michelangelosmonkey

He only started 11 out of 21 games between the 5th and the 31st...he came in as a pinch hitter or took over after Z was removed for a pinch hitter. He has been BAD...but I don't think it's a fair trial. I get that we are trying to win but to give Z half the starts after Grandal's injury...why? Why not the Navarez here you go...prove it...stretch.

And a .500 record...which would be better than Musgrove the last three months.

Since the first two games in early April Musgrove is 6-8 with a 3.50+ ERA for a great team...and he would have cost, as someone suggested Kelley, Beard and Rodriguez. I know you are going to FIP and FWAR me to death but...8-8 total for an elite team with a 3.11 ERA in the National League...at some point you FIPsters are going to have to acknowledge that the stats don't work for some guys...Musgrove had elite FIP for Pittsburgh and yet never won...now he's over at the Padres...that team that most Soxtalkers wish we had...and he's OK...solidly OK. If we sign him we don't bring back Rodon who has been elite...and Rodriquez is our top prospect today...and Reylo sure is interesting...for free.

How do you get in a rhythm when he catches every third day? Catching is hard to learn...he's changed his catching style this year to kneeling...has a new catching coach...and he's only 26. When I looked at it back in mid June Collins ERA while catching was lower than Grandals...again not entirely his doing as he was Rodon and Gio's personal catcher...but he must call a pretty good game or they wouldn't want him as their personal catcher...Gio called him a "student of the game". Meanwhile framing is the dumbest metric...he's really bad at keeping the umpires from being really bad? So when we go to robot umps suddenly Collins is a lefty power hitter with lots of walks and calls a good game and we let him get away? Like Reylo...let them develop.

I think their handling of Collins has been weird. Grandal got hurt on July 5th and the White Sox have played 36 games since then and Collins has started 16 of them. It seems clear that management doesn't think he can do it. I wish they had given him 25 starts in a row to prove it...like they did with Narvaez in 2018. They put guys like Engel in only super advantageous hitting matchups and yet Collins is always facing tough lefties because of the pitchers he catches for. Not everyone pans out...and at one point it seemed like they had a clever long term plan for Collins...now I just think they hate him. but not as much as Soxtalk HATES him (but again...like they hated Reylo until reylo started pitching well...we get 10,000 HE SUCKS and then when he turns it around three or four...well I guess I was wrong).

Collins has been terrible this past 6 weeks. Reylo was the worst pitcher in baseball last year. Gio was the worst pitcher in baseball in 2018. Rodon was a wasted top four draft pick. All have extraordinary potential. I am happy to admit that Collins has lost his confidence and has been terrible the last six weeks...but again...as recently as July 1st he had a .733 OPS, had caught a no hitter and was the preferred catcher for two of our best pitchers...and a lefty back up catcher. We will all cheer when we cut Collins loose this off season, as we did when Avasail left, and in a quiet move Tampa or Oakland or Milwaukee picks him up. Until then I will just get used to the deep thoughtful analysis, 10,000 times a game, of COLLINS SUCKS....just like I got used to the REYLO SUCKS chants.

I got mocked here a lot back in the off season, in the Joe Musgrove thread, when I suggested we under rate our own potential guys and fall in love with some other teams potential guys. I argued that while JM had intriguing potential there were warning signs and he was going to cost a lot of assets while Reylo had upside and cost nothing....hahahahahahaha you are stupid...Reylo is trash and JM is amazing, I was told. I'm not sure I believe in the new Reylo...but I also never believed in the loud "HE IS GARBAGE" stuff. In 2018, at 24, Reylo pitched 180+ innings and had a 3.5 WAR. That guy is in there somewhere...yet at 26 he was worth nothing?? Chris Bassitt who we were all lamenting was another one that got away...has been one of the best pitchers in baseball the last three years...was nothing until he turned 30. I made the same argument with Rodon at the start of the season...that there were comparable pitchers that had history of arm problems and then in their late twenties were past it and had very good careers (I used Mike Minor who starting at 29 put up 14 WAR in three years after missing two and a half years with arm problems). At some point we have to be patient when a guy doesn't perform as opposed to falling all over ourselves to see who can shout the loudest "HE SUCKS". And in an unrelated note maybe we can ratchet back the 10,000 posts per gamethread that shout "Collins sucks"...maybe as a fan base we can start cheering for our guys and rooting against the other teams guys?

Yes but Eloy has 46 homers and 123 RBIs in 180 career games, Grandal's average year is 90 walks and 27 homers, Robert might be the best all around player I've ever seen on the Sox and Madrigal (I'm going to miss him) has a career .317 batting average. Why couldn't it be Leury and Goodwin and Collins that were hurt and out most of the season? But man...when we get all the pieces together!!!!

Sorry but if the Sox trade Burger for Blackmon and Story...I would get in my time machine and go back to Dec 2019 and explain to Rockies baseball fans how this was going to happen within 18 months and then get locked up for being a lunatic.

