Buehrlesque

QUOTE (oldsox @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 10:21 AM) In order to get both Rodgers and Dahl, Sox would have to give up both Q and Abreu. Probably a reliever, too. Rox could throw in a young first baseman and a young catcher. My pipe dream, too. With Bregman pretty much off the table, this is my top pipe dream target too. The Rockies make some odd choices (Ian Desmond...?), so who knows, maybe they'd pull a Dave Stewart and trade both Dahl and Rodgers for Quintana plus one more piece (Abreu/Robertson/Frazier/Jones).

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 10:17 AM) Martes/Tucker/Reed is an interesting package. Sox needs to start getting some position players in the pipeline I'd love to see one more player like Perez thrown in to sweeten the deal. Martes/Tucker/Reed/Perez is a great package I agree that Martes/Tucker/Reed needs (at least) one more piece, but instead of another pitcher like Perez I'd prefer one of the OFs: Fischer, Laureano or Hernandez.

QUOTE (chisox802 @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 09:13 AM) From a speculation stand point, I think the Rockies make way too much sense. Quintana is one of the few pitchers that might actually pitch decent in Coors as well. I live out here in CO, and as a Purple Row article mentioned, I think it could benefit both teams greatly. I have not seen Rodgers play, but everyone raves about him here... Also, if there was anyway ever we could get David Dahl, sign me up. Seen him play multiple times and is going to be the real deal. Just a pipe dream though. With the Rockies, I would think Dahl might be in play. They have so many major league OFs as it is, maybe they'd consider trading Dahl instead of Blackmon for an elite starter. I'm not as high on Tapia, and I think Riley Pint is too young and risky to center a package around. So Dahl and/or Rodgers would be to be involved for my money.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 12, 2016 -> 09:32 PM) Ok, so if Tucker is the centerpiece, what deal do you guys take? Because if he is the centerpiece for me, I want another 3-4 guys with some really nice ceilings. Otherwise, I want a guy that has shown something in AA/AAA. If teams won't do that now, fine. I wait. And test them again in July. Because it is not me that has the pressure to compete this year. It's them. And maybe in July, I've seen that Tucker has taken the next step and it requires less projection from me. Maybe Tucker has taken a step back or injured himself and I can save myself from making a mistake I may have made back in the offseason. You guys are some really poor poker players though if you're just willing to give in after 5 days and accept some mediocre package because Luhnow or Bridich waited your giddy ass out after the Winter Meetings. If the Astros refuse to include Bregman in any deal (which is certainly a more-than-fair stance for them to take), I think a Quintana trade would have to include Martes and Tucker for sure, plus some serious depth. I would do Martes, Tucker, one of the other OFs (Fisher, Laureano or Hernandez), Stubbs and Reed.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 12, 2016 -> 05:26 PM) I have a hard time projecting 19 year old kids, to be honest with you. I totally downplay that. When you look at all the busts and the risks that could happen, especially with high school talent, its just get so freaking hard. We are trading a guy who is, if not elite, damn near elite, and under cost control for a very long time. I just can't justify it when the best guy we get is 19 with plenty of potential reasons for downside. Hell, he put up a .750 OPS in 2016 and in 63 games in 2015, put up a .647 OPS. No matter how good his tools are and how high of a pick he was, I just can't get that warm and fuzzy behind that piece. Remember, Courtney Hawkins put up a .804 OPS in his initial debut and was loaded with "tools". I do admit we are getting two quality pitchers as well...so I'm downplaying those aspects, but we need some dynamic position talent as well and I just don't really get that excited about the proposed package (because the arms aren't that great that it is worth ignoring "need"...if that makes sense). QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 12, 2016 -> 06:11 PM) I admittedly am still learning the differences between evaluating prospect talent and mlb regulars. That being said, at some point, potential, particularly with the attrition rate we're seeing for prospects, is not such a holy grail that I am moving my near-elite, rock solid, easy as it gets motion SP for the opportunity of HOPING that Kyle Tucker turns into a player as valuable as the one I am relinquishing. I'm sorry, but 19 year old kids that aren't already dominating a league wherein they are one of the younger players simply cannot be untouchable for a proven player with the value of Jose Quintana. This is just getting out of hand. Weighing in to say I agree with you guys. I'm not as quick to take on larger risk, more projectability and longer timelines in a return for Quintana. I feel like that is selling him short. Obviously there's going to be risk in trading for any kind of prospect, but with elite quality like Quintana, I feel like the Sox have the luxury of acquiring guys who have higher ceilings and are more developed, something slightly less risky than 19-year-olds. Guys like Moncada, Giolito and Lopez may well bust, but they've proven more already than guys like Tucker, Pint, Maitan and even Robles. Quintana should hold enough value to get guys with that kind of upside that are proven enough to be a notch above risk-wise.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 8, 2016 -> 02:11 PM) Moncada/Devers/Kopech would have been an overpay from Boston's perspective That is 3 top thirty prospects for one player, the risk would be arguably too huge. The White Sox tried hard, but Boston knew they had the best offer on the table as nobody else was offering a true blue chip prospect along the lines of Moncada Agree with both parts of this. The Sox would have needed to add another piece to their end to balance things out. Plus, like you said, no one was bidding up the Red Sox' current offer.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 8, 2016 -> 12:37 PM) Yah, I think this trade looks SOOO much better with ERod or Groome added on as the 3rd piece, Basabe the 4th, and Diaz the 5th. BUt oh well. Can't complain about the 1st two pieces. Yeah, I have that same smidge of disappointment that what was supposed to an "unprecedented haul" ended up a tad smaller than hoped. One more significant piece like Devers could have offset that a little. Still in all, a good trade with a great headliner.

