, Engel and Avisail? Matt Davidson our DH? Yoan was our 2b coming off a .700 OPS year with bad defense? Yolmer was our 3b? That team was no where near ready to cook and that's when you want to push all the chips in...not now when we one of the top bullpens in baseball, one of the top rotations in baseball and a potential all star at 7 positions. Signing Judge makes us a top three WS favorite. Signing Harper in 2019 would have made us a serious wild card contender.

That's NOT what I'm saying...over and over again I have said that when they have a contention window for a number of years they have a top ten payroll. For forty years we have seen this pattern. You want to b**** about poor evaluation of major league talent or poor drafting...fine. But to whimper about the Sox not spending money is demonstrably wrong. Top ten payrolls in half of the last 16 years...2022, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006 and by the way I suspect never in the top ten of attendance or tv revenues.

Yes everyone agrees our contention winner is nearly over. Good grief...this board. 27 is when players hit their peak...there's zero chance that Vaughn, Robert, Sosa, Jiminez, Cease, Kopech, Yoan, Crochett will get better than they were in 2022. No reason to believe we will have a payroll above the 13th best. No reason to think Colas, Montgomery, Vera, Popeye, Schultz, Ramos will be any good.

2011 White Sox had top 5 payroll, 2010 it was 7. In every decade in JR's ownership we've had a top 5 payroll. Sorry if I get exasperated by the non-stop, every thread, people bitching about ownerships cheapness. I only do it because it's not true...but don't let me interfere with the b**** fest. I will stop trolling.

That is a silly arbitrary number. Comparing 2020 contracts to 1980, 1990, 2000 contracts is meaningless. The question is will JR pay for a big contract and he has often...Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Albert Bell, Carlton Fisk, Julio Cruz. Top five payrolls in all of those eras...and we just freed up $35 million with Abreu and Keuchel. I'm not predicting it but to say speculation is impossible is just meatballery.

Well self loathing is not the only option to a down year. Last year you had the following players miss 58 or more games Grandal, Tim Anderson, Robert, Jiminez and Moncado. AJ Pollock was second on the team in games played. Sheets, Harrison and Engel were 4, 5 and 6. Lynn, Bummer, Crochet, Kopech lost significant time. Grandal, Moncado and Keuchel had horrific years. TLR was the manager...and they still managed to finish at .500. This remains a team that has all the parts to win the WS...now go sign Judge...or at least dream about it until he signs with the Dodgers (who have won nearly 2/3 of their games for 6 years and have one championship to show for it).

Soxtalk has gotten so cringy. Every single post/poster seems to hate everything about the team. There are no optimism threads and any thread of interesting speculation is soon buried under an avalanche of “funny” hate. A troll on Soxtalk is someone that says something positive…but here goes…trolling. As I have pointed out frequently…in the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s when Sox were in a competitive window they were top five payroll. JR does not spend heavily in times of non-contention…which as a businessman makes sense. We are now clearly in a window of contention (yes last year was painful…look at Phillies of 2020/21). We spent $215 on payroll last year and top 5 was $240. This idea that we will only spend $180 is pretty much the same nonsense from a couple of years ago when we would never spend over $150. We have Keuchel $18.5 mill and Abreu $17 mill dropping off our books….they could basically take that money and sign Aaron Judge. Despite the reality that we have not signed any big fish it is clear that they were trying to land big fish with serious offers to Machado and Wheeler. Spotrac has us with $145 committed for 2023. So why not Aaron Judge? He’s got a career .980 OPS. He’s been a plus defender for most of his career. He’s an outfielder which is clearly our biggest need. He can even play a serviceable CF in a pinch ( as can Colas). An outfield of Judge/Colas/Robert could be elite offensively and defensively. It’s a single move that can restore faith, sell tickets and give JR a chance for that last ring. We have the budget, he fits a need lets blow up the world.

