michelangelosmonkey

But in effect you are giving up free outs in the field or free outs at the plate. Sanchez was a GG 2b and would never give up an out in the field but was an automatic out at the plate and he can't find a job. All players strengths AND weaknesses will be magnified in the playoffs...or maybe it's just random because SSS. I think you are overly simplifying a legitimate argument. It's not Bad defense=bad player or good defense = good player. If we say player 1 is a 5 offense and 5 defense, and player two is a 9 offense and a 2 defense...player two would be better. I'm sure someone out there has done the analytics on it but I think for a year Vaughn in RF would be interesting. As for the wager...well they already have Engel who I think will figure in a lot to RF. It's not important for us to bet...but yes, I think they will spend more money at 2B this offseason than RF.

What do you think Semien will cost? I saw 6/$138 somewhere. A top five payroll is $190...and Sox are at $156. So let's say a $30 mill bump from that. If we get Semien for $23 per, trade Kimbrell's $16 and offer Rodon 3/$56 you could sign a relief pitchers for $5. It could work.

I think this is the point. We will have a budget. I think we drop $100 million + on a single contract this off season. The question isn't "Is Conforto good...because he is...he would be fine addition to the team and I wouldn't b****. But given we only get one...do you want Conforto in RF and Romy at 2b or do you want Vaughn in RF and Semien at 2b. That is an easy choice for me. I also would not bet $1000 that Conforto will end up with a higher WAR in RF than Vaughn...but I'd happily bet $1,000 that Semien has a higher WAR than Romy. I wouldn't mind getting in that time machine and undoing the Madrigal trade and then we could have confidently put money into Conforto but we are stuck with reality.

Yes and my point is you can build around offense or defense. Engel has elite defense and speed...he was hurt this past year...if we want defense first and save money for Semiens...why not just him instead of $100 million to Conforto? Or you could just use Vaughn and deal with his defensive learning curve.

You don't have to be a dick about it. I only use Manny as an example. I think it is entirely possible that in a full healthy year Jiminez and Vaughn can put up a combined .875 OPS. That's a LOT of offensive making up for a few missed fly balls.

Yes and we do have actual replacement outfielders (all the Cubans) in the system...we just need a two year fix and having Eloy and Vaugh hitting 75 homers and letting a few fly balls drop is ok

So the question is...do Eloy and Vaughn create more runs offensively than they subtract defensively. I think they will both be elite hitters and subpar defenders....Conforto has a negative dWar every year of his career. If defensive is so important why pay him $100 million? Are we certain going forward he will outhit Vaughn? OK he's lefty but elite right handed hitters HAVE to be good against right handed pitchers too or they can't put up .900 OPS. Manny Ramirez was one of the worst defenders of all time and yet managed to put up an average 5 WAR over a ten year period. You state conclusively that "an outfield can hide one bad defensive player..." but If you could replicate Manny Ramirez in RF and LF...don't you do it and let Robert just try to catch everything? Especially if by having those stone gloves in RF and LF you can add 40 homers at 2b?

I'm not sure how to properly value these things. Firstly I think Vaughn, Sheets and Jiminez are professional athletes under 25 and they can get better. And while I respect defense...you get to chose an outfield (in their prime): 1) Manny Ramirez, Greg Luzinski and Ken Griffey Jr or 2) Paul Blair, Max Kepler and Engel. Don't you win more with one than two? Bad defense doesn't matter if the offense is great, right? Derrick Jeter was a terrible defensive SS but went to a million all star games. Andrelton Simmons has had some of the greatest defensive years ever...would you trade Tim Anderson for him? Yes it was clownish watching Manny in Boston's outfield all those years while he was clubbing us over the head with his bat. I understand it would be nice to have someone good at both...but if we spend our big money on one player...isn't Semien's plus defensive and 40 homers at 2b way more valuable than a guy that will save some defensive runs in RF?