Frank Howard had a ten year stretch where he had -20 dWar and was STILL +40 WAR. I don't love the idea of Vaughn being the full time RF...but I think his fielding will not cost nearly as many runs as his hitting will create...especially when Robert is back covering 3/4 of the outfield by himself. Still Cali's passion of getting lefty Joe Gallo to help this year and next before Cespedes is ready while working with VAughan/Eloy/Sheets/Abreu combo for LF/iB/DH is the best route.

Why would someone need to take on those deals? Grandal seems like he will continue to have value through his contract (splitting catcher next year with Collins...and DH, 1b etc going forward). Keuchel is really only guaranteed 2022 (from my understanding has to pitch 160 innings next year to vest for 2023). Having him and Kopech split innings next year seems fine...and if not...honestly on a staff with Gio, Lynn, Cease, Kopech, Rodon he's your 6th choice so I can see the Sox wanting to trade him and I think for a lot of contending teams he would be a great 4th or 5th starter. Flip him for a couple of 19 year olds.

I guess my "overly pessimistic" comment is about your cap at $160 million. I just want to reiterated the point that JR is a businessman and his goal is to make money. As I look at Sox attendance history it suggests that at that stadium for the last 25 years the floor of attendance is about 20,000 fans...meaning good years or bad 20,000 fans will come out just for the joy of baseball. If you figure a fan is worth $75...ticket, parking, food, pro shop, etc...that suggests an annual attendance revenue of $120 mill. With radio and TV rites you figure that is about what it costs to maintain a 15th overall payroll (basically where the Sox have been). JR understands that the difference between a 65 win team and a 85 win team is probably almost nothing in revenue...so when the team is down he has no real incentive to boost up spending on free agents etc. But he also understands that when the team is going good attendance goes with it. White Sox peak attendance was 2006 post World series glory at 36,500. I think the excitement for this team...with all the young personable stars...will come close to that. So I arbitrarily used the number of 35,000. Let's say for the next five years (2022 and on) they average 35,000 always go to the playoffs and win a WS. An extra 15,000 fans a game comes out to $90 million +. Add in 5 playoff games, $100 per fan with 40,000 fans in attendance is another $20 mill a year bringing us to an annual extra $110,000,00 additional revenue Do you think it's crazy to think the White Sox will spend half of that on player contracts? That's an extra $55 million which will take the White Sox to about a top 5 payroll...as I suggested. Add in the fact that they know they saved a couple of hundred million over the last five years with super low payrolls (not much effect on attendance) and the Sox have money to spend and have SAID they will spend money. If JR is a smart business man (which I think he is) he should be cheap in the down years and spend in the good years...which is exactly what the data shows. And now we are at a possible turning point for the franchise...possibly the greatest assemblage of talent in 100 years + most of them super young and super cheap+ no currently bad long term contracts + coming out of the pandemic+ Cubs starting a rebuild + millennials changing the face of Chicago...It's not impossible that hitting the accelerator now flips White Sox floor level attendance to more like the Cubs floor attendance for the last 25 years of about 30,000 fans...add in TV and Radio rights increasing. Honestly the argument against them spending a LOT more is something like "JR has a map to a gold mine but is too cheap to buy a shovel". The truth will come out in the next few months but I am very bullish.

I think you are overly pessimistic about the size of the payroll going forward...JR has, many times, had a top 5-7 payroll over the last 30 years...he's a smart business man and I think he sees he could have a gold mine here...Cubs look to be headed into a 5 year down cycle...Sox have a LOT of exciting young players...COVID is over...I could see 35,000 per game attendance in 2022 and TV ratings boom as the city shifts to a Sox focus. That means money will be pouring in...and right now a top 5 payroll is $185 million. That means Sox have an upside of $50 million from this year...so fitting in Rodon and Lynn sure seems possible.

I think Engel's 12 homers over his last 200 at bats and plus speed and plus defensive are intriguing because he doesn't cost anything. But as you have pointed other in an earlier post...we have babied Engel and put him in highly favorable pitching matchups...so you can't just extrapolate with an expanded role. Gallo gives you 40 homer power, lots of walks plus defensive and a lefty bat and fairly cheap for the next year and a half. I would be super excited about that...but not at any price. I don't really want to give up Crochet. He seems too obviously special. If you can get him for Burger (talk about playing with house money), Lopez and Kelly I think that would be fair...maybe through in Elijiah Tatis as a wild card. Then start clearing a place on the mantelpiece for the WS trophies the next two years.

