29andPoplar

Agree. He is not the guy that fills the need. Pierzynski is intense but his extreme level of sarcasm doesn't play well. Not that he isn't an intense competitor. It's hard to put into words but he isn't the right fit for that role. It needs to be a veteran and the right kind of veteran.

You may be kidding but you're not off base. Certainly not a Carl Everett redux but a guy like him, someone with intensity who isn't afraid to rock the boat a bit and can back up his stuff. To me, there is no question whatsoever it is an element lacking on this team.

On Nevin Griffith, he barely got his feet wet, he joined the team late and only got into a few games. I would not take too much out of his results one way or the other. In Bristol, they are almost always working with these guys on some basic stuff, possibly cleaning up their delivery or other things.

Lots of very raw players on the Bristol squad, several imports from the Dominican and teenagers just out of high school getting their first taste of pro ball. Many of these guys will go to instructional league mid Sept. and that's good, they need instruction. Bobby Thigpen was manager and they never really got rolling there. I wonder if they will stay in Bristol next year, the Appalachian League is a bit wobbly and the White Sox may want to try something different.

Sports Illustrated is a media piece that very often uses other media to get a quote or story. As for the White Sox reading message boards and using that as a compass for their course of action ... no. You are not going to start a revolution in the Sox front office by posting the same thing over and over. As for their statements about getting more out of draft picks, the Williams/Shaffer rub goes back long long ago. I have gently suggested to you several times about writing a letter or getting an interview with someone who can and does have an impact, you haven't responded. I take that to mean you have no interest in doing something constructive on this topic and maybe getting this board some answers to the issue you bring up almost daily. So let me ask you specifically, are you willing to step up and write a letter asking for an interview or two with the decision makers? Or otherwise contact them to set up an interview? If not, why not? I am willing to do it but you're the one constantly beating the drum, I would think you'd really want answers.

Wow, thanks for posting those stats. That's really something and it goes to show the frustrating nature of bullpens from year to year. That has to be talent evaluators hardest job, do you stick with these bullpen guys who fluctuate so often, or do you get rid of them. White Sox have lots of decisions like that, namely Masset, Aardsma, MacDougal and possibly a few others.

You're wasting your time. Do something productive, write him a letter, ask for a response, and post the response here. Typing the same thing over and over on a message board might make you feel better but it doesn't get anything to change.

I really don't think the White Sox were going to say "Freddy has a very worn out right shoulder, it's from pitching 200 innings, heavy innings, for the last several years. That, fans, is why his velocity is way down." Veteran players are hurting all the time and whether we like it or not, as fans we don't get the full and complete story. If a veteran says he's ok and he can give it a go, they will put a positive spin on it. They are not going to say, well, he has tons of wear and tear and he's a shoulder surgery waiting to happen but he's gonna try to gut it out. Nor is Ozzie Guillen going to say "Freddy, he is hurting. Bad shoulder. Glad we trade." Information came out later about the exam Freddy had in the spring this year, it came out he had considerable wear and tear in the shoulder and now they are saying rotator cuff and labrum damage. Common sense in releasing info to the public comes into play. It's not all black and white. Garcia is a veteran and if he tells the Philly medical staff, hey, I can pitch through this, generally they will let him. As you said, that trade was a fleece even if Gonzalez and Floyd do nothing. The problem was, the $10M saved wasn't used properly, or at least the $10M didn't help the Sox in 07.

I agree completely, your points were made very well. I also think they were countered exceptionally well. Bottom line I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's minds here. It is pretty apparant where everyone stands and hopefully a re-hash doesn't happen every day like some topics do.

Come on guys let's keep this on baseball, no one wants this to get personal.