I was hoping for position prospects too, but this is too good to pass up. Good value, good trade!

To be completely honest, I always envisioned the Sox getting a bigger package in return if they ever traded Sale. I guess it was unrealistic. Moncada is fantastic, it's just that this feels a little top heavy. I thought there would be more depth. That doesn't make this a bad trade, just not the "blow your socks off" kind.

My order is Moncada Bregman Swanson Benintendi Urias Turner I am lower on Turner, Albies and Robles than other people.

Given: the Sox will not realistically pursue the massive contract demands of Cespedes, Encarnacion, Bautista or (probably) Ramos. However, even in a weak FA class, there are more than enough option to fill out the Sox OF and DH holes: Reddick Fowler Desmond McCutchen (trade) CarGo (trade) Carlos Gomez Puig (trade) David Peralta (trade) Ethier (trade) There's a wide range of talent there from quality to "buy low" to pure dumpster diving. However, there's more than enough to construct a contending roster. Personally I would: 1. Sign Josh Reddick 2. Trade some fair combo of prospects (Adams and Michalczewski?) for Andrew McCutchen 3. Sign Jason Castro Eaton CF Cabrera DH McCutchen LF Abreu 1B Reddick RF Frazier 3B Lawrie 2B Castro C Anderson SS Reasonable contending roster, and it doesn't break the bank.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 04:31 PM) The issue with those two was the draft pick loss. Would you rather have them or the additional draft pick to help the rebuilding? Not saying you're wrong but they obviously didn't want to lose the high draft pick. I never understood this line of thinking. First off, it overvalues one comp pick, and is inconsistent with the other go-for-it moves. But in any case, signing players to one-year deals, which both Desmond and Fowler settled for, means you can just extend the QO next year and get the pick right back. If you believed these players were going to be good, which the Sox obviously did since they pursued them, it's a simple case of deferring the draft pick one year. How could that possibly have been more important? And you still have #10 and #49. I can see the argument that the risk is too great if you're giving up your only first rounder. But the Sox were perfectly set up to take advantage of the market, and unequivocally failed.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 03:47 PM) That would only hurt the team in the long run. The better option is to draft and develop better while filling the gaps with players they think are at value. I agree with this, and thus was OK losing out on guys like Heyward and Cespedes, etc. last winter. But passing on Fowler and Desmond was 100% unacceptable -- not in retrospect since they've been good -- but at the time. Super cheap relative to the market and super short term.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 01:59 PM) 2015 happened because they had some nice pieces and jerry couldn't sit on his hands no longer to let them keep building up. He accelerated it and wanted to compete. Problem is there were still too many holes on the roster. Keep patching things and wanting to win isnt helping and hahn is the only one to acknowledge that. Havent heard anything from kenny or jerry about it. Hell kenny didn't even know of they were buying or selling. This is a great point. Hahn knew he inherited a mess in 2013 and started by making some solid moves: acquiring Abreu, Eaton, Avi (plus Montas and the rest of the Peavy trade) and Davidson. That's a great start on rebuilding. Problem was, they switched their philosophy before the team was ready for it. They spent a lot of money, traded away prospects and gave up two high draft picks to put together a so-so team in 2015. There was a good amount of buzz at the time when they "won the winter." It didn't work due to some horrendously-timed slumps and some of the worst team defense and baserunning I have ever seen. Then they did it again last winter. They'll probably do it again this winter. Hard to blame a guy for wanting to go for it, but I just wish they took better inventory of their assets and strengthens/weaknesses and more properly evaluated their chances. If they get a new manager and legit OF or two (it's a weak FA class, yes, but there's still Cespedes, Reddick, Fowler, Encarnacion, CarGo rental), plus a real catcher, then take a typical White Sox flier (Puig or Carlos Gomez), they probably feel they will have enough for fans to dream on. And I think they're right: enough Sox fans would buy in, regardless of all the bitterness of the past two years of failures.