I think that's fair which is what is going to make this year's trade deadline/next off season so interesting. RH has said "the money will be spent". I have been a big proponent of protecting your financial assets until you really need them...so I was fine with them not burning the extra money this past off season...I just didn't believe that 2021 was the "all in" year...as you could expect growing pains from Madrigal, Robert, Vaughn, Collins, Eloy, etc. But as the team locomotive seems to be building a head of steam this is the offseason to prove it. If the Sox had signed Machado or Harper three years ago their financial flexibility is gone. But it should be there now...so let's say Rodon continues doing 2021 Rodon the rest of the season...pitches 180 innings and finished with a 6 WAR....no arm trouble. Now there is no excuse for not giving him, say, a 4 year $100 million contract...after all given the construct of the team...locking in a dominating under 30 left handed starter for four years is exactly what they need. If management lets him walk...and Lynn walk...and doesn't trade for or sign an expensive replacement...well then I'm ready to join the JR haters that he's cheap and will never pay. I just think the team will pay to keep this group going.

You are generally one of my favorite posters...but I think two things are unfair...1) suggesting the Tatis disaster was some sort of systematic failure. Red Sox traded 80 career WAR Jeff Bagwell to Houston for 22 innings of Larry Anderson...that was a systematic failure...trading the 30th ranked prospect in all of baseball for a middle reliever in a walk year was bad thinking. Like trading Cespedes for Ian Kennedy...so risky. And I know you hated the James Shields trade but the Sox throwing in a nobody that was available a month before to any MLB team that was willing to pay chump change for him wasn't risky...until it was a total disaster. Including a lottery ticket in a birthday card is a funny joke until it hits for $100 million...and then it's the dumbest thing you ever did. Everyone feels bad about the bad luck...but every single trade any team ever makes has the chance of blowing up. 2) listing the "failures of the rebuild" as some kind of evidence of organizational incompetance. Signing crappy free agents was the plan...running out bad players was the plan. Losing lots of games for five years, while painful, was the plan. Now we are witnessing the plan succeeding. As for trusting JR...I think he's a businessman and I think he loves the White Sox...he wants to win but has a budget. They did have some sustained success...that five years from 90-94 they won an average of 90 games a year...culminating in the greatest team I ever saw...that never had a chance to win because of the strike. 2000-2006 they also won about 90 games a year including winning a WS. Hey it's not a glorious franchise but it's ours...and now is our time in the sun...dunking on something as silly as someone's evaluation of our 20 year old prospects seems mean.

Ohmigod Cali this is the most ridiculous negative post. We have the top record in all the AL and Bill James, the father of sabermetrics, says players hit their prime at 27. Here are the Sox 27 or younger on the roster NOW....that's 15 guys...and those are almost all of our star players...and they are JUST BEGINNING. We have five years with just this group. Garrett Crochet 22 Andrew Vaughn 23 Luis Robert 23 Codi Heuer 24 Eloy Jiminez 24 Nick Madrigal 24 Michael Kopech 25 Dylan Cease 25 Gavin Sheets 25 Jake Burger 25 Lucas Giolito 26 Matt Foster 26 Jose Ruiz 26 Yoan Moncada 26 Zack Collins 26 You know why our Farm system is ranked so poorly?? Because our young guys are SO good they are in the majors. Man if you want to continue to sour puss over the random bad luck of Tatis...or the possibility that the White Sox won't sign free agents even though there is lots of evidence that they will (top five pay roll in 00's, 90's and 80's when the team was competitive...Sox are currently $50 MILLION under the top five payroll) go for it. But almost all evidence is the team is on the cusp of greatness and I'd sure like more of the regulars on Soxtalk to recognize that.

Moncada is getting on base 40% of the time, is a plus defensive fielder and is making as much in salary in 21+22+23 as Machado is making this year. He's put up a .550 Slugging percent just two years ago...and he's only 26. Jake Burger is 25. Do you really want to trade Moncada?? Do you really think other teams wouldn't be interested in him?

200 consecutive at bats (now 12 home runs btw) over three seasons...at what point is it no longer a fluke? Everything's a leap of faith...2018 NL MVP (and 2nd in 2019) is probably available.

And hiring TLR was "moronic". Thanks again for your wisdom. (note WS top five payroll in 00's, 90's and 80's when the team was competitive )

Over the last 200 at bats for Engel...2021, 2020 and Sept/Oct 2019...he's slashing .278/.319/.500...10 doubles and 11 homers. Plus great speed and gold glove defense....why do we need a right fielder again?

And Engel.

I've thought the same thing...but Robert covers so much ground in CF. With all the shifting baseball does and as fast as Engel and Robert are...i wonder if you could play Robert as the RCF and Engel as the LCF and have Jiminez just stand on the LF foul line and tell him not to move unless it's hit right at him.

Since Sept 2019...Engel has 10 home runs in 184 at bats....slashing .280/.330/.495...and playing gold glove defense. I know they have babied him by giving him favorable matchups...and its still only a couple of hundred at bats...but at some don't you give him a 60 game, play every day, stretch to see if we may have something really interesting here?

Phillies have 5th highest payroll in baseball...and they are a .500 team this year, sub .500 last year and .500 in 2019. Their rebuild has been a disaster. Bryce Harper as our RF for the next ten years?? As a trade would be salary cap relief for them so I'm not sure it would take much in prospect capital. Engel, Burger and one of the HS pitchers?