Hardball Times aging curve. Abreu entering year 36 and Vaughn entering year 25. At 35/24 Abreu put up a .820 OPS down from previous year and forty points below his career average and Vaughn put up a .750 OPS up fifty points from age 23. And remember...Vaughn sat out his age 22 year because of Covid shutdown and his age 21 year he never played above A ball. He's aging and growing into his body while learning how to play in the major leagues and being forced into a new position. I would be surprised if Vaughn didn't put up a better OPS than Abreu this year. I love Abreu but I don't want to give 10% of the annual budget for the next three years to his 36-37-38 years. I also think that Vaughn will put up an .850 OPS at first base for the next five years. Without digging deeply into it I think the lost COVID year (minor leagues + Kopek) hurt the Sox window more than Tony LaRussa. So many young guys on the cusp that should have helped last year but lost a full year of development. http://www.fangraphs.com/library/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Screenshot-2015-12-09-at-8.54.11-PM-e1449712514782.png

Who ranks them? My god you act as if these ranking agencies have some sort of magical predictive power. I remember that #1 ranked White Sox farm system in 2000. Hats off to all the smart guys. I really can't recall the guys having Semien and his 30 WAR by 30 being considered a can't miss prospect. 2014 he was listed behind Erik Johnson and Matt Davidson. Geniuses. Sox have a whole lot of exciting players under 27 and then another wave at 21 and younger...which seems sensible...to all except the "look at their rankings" crowd. As always...It takes me a few hours of writing on Soxtalk to remember why I never want to comment.

OK I surrender. Ober is better than Lance Lynn. You would trade Dylan Cease for Sonny Gray straight up. We'd have to throw in picks to get Archer, the 33 year old, career 5 ERA starter, for Gio because of 5 bad starts after being one of the best pitchers in baseball the previous three years? You'd trade the 24 year old Robert for the 28 year old Buxton but have to throw in some extra. Jeffers and his .600 OPS is better than Grandal and his career .800 OPS? How much would we have to include with the 27 year old 12 career WAR Moncada to get the 30 year old 6 career WAR Urshella. I appreciate the deep analysis.

So it doesn't count? My god we are a self loathing fanbase.

Honestly man...this is creating a hate cloud. Hahn tried for three years to win with the Sale/Quintana/Abreu core and it wasn't enough so he blew it up beautifully. We had to go through the rebuild which again seems like it was great. All the whining on here that the Sox never ever have gone to the playoffs two years in a row and then when we do..."big f'ing deal"???? As for the 30th ranked farm team bs...I argued about that in the off season and was shouted down. There are some REALLY good players on this 30th ranked farm system they are just really young. Colas, Montgomery, Vera, Sosa, Kath, Ramos...its easy to say "sox suck look at their farm ranking" without even bothering to look at the potentials. They could have 2 or 3 in top hundred by end of the year.

I hated the Rodon situation too. He would have been my #1 priority in the off season. Still it was a "heads you lose tails he wins" contract. If his arm fell off you wasted $18 mill and if he was great...he was gone. Anyway Keuchel's $18 mill drops off next year, resign Abreu for $10 mill. Maybe we go sign Rodon next year 5 years $125 million.

.600 baseball and back to back playoff appearances in the last two years???? Baseball is a marathon and to think there is no hope is stupid. Last year on June 29th the Braves were 4 games under .500.

* You can't do that...they have played near .600 baseball in 20 and 21 and made the play offs the last two years. You can't throw out 2020 or the poor Dodgers would be the greatest team over the last 10 years without a WS. * Its hilarious how the narrative went "Sox will never spend money"...which I debunked on Soxtalk a dozen times...to "well they will spend money but stupidly". It does suck that 4 of their 6 highest paid players have been injured for a big chunk of the season...but is that stupid? * Pollock is not a big problem. He is a professional player. * Leury is a bad contract because it was $5 mill a year for three years which you could have gotten pretty much the same from Mendick for nothing. Still it is nice that the organization is loyal to guys that have put in time. Just sad that because of injuries I have to see stupid Leury in every game.

OK I guess we need to define "bad" contracts. Something like 5% or more of the total payroll for multiple years in the future? Hosmer, Snell, Manea, Pomeranz, Myers for the Padres? The Sox may have some misspent money but nothing like Will Myers 6 years at $15 mill a year or Hosmer 8 years at $18 mill per year. Keuchel salary is off the books after this year and we got a Cy Young type season out of him in one of the years. Lynn and Grandal have some risk going forward but they are both coming off great seasons and have been hurt this year and we are only truly committed to them for one more year. You can b**** about a lot of things but Sox managing their payroll has been sensible.