I'm pretty sure I agree with you on TA...but let's enjoy 2022,23, 24 with him and not worry about the second half of the window yet. They drafted his replacement this year. I also don't think you can be "definite" about who they will sign. Still I don't love RR...he had a great 2021 but do you want to pay a 30 year old pitcher coming off his career year? He's pitched a 1,000 innings, mostly in the NL, with a career FIP above 4. Rodon is younger, with less wear on the tires, better career FIP all in the AL and when he pitched he was elite in 2021. In fact I think the only reason they don't resign Rodon is if their medical people say his arm is going to fall off. Hahn said an interesting thing about the team having 1500 innings to pitch and needing to find the best pitchers to fill it. I feel like there is a re-think going on in baseball about that 32 start, 200 inning pitcher so getting Rodon as an elite 150 inning a year guy is really valuable. I suspect they agreed with Rodon and Boras to let Rodon try to get the best payday possible without a compensation pick attached...but give the White Sox a chance to swoop in at the end. Honestly there is not a better match for the Sox out there than the April-July Rodon and his end of the year fatigue and past injury history is going to drag down his price. Would a 5/$90 contract be crazy as long as you had a bunch of injury settlements built in?

??? You list six sort of random points that have nothing to do with my comment which was basically...it's untrue that White Sox are cheap when in a competitive window, and, Semien on this team and they will score 9 runs a game. But regarding your points: 1) Dodgers took 8 years to break through...playoffs are random and the White Sox are still very early in their window...almost all their star players are 26 or younger. 2) Truth...1994 was my most bitter year as a fan...that team was the best of my life. 3) Hahn threw out numbers in his presser about defensive alignments...not sure I really understood but clearly they are looking at numbers but different numbers than we are. This year was an amazingly complicated year with Eloy, Robert, Madrigal and Yaz missing vast amounts of the year, Leury played the 4th most games of any player and Keuchel had an ERA of over 5..if you told me those 6 things would happen and we would win 93 games...a fair person would say that TLR did an amazing job. 4) Come on...the offseason is 15 minutes in. It wouldn't shock me to see them trade Kimbrel and sign Rodon for 3/40. Or keep Kimbrel for a killer bullpen...or sign Robbie Ray. Let's see how it plays out. 5) They stunk in the playoffs....in a sport where we measure by hundreds of games you can't draw conclusions on 5. See Dodgers. 6) Why would the front office not try to win the WS? That is a ridiculous take. Last off season they added the fireman of the year and a finalist for the CY Young. Not every move worked out but this team is loaded with talent. I remember five years ago thinking the Nationals would win the WS as they were stacked...and it took years but they finally won it....I thought the same about the Dodgers...and it took them nearly a decade of 90 win teams. I thought the same about the Braves at the end of 2020. You bring together a ton of talent and then you wait for it to explode. This team will explode at some point...we are all too impatient.

I came here to read about the exciting concept of the White Sox adding Semien's 40 home run power and plus defense to a team that is already stacked...and of course it is nothing but the constant idiotic narrative of the White Sox being a cheap team...I know I have written it a hundred times...but the 00's, 90's and 80's when they had good teams they were a top five payroll...some one wrote in another thread about the 2005 team only being 15th in payroll...or some such nonsense...no one expected the 2005 team to be great...attendance wasn't great initially...but then they won, fans came out in droves and the next year they were 4th in payroll and again in 2007 and 5th in 2008. Yes they have also always been cheap when the team is bad...as a businessman this makes perfect sense to me. A top five payroll in 2021 would have been $190 million. The likely increase in attendance pays for that (Sox fans have proven over the years they will come out for a winner). So given their current commitments they can EASILY afford Semien. So adding him and letting Vaughn play right field...your worst hitter is probably lefty Sheets at DH who put up an .800+ OPS as a rookie. That team will score 9 runs a game.

Caulfield I would be happy to send you some optimism juice. It's the offseason and the time for hope...and as I have written now multiple times...it seems very likely (barely a strike) that our attendance will boom and JR always spends when attendance is big. We have been very cautious with our money to this point (I don't think any really bad contracts right now) so it might be the year to swing for the fences. Also I didn't see where Rodon was lost...I thought QO is the route to go if they still want him. You could make the argument to get Robbie Ray instead...both lefties...both dominant when their stuff is good. I just think RR will get a bigger offer but if you have one BIG contract to offer...Semien or RR...I'm good with either....I just think you can get Rodon on a short term deal because of the risk.