Has to be Moncada + Benintendi, period. If Boston balks at that, no trade. The rest is negotiable.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 29, 2016 -> 02:36 PM) That isn't all you would get. You'd get 4-5 other guys, at least one or two of which would be expected to be long term starters. The specific quoted proposal was Urias, Verdugo/Bellinger, and two "lower level guys." That is not enough, IMO. My overall point though is that a SP should not be the headliner of a potential Sale trade.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 29, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) If I am Hahn, I am not trading Sale without getting those two plus some. Case closed and if it was the off-season I'd want one of Betts / Bradley plus one of Moncada / Benitendi and their best pitching prospect. Now some of you may say I am delusional, but that is what it would take if I were the GM. Agreed. I like the added element of telling Boston they can get Sale now for a packaged headlined by Moncada and Benintendi today, but in the offseason would have to include one of Betts/Bogarts/Bradley.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Jul 29, 2016 -> 02:28 PM) I would be ok with that Dodgers trade. Urias is a phenom. Urias is great, but how is trading a great pitcher today for a (potentially) great pitcher a year or two from now really improving this team and its many holes? Best case scenario if Urias is great is that you change from a cheaply-signed ace to a super-cheap arb-eligible ace. That doesn't really move the needle for this team.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jul 29, 2016 -> 01:23 PM) So Cameron says a Benintendi/Devers/1 lower level guy (or Moncada/Kopech instead for the first two), Urias/Verdugo (or Bellinger instead of Verdugo)/2 lower level guys or Gallo/Brinson/Ortiz/1 lower level guy should be enough for the Sox to want to move Sale. If Sale was traded for any of those packages, would anyone here be happy with those trades? Not even close.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jul 27, 2016 -> 11:56 AM) Dave Cameron has a Fangraphs chat today, and I submitted this question: "If the Red Sox were willing to include both Moncada and Benintendi for Sale, do you think the White Sox would make the trade?" His answer: "Yes. But I don't think Boston would do that." I don't buy that. I think Boston would include both, but the Sox are asking for even more than that (Betts, etc.). If Boston isn't willing to include both those prospects from the get go, there's really no conversations about Sale to be had.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 27, 2016 -> 11:12 AM) The reason Boston is a match is they graduated a bunch of talent already into their farm and have a strong offensive core. Same with LA. There's a reason nobody is mentioning Seager. This is what makes it a unique opportunity. Boston is so stacked with hitters, at both the major and minor league level, that could not only conceivably meet the price for Sale, but actually withstand it. I still don't think it will happen, but it is uniquely possible.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Jul 26, 2016 -> 09:53 PM) If Boston doesn't make a deal with us at the deadline, then I could see them going all out for Sale during the winter meetings. JBJ or Betts, Moncada, Benintendi and Kopech and a smaller A prospect. I think it's now or never for a Sale trade. I get the philosophical reasons for a Winter Meetings deal, but I just don't see the Sox being in sell mode this winter.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Jul 26, 2016 -> 05:55 PM) Glad you didn't quote the rest of that conversation, or you'd definitely be banned :lol:

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jul 26, 2016 -> 05:53 PM) Yes it is. Also near MLB ready. I think that's a huge factor. These aren't some Low A ball projects. They're ready to step in next year, if not September of this year. I would be much, much less inclined to trade Sale or Quintana for guys who were several years away, no matter how high their supposed ceilings are.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Jul 26, 2016 -> 04:54 PM) Daryl Van Schouwen ‏@CST_soxvan #WhiteSox VP Ken Williams: 'To say we’re going to be buyers or sellers or some combination, we just don’t know.' Good stuff Kenny. Oh, Kenny. You never change. To quote Buster Bluth... "It's like he gets off on being withholding."