I know you have a deep abiding love for the Padres and are just on Soxtalk to troll....but come on. I'm not going "out of my way" to ignore the Padres players in their prime or past prime. I also didn't mention Abreu, Lynn, Hendricks or Tim Anderson who are four of the White Sox best players. My point was that the Sox core are young guys and the Padres core team is built for this year. Yes the 35 year old Darvis is having a great first half. And Musgrove has had a great April, May as he usually does. But if you were drafting the pitchers from today moving forward you would take Cease, Kopech, Gio then Musgrove, Lynn or Darvish. And why would I compare anyone to the White Sox emergency starters? They are not consequential to the team. The Padres two top spot starters are Clevinger and Snell who they paid a lot for and gotten very little out of. The entire future of the Padres is sitting on Tatis shoulders and he has been hurt as much as Eloy and if he can't stick at SS his value drops a lot as a LF. That was my only comparison between Tatis and Eloy...two superstar hitters that have been hurt a lot. if I were comparing future value I would say Robert vs Tatis is a better comparison and at this point I'm not sure I would make that trade. Your final bit is funny...the only way for the Sox to have a chance this year is if 7 things go right...Even though injuries are healing and regression to the mean all seem to favor Sox hitters...while the Padres will certainly continue on their current pace...even though they did the same thing last year they finished the season going 20 games under .500 for the last two months of the year?

Why? Hahn's built a roster that has won the equivalent of 90 games two years in a row with a restrictive payroll. Hahn's adds of Graveman and Cueto have been very good while Pollock was a guy almost everyone on Soxtalk liked as an add. I know it's Soxtalk position that everyone in the organization from top to bottom are idiots but still... top three talent roster wise with no bad contracts (Well, Leury, but only bad because...why?). In the off season if we had signed Conforto and Marcus Semien, giving up compensatory picks and $300 million in salary, Soxtalk would have been over the moon...and now we would be in a much worse position. It's HARD to build a championship roster (Phillies? Angels? Dodgers?) but we have built a competitive team and we just need to remember that as we float through the doldrums.

I agree with that...which is why, in spite of the bad half season, you have to be excited about Gio, Cease, Kopech, Crochet about to hit a really good three year stretch and Vaughn, Robert, Jiminez and Yoan doing the same. Angels prove that you can't build around two stars but I'm pretty sure you can build around 8.

I think my point was that didn't happen LAST year for the Padres...from Aug 10th on the Pads went 12-34. The Sox have had everything go wrong this 70 games but they aren't 22 games under .500 in that stretch. And for all the praise you give to the Padres...they are actually not a up and coming young team. Looking at their key players that are 27 or younger....Kim 26 at shortstop with career .640 OPS. Tatis who has been their version of Eloy. Grisham, 25, who had been good but has been worse than Moncada this year. Abrams, 21, who can't hit anything. Azocar, 26, same. Gore, 23 has been a good pitcher but pitched 50 bad innings last year in the minors and out all of 2020 so talk about ramping up. The Padres are getting it done with a bunch of guys 29 or older. They have lots of holes to fill and lots of payroll committed. I wouldn't want to trade rosters.

* OK your whole "seasons" thing is such nonsense. Moncada has played in 30 games this year and he's been obviously injured in many. But the last three years he has been the 6th best 3B in baseball by fWar...better than Manny Machado. And he's 27, not 6 seasons, old. Yes Jiminez has been hurt last year and this year which is frustrating because he his 45 home runs in his first 175 games at 23. As I mentioned Buxton was also injury prone until suddenly he was the best player in baseball...sometimes it takes time. Robert has put up a 7.3 bWar after his first 183 games AT TWENTY FOUR, not three seasons. *To say "many guys hit their athletic peak at 26" is just meaningless. There were two big in depth studies and they say 28 or 30 for peak....you try to trash two studies by saying 'look at a couple of data points'. Sure some will do that earlier but which White Sox young player do you think has hit his peak and will never be better??? *As for your "average age" thing...a meaningless stat because the back end of the White Sox roster is filled with old guys because they are trying to win a championship. Their core best players are still very young and likely to get better. * Of course there's reason for impatience. But worrying about 2024's payroll seems like you are hunting for gloom. The Sox are 4 games under .500 with 88 to play. The injuries have been crazy. To date Davis Martin and Jimmy Lambert combined have started more games than Lance Lynn. VV and DK combined have more starts than Cease. Bummer, Kelly, Crochett and Liam have missed big chunks of the season...that group of four would have constituted one of the best bullpens in baseball last year and this year they are hurt. But guys are coming back. If they win 62% of their remains games they end up at 90 wins. I'm hoping for that.