I don't hate the idea of trading the crumbling K's for reallocation of salary...but I also don't hate the idea of using Vaughn in RF everyday, give Collins one more chance (I know, I know...I just can't help but be tantalized by lefty power hitting potential) sign Semien and Rodon and keep Kimbrell for a chance at a dominating bullpen. Semien would be...what $25 a year? Rodon $20...and you still have a few dollars left over from my $50 million budget expansion to sign Leury.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Kimbrel wasn't the same dominant pitcher. Kimbrel had 3.6 WAR in 2017 and was amazing....16 strike outs per nine/ WHIP of .68. He had a "down" year in 2018, and still had a 2.3 WAR, 2.7 ERA, struck out 14 batters per 9, 42 saves, 5 wins...and then saved six games in the playoffs.. He pitched a whopping 73 innings that year which probably led to his arm problems in 2019...he only pitched 20 inning that year...and then 15 innings in the COVID year. Then this year through July he was again amazing like he has been most of his career. Through 36 innings he was having one of the great relief years of all time...and yes he was terrible over 23 innings with the White Sox, but we give Rodon and others an excuse of being tired at the end of the year. Why don't we give the same pass to Kimbrel? He is getting older and I think it would be crazy to sign him to a three year extension at $16 million per year...but to bring him back for one more shot doesn't seem crazy...and yes the money...it's a lot to spend for relievers but as I wrote in a different thread, the White Sox baseline attendance historically seems around 20,000 a game...when they are really good (mid 90's, mid-00's) they draw over 30,000...and peaked at 36,000. If they draw 32,000 a game on average the next five years that should easily free up an extra $50 million in payroll over base payroll. JR has had top five payrolls in the 90s and 00s and I think he will again.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Kimbrel wasn't the same dominant pitcher. Kimbrel had 3.6 WAR in 2017 and was amazing....16 strike outs per nine/ WHIP of .68. He had a "down" year in 2018, and still had a 2.3 WAR, 2.7 ERA, struck out 14 batters per 9, 42 saves, 5 wins...and then saved six games in the playoffs.. He pitched a whopping 73 innings that year which probably led to his arm problems in 2019...he only pitched 20 inning that year...and then 15 innings in the COVID year. Then this year through July he was again amazing like he has been most of his career. Through 36 innings he was having one of the great relief years of all time...and yes he was terrible over 23 innings with the White Sox, but we give Rodon and others an excuse of being tired at the end of the year. Why don't we give the same pass to Kimbrel? He is getting older and I think it would be crazy to sign him to a three year extension at $16 million per year...but to bring him back for one more shot doesn't seem crazy...and yes the money...it's a lot to spend for relievers but as I wrote in a different thread, the White Sox baseline attendance historically seems around 20,000 a game...when they are really good (mid 90's, mid-00's) they draw over 30,000...and peaked at 36,000. If they draw 32,000 a game on average the next five years that should easily free up an extra $50 million in payroll over base payroll. JR has had top five payrolls in the 90s and 00s and I think he will again.

Seems like White Sox attendance baseline is about 20,000 fans a game. When they are really good...mid 90's, mid 00's...they averaged over 30,000 a game. Last year after they opened up to full attendance it was 27,000 a game...with still some COVID hesitancy. At the peak, 2006 they drew more than 36,000 a game. I think this is a very exciting team, Cubs are on the downside, people are ready for sports again...an average attendance over the next five years of 32,000 fans a game doesn't seem aggressive. That's 12,000 a game over 80 games means more than a million additional fans (from baseline which I'm sure is how JR sees it for budgeting purposes). A million extra fans with all ancillary spending would suggest $100 million extra revenue per year from base for the window. Take half of that for extra spending and yes...I would be REALLY pissed if they didn't hand out a couple of big contracts this off season. As for the haters on this site...we were a top five spending team in the 80's, 90's and 00's when we had a competitive team. JR spends when people come to the game...sadly our baseline isn't great when the teams not great (like Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs who draw no matter what) his "cheapness" is a myth. PLUS he's a baseball fan who is close to death and would like to see them win again and we all think they are close...I would be less surprised at an offseason signing of Semien and Rodon than an off season signing of nothing.

Since they're in their window? An extra 500,000 fans at $100 revenue per fan is $50 million extra to spend. $25 mill per on Robbie Ray and $10 mill for Taylor...and JR and the boys still have a nice bonus.

If we believe...which I do, that Vaughn becomes an elite hitter...the splits aren't so important. Yes Vaughn was bad against righties last year...but look at someone like Austin Riley...you don't get to .900 OPS for the season without also pounding righties. If the second problem is the bench?? I don't think you fail because you lack Leury Garcia. If that's true...well resign him. You can also sign someone like Chris Taylor for not too much money. I just don't like the idea of blocking 25 year old Vaughn to replace him with an aging known quantity. Part of this organization's peak potential is with Vaughn really breaking out next year. Yes it's a bit of a dice roll...but man I sure like that dice roll better than last year some of the hot RF's...Jackie Bradley JR (-0.7 WAR last year), Joc Pederson (0.0 WAR) or Adam Eaton (-0.7 WAR).