No, I think you understood it well and I agree that "going for it" generally means trading prospects for vets. Again I like to back away and look at it thru a wider angle lens. Williams has a history of trading prospects to be sure but he also has a history of dumping off spare parts for prospects (Singleton for Willie Harris, Iguchi for this young pitcher Dubee from Philly, there have been others.). So he is trying to do two things at once, and I think that has bit him this year. He's trying to set the White Sox up for a sustained run and that's all well and good. But when you do that, you have to be very very accurate. Yes there is no question every team needs to inject good young talent into the lineup. Now let's examine the thought process. One of the reasons why Williams has had to trade for prospects, even while "going for it" in years like 2004 and 2006 and last winter, is because the scouting people hadn't brought good talent into the organization. Or, the development people haven't developed them. Follow me here. If KW and Reinsdorf sit there and say "we're going for it" then their mindset shouldn't be on trading for prospects. Generally, not always, when any organization tries to do two things at once, something suffers. Well, the White Sox suffered big time in 2007 because he was trying to set the team up for the future with young unproven relievers like Masset, Sisco, Aardsma and then thrust them into roles they clearly weren't ready for. So their thought process is, damn, I have to trade for prospects because my scouting people aren't finding me guys to plug in. Thought process leads to action, scouting director is fired. Clearly to me this says the thought process is correct. Determine problem, fix problem. My development people aren't turning out talent either, let's get a new development guy (which they did, Regier). My Latin American people aren't turning out as much talent as we need, let's hire a respected guy with lots of connections in the Dominican (Amaro Sr. and they beefed up the scouting too). Now of course everyone is looking for bullpen help every winter. So maybe the only bullpen guys readily available at reasonable cost were these young guys. But it didn't work. That is not to say acquiring young bullpen guys will never work, but you can bet it's a strategy they are examining as they head into the offseason. Meaning, they are re-examining their thought process. They have said they need to figure out this bullpen. So you can see why, for now, I am comfortable with their thought process. They've identified the problems and have taken steps to try and fix them. Now and this winter and next spring, they need to execute.

Not sure on the exact date but they hired him sometime after the end of last season (2006). So he hasn't been working for the White Sox that long. I do know they wanted more help and resources for the Dominican operation and their academy which has been run by Denny Gonzalez who doubles as a scout. My understanding is Amaro's primary asset is his connections and influence in the Dominican. Not certain exactly what that means but he was a Phillies scout in the Domincan for many many years and of course was a former major leaguer. By the way his son Ruben Amaro Jr. as you may know is Asst. GM in Philly and Amaro Jr. and Kenny Williams went to Stanford together, so there is a family connection so to speak. Also I believe but am not certain on this, the White Sox added at least one part time scout to the Dominican last fall. I posted the list a few days ago and I think they have 2 full timers and a few part timers. Addition - The White Sox' full time scout in the Pacific Rim is Ray Poitevent, who scouted there for the Red Sox for many years. The Red Sox have always been involved with sourcing players from the Far East countries. Seems to me the White Sox are identifying scouts from other organizations and bringing them on board.

Yes, the aggressiveness is a big plus to me too. As a side note, aggressiveness tends to play well in Chicago. Again, big picture stuff, if your GM is going to be aggressive you had best have very good pro scouting. Not certain the White Sox have always had great pro scouting. They need to do better with this because the White Sox are an organization that uses a specific methodology for sourcing talent vs. going out and buying big ticket FA's. That methodology is what we saw in the Danny Richar trade. They identify guys who are blocked or undervalued on other teams systems and try to plug them in. They did that with Willie Harris to mixed results although it was clear WH had some real talent. This last winter they moved Dave Wilder over to pro scouting, which is one of Wilder's strengths. Wilder was in on the Richar trade so it will be interesting to see how Richar works out.