Why is Vaughn not the answer? Seriously...we are looking at 35 year old McCuthchen at a .780 OPS and a -1.5 dWar? Vaughn is only 24 and last year after never really playing OF before he looked like he could handle it. He's not ever going to be a great defensive outfielder but If you have Eloy, Vaughn and Robert all 25 and you can slot them into the outfield for the next five years and they hit 110 home runs/year while collectively batting .333...who cares if they give up a few extra runs? I feel like they will give out one big contract this off season...two if they can deal the crumbling K's...you let Romy hold 2b and then sign Robbie Ray. That rotation of Gio, Lynn, Cease, Kopech and Ray could be exciting.

I like Jirschele too. In a disaster of a minor league season for the Sox. JJ led the Barons, who didn't have many of the Sox top 30 prospects, to a winning record. I think he's won at every level that he's managed. I was hoping for him before the TLR decision but understood because he was only 30 and I'm not sure you hand the keys of the Ferrari over to a kid. Another year of success by him...and TLR mixed results...who knows.

The meatball nature of this negativity is amazing. There is a randomness to baseball. it used to be the best teams met in the World Series because only the top team in the AL and the top team in the NL went to the playoffs. You had 154 games to decide who was the best team and it was hard to debate with a sample size of 154 games. Now most of you have determined that the White Sox are a mess based on a sample size of two games?? Zeby Savala had 90 at bats where he hit .128 with 2 home runs. He had two games where he went 6 for 7 with 3 home runs. Can we say based on those two games that Zeby is the greatest player of all time...or was it just randomness? The core of this team has greatness inside of it. I don't think anyone of us thought that this was going to be the best team of the run. If they lose on Sunday are are swept away...well it was an exciting year...and it will be an interesting off season and next year will be exciting too. If they win on Sunday...well it's NOT over...as a Bucks fan, the Bucks lost the first two games of the conference semi finals, the first game at home in the conference finals and the first two games of the finals. Teams can come back. And it is worth remembering...Dodgers won an average of 96 games a year for 7 years and won zero world series...and it was only in the COVID shortened season that they finally won. Enjoy the day to day greatness of the team because in a winner take all series even Baltimore could have a few good days.

What I remember of the 2005 team was the crazy bullpen...a bunch of fringe prospects and journeymen became unhittable for a year. Politte, Cotts and Hermanson pitched every game with sub 2.00 ERA. Sort of the opposite of this team with undeniable talent with unspeakable results.

I think maybe 94 team is best comparison? Superstars like Thomas, Raines and Ventura and a bunch of pretty good others. Four power starting pitchers. Thing about this team is everyone is 26 or younger.

Weird what they are doing at catcher. TLR is so old school which means 1) never have catcher in day game after night game 2) lefty hitter versus righty pitcher....yet Collins sits? I know this will call in the cascade of COLLINS SUCKS...but he made a couple of game savings stops at catcher in the 10th/11th last night. He's been on base 6 of his last 11 plate appearances...and honestly Zeby is not good...outside of his one magic game his slash line is .171/.236/.234, he's had 7 passed balls in 24 games started and thrown out 5% of base stealers. I wonder if Collins is hated in the clubhouse or told TLR that he doesn't like dogs or something. I honestly hope they send Collins down and let him start at catcher in AAA and then quietly trade him in the off season...their handling of him has been so odd.

It's curious following the minor leagues solely through the lens of the major leagues. It honestly doesn't matter to me if the combined minor leagues lose every night as long as they produce three or four interesting pieces to add to the White Sox or use as trade pieces. I think that is where we are at right now...the major league roster is so young and talented that it doesn't matter that you have hundreds of pretty good minor league players that will help Kannapolis win 60% of their games. You want potential stars to add to our existing galaxy. You say it's too bad they have no pitching...yet Gio-26, Cease-25, Kopech-25, Crochett-22 should be in your starting staff for five years. What you need is to see the high school kids slowly developing so you have a second wave. Vera, Thompson, Kelly, Dalquist, Burke and McDougal are all 18-21 with great stuff...we just have to be patient with them as they rise through the system.