Well I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here but it sounds like you evaluate things at the time they happen and factor in the thought process behind the move, and hence make your judgements about the GM. Or in the case of Erstad/Garland, evaluate things when they don't happen but still factor in the thought process and make judgements about the GM. I don't do it that way, and it comes from watching baseball and specifically the White Sox organization for decades. I look at just about everything bigger picture, choosing not to overreact on a single personnel move one way or the other. Constructing/building/molding a team is an ongoing process and many many times one move predicates another. Baseball history shows that clearly. I look at the trends of the White Sox and their action plan to be better. I know from watching baseball for a long long time there will be inevitable ups and downs and I don't scream for people to get fired or start polls. Yes I understand this is a message board and everything and anything can be discussed. I am trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to encourage people to look at things in a broader perspective, because I know every successful baseball organization does just that. Example ... look at that thread about Buehrle re-signing. It was 110 or so pages. Many here were absolutely crucifying Williams and I mean hanging his rear end on the wall. One bleeding heart who likes to bump threads and say "I told you so" was bemoaning his 4 yr. old wouldn't have anyone to root for and it was a tragedy that Buehrle would win his next 150 games in another uniform. My response in that whole thread was "let's wait it out, let's wait and see what happens". I am advocating the same now. On your ARod example and I know it's just an example. No, you are incorrect, I would not see that as a bad move. First of all, ARod is a premier player and if you can get him you do it. If he blows out his knees and never plays a game with the White Sox, no I'm not jumping off a cliff saying the White Sox are hamstrung because I know insurance will cover most of the payroll obligation. Again, it's looking big picture and I am fortunate to understand a bit how the business side of things works. I will continue to rely heavily on results because I'm comfortable with the thought process of "going for it" and constantly trying to make the team better, both in what we fans hear about and what goes on behind the scenes. Some here do not like the thought process, that is completely ok by me, there will always be different opinions.

I was trying to decide which part of your excellent post to quote and decided on this part. While I'm not certain Beane is happy with 2nd place, I completely agree with the two main points you bring out. I too want a guy who shoots for everything and goes for the gold. And I too have complete confidence that Williams, Hahn, Guillen, Reinsdorf and everyone else with input are suffering, and suffering more than any of us. I may not agree with their personnel moves, in fact it's often I don't. But I do not doubt they are pouring all the available resources into making the team a winner, and are willing and able to critique themselves and make necessary changes.

Adding to this, I will say there are some definite and obvious needs for improvement. Player development is the next big focus, a new guy is in charge and as I have mentioned on this site before I believe you will see some philosophical changes and a few staffing changes after the season. Some (most?) of this will be transparent to the average fans eyes. One change that's already being implemented, they are being more patient with guys and making sure they are playing the game the right way, fundamentally, and are given every opportunity to improve their skills and master them before moving to the next level. It is not an exact science but this is how the Twins do it, among other teams upon whom praise is heaped on this site. I expect some of the instructors to change, some were changed after last year as well. An example is this Valido kid, the SS. He has arguably major league defensive talent and a very good arm and is a pretty heady ballplayer. However his bat has been awful. They are going to devote every resource they have with him and make sure they give him every chance before they give up. Patience is the word. The scouting mission has been changed, they are looking for potentially higher impact guys but guys who are ballplayers, therefore they should be on a slightly faster track. However as much as it frustrates me I do not see them being a team that goes much if any over slot bonus recommendations. While I do see them somewhat shifting the focus toward position players I do not think the pendalum will swing totally. The Sox will still take lots and lots of pitching because if you have good pitching, you win and you can always trade pitching for other needs. However they have been bitten on the behind by not having any young impact bats, with the exception of possibly Fields. I have already discussed the Dominican operation at length so no need to go into it again.

Not to accuse the well respected Jim Callis of any improprieties, but for the record he's a raging Cub fan and generally has gone out of his way to heap praise on Cubs prospects. I will be quick to say it doesn't mean he's totally off base though. The White Sox farm system needs bolstering big time, both in terms of talent influx and examination of player development. Changes have been made, unfortunately it takes time for some changes to implement. Here are some of the things which IMO are looking up, 1. The Great Falls team is doing very well after being stocked with recent draftees and adding a solid veteran manager. Poreda is off to a fine start and a few other pitchers and position players are showing they can do the job. Having your Pioneer League team do well isn't the be all end all, but it's a positive sign. 2. They have Ruben Amaro in charge of the Dominican operation. Not sure when this happened but Amaro is one of the pioneers of bringing Latin American talent to MLB and he has arguably some of the best connections in the DR. They have two DSL teams which is a good thing. 3. They have a full time scout in the Pacific Rim now, and we have seen a trickle of Asian talent come our way. 4. Kannapolis which was a major disaster last year is doing better in '07. Personally I think the farm system has bottomed out and things are on the way to getting better.

Could be. Then again, maybe he just doesn't quite have the skill to pull the trigger on the right trade to get his team over the hump and win it all. Again, it all depends how one wants to spin this.

Ryan is an excellent GM. His downfall is his continued non-aggressiveness at the deadlines. Maybe that means he has a big ego, maybe that means he's stubborn? Who knows, it's all how people choose to spin it.

The baseball world is full of woulda, coulda, shoulda. When I posted my comment about Garland, I just knew someone would respond with the "well he almost traded him to Anahiem" comment. This is reality, not what ifs. I can respond to your comment by saying "what if" that trade went thru and Williams turned around and used those assets to get something else, something better. See, the "he almost traded Garland" argument doesn't wash because no one knows what would've happened afterwards. To further the "what if" game on the other side of the coin, are you aware of the trade offers Williams and Hahn turned down? I'm sure there have been many, many of which would've (there's that word again) been bad for the franchise. None of us know what they've turned down, we just read rumors which may or may not be truthful. To pinch an old phrase Sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make. Again, this entire argument can be spun 100 times over, depending on what side of the fence you're on. Many of you have the impression Williams is arrogant, have you met him personally, have you interacted with him, or is this merely an impression you've picked up by reading message boards and newspapers. For what it's worth I have met him, probably a dozen times, and have had the pleasure of interacting with him several times. He is engaging, quick to give credit to others, is often self depreciating, with an obvious competitive streak. And by all accounts has a very strong work ethic. I don't see arrogant at all, I see confidence and a competitive streak which is what I want for my team's GM. Rick Hahn is the same way. See, the whole perception thing can be spun 100 ways too. Lastly ... "the thought process is worth more than the results" ???? No thanks, I'll take results. We're not getting the results this year, in past years the team has been competitive for the most part. How about this, those who want them fired, who do you hire in their place and why? Please give specifics. Not just "let's hire Steve Stone, ummm, he's a smart guy and knows the game".

Another loss, the 8th inning offensive ineptitude was the killer. Not a great outing by Gavin Floyd but he certainly wasn't horrible.

I don't know if Shapiro is all that great either, but I will say the deal the White Sox made for Contreras for Loaiza was good, the trade for Garcia was good even though I recall being at the ballpark after that game and all the teenagers were aghast the great Jeremy Reed was traded. That took guts. Jenks was good scouting, other teams could have easily claimed him and are kicking themselves they didn't. Every GM makes good moves, and every GM makes moves that flame out. The key is, how do they rebound from moves that don't work out. Which is why I say all this talk of gassing people doesn't make sense. Let's see how they rebound from this.

Garland wasn't much those first few years, but who gets the credit for sticking with him and sticking with him and sticking with him some more, and believing in his talent? Would that be Jerry Manuel, or Williams, or who? As for the money, as I understand it, the Tribe and the White Sox operate on basically the same business model. They have a budget and they try very hard to not go into the red. That means the GM and his staff have to be creative and spend the money wisely so the team is competitive, which generally leads to higher attendance and bigger budgets. I know that's how it works with the White Sox, I suspect it does in Cleveland too. As I pointed out, the Indians were under .500 four of the six years. The Sox haven't been under .500 until this year. There are all kinds of ways to spin this. The reality is, a broader long term perspective is necessary. Are the teams generally in the hunt, are they competitive? I realize that doesn't play in the "I want it now" world but unfortunately baseball seems to be a world unto itself, with cyclical natures that aren't always predictable. I will contend these questions of "who should be fired first" are fairly addressed about a year from now. This staff has earned the opportunity to see if they can turn this around.

The White Sox had to rebuild practically the entire starting staff after all the arms fell off after 2000. KW has had the luxury and resources to go for it? What about all the White Sox fans complaining ad nauseum about payroll restrictions all those years? It's not as if the resources were unlimited, not by a long shot.

That is generally true. The teams that win though usually have damn good starting pitching, starting pitching that has something left in the tank due to how they're handled during the regular season. Of course, sweeping your first round opponent while other series go the limit helps your starting pitching considerably. It all comes down to taking care of business when you've got the opportunity, and that means hitting on all cylinders at the right time. Which is a credit to everyone involved - the players, the manager for ensuring they've got momentum and are fresh, and the GM for ensuring you've got the right kind of players who can handle the grind and the inevitable ups and downs.