Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (zenryan @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 05:13 PM) Yeah, MMA.tv is 1000x better. I post on the OG but the UG is a good read unless its the day on an event. Sherdog has seems like they are still bitter at the UFC for the whole TUF leaking a few years back. I cant believe ESPN hitched their wagons to s***dog. They went with Sherdog because of web traffic I'm sure. Just my guess, but they probably wanted to draw Sherdog's fanbase to ESPN's MMA page and if/when ESPN's MMA page grows enough in terms of traffic, I imagine ESPN will drop the affiliation with Sherdog and provide their own original content. It's probably a trial/introductory thing right now.

QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 01:07 PM) I seem to recall him crapping his pants in the 6th before getting bailed out by Alexei. The playoff teams are more likely to represent the 2008 Rays, certainly not the last place 2008 Tigers. Yeah, pitching against last-place teams is easy, especially if names in the lineup include Curtis Granderson, Placido Polanco, Magglio Ordonez, Miguel Cabrera, Carlos Guillen, etc. Piece of cake.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 12:10 PM) If they include those two teams, the possiblity exists of a Miguel Cabrera type trade where they take on Wells or Rios contract, as well as Halladay. It would be win/win for Toronto. Yeah I could definitely see the Jays dealing with them in that case. Rios is one thing because his contract is at least reasonable if not a bargain should he return to form, and it carries him through his physical prime, but Wells is a different story altogether. If someone offered to take on Wells they could probably get Halladay plus for basically nothing. That contract is horrific. Just look at what carrying around Helton's contract has done for the Rockies all these years. That's your future Toronto Blue Jays, although unfortunately for them they play in a division that is about 1000X tougher.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 12:15 PM) LOL, yeah why would we need a perennial Cy Young contender when we can experience growing pains and career uncertainty instead? I'd just like to point out how awesome and truthful this post is. If we keep every one of these kids it's not likely they'll come up and be Alexei or Beckham and produce right away. And knowing Ozzie, the Sox, and us hardcore Sox fans, we are due for tons more "Why is Ozzie playing (insert random career minor leaguer's name) over (insert former top prospect's name)?" threads in the future.

QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:44 AM) the key word is had... not will have. What type of future will a 32 year old pitcher who's gone 220IP+ over the past 3 years, have in the next 2-3 years. (even though he's only signed thru next season) Will a 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 version of Roy Halladay (so 33, 34, 35 and 36 yrs old) be greater than Tyler Flowers, Aaron Pordea, Clayton Richard and Chris Getz's version in 2011, 2012, 2013. That's got to be the big question. Short term, 2009 only, its a steal. Long term?????????? I'd say yes on all counts with the only question being Flowers. Getz is replaced by Beckham, and Beckham should easily out-produce Getz. Poreda just means we extend Thornton when it's time. Richard = back end starter or top-level setup man IMO, never anything close to Halladay, and if we need a 5th starter or lefty setup man we can find those. Flowers is the only one I'd ever expect to do really great things, but it's not like that's set in stone. That deal would be a steal for the Sox and Jays fans would be rightfully pissed if it went down. We'd probably have to take on somebody's contract to get it. BTW what about Halladay's career suggests he's going to suddenly start to suck when he hits his mid-30's? Lowe is signed through 39 and is having a decent year at 36, and he's not Halladay. Curt Schilling was awesome at 39. Randy Johnson was amazing through Age 38 and then only came back down to earth later on. He's also having a decent year right now and he's 45. Nolan Ryan was excellent until he was 43 and then retired at 46. Clemens has the steroid thing, but it takes a lot more talent than roids to put up a 1.87 ERA in 211.1IP as a 42-year-old. Jose Contreras, who has been up and down obviously, is reported as 37 right now and has been great for us since fully coming back from his achilles tear - and that achilles tear wasn't an "age" thing at all. That can happen to any player of any age at any time if make the wrong moves on a baseball field. Halladay may not be any of those guys, but they're all power pitchers, and he keeps himself in shape, and as a workhorse he's a lot closer to that breed than your CC Sabathia's, Bartolo Colon's, Jake Peavy's etc. of the world. Anything can happen, but I would in no way feel scared of locking him up through 36. After that, I think you have to wait and see how he performs before extending him further.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:37 AM) Adding Rolen and Halladay would easily make us favorites in the central. Move Slayer to 2B, we got the return of Q. Look at that lineup: 1. Pods, CF 2. Ramirez, SS 3. Dye, RF 4. Thome, DH 5. Konerko, 1B 6. Rolen, 3B 7. Quentin, LF 8. Pierzynski, C 9. Beckham, 2B Plus, we'd have one of Halladay, Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, or Contreras on the mound. Awesomeness. At that point I'd want a lot more than just making the playoffs. That's a potential "all the way" team right there. Good god, imagine being a pitcher and trying to get through that lineup! And then knowing at the same time you can't afford to give up much because our rotation is above average and our pen is stacked.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:04 AM) I think one of these would be a good reaction to them wanting Beckham: That's what I'll start doing the moment a trade is announced, assuming we get him. BTW I also really question the early reports on these things anyway. Rosenthal says the Jays "wouldn't hesitate" to open bidding to the Yankees and Red Sox. Really? I imagine the priorities go 1) dump Wells in the deal, 2) dump Rios in the deal, 3) NL, 4) anywhere but the AL East where he'll kill us all year.

QUOTE (dpd9189 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:04 AM) I just don't see the Jays dealing him unless someone offers the farm. This isn't Peavy, Halladay is better and the Jays would want a kings ransom for him. I don't see KW or any other GM doing this unless they don't mind losing their top 3-4 prospects. Exactly. The only way Halladay comes cheap is someone takes on Rios or Wells - especially Wells. If someone takes on Wells then they can probably get Halladay for a package as weak as one centered around Richard or Fields.

If the deal a previous poster mentioned would work (Halladay for Flowers + Poreda + Richard + Getz), then I make it in a heartbeat because that would be a great deal for the Sox. I haven't looked at all the stats from everyone, but Roy Halladay has probably been the #2 SP in all of baseball over the last 8 years, only trailing Johan Santana. He is beyond amazing and I am confident in saying that no one in our minor league system, and probably no prospect we'll add to our system over the next 5+ years will ever have the type of career Roy Halladay has had. To give up everything we've got would be dumb, and potentially devastating, but a deal like that above would still save enough future pieces while keeping the veteran core intact. It would be a steal actually, and if I were a Jays fan I'd definitely want more. The key would be an extension as he's only signed through 2010, but Halladay has never come off as a pure money guy. He's basically been Toronto's Buehrle and to even mention dealing him shows just how much the Jays need savings. Lots of players don't even want to play in Canada, and he stayed there when he could have hit the market and got a lot more in terms of money and years. We might have to give Halladay an extra 3 years in order for him to stop from hitting the market and getting 5 from a big money team, but I'd definitely do it if we had to. He is one of those extremely rare pitchers that I would agree to pay through his Age 36 season. Keep in mind too that Derek Lowe is signed through his Age 39 season and is having a decent year at 36 right now, so it's definitely not unprecedented, and it's definitely far from from a sure thing that he'd be ineffective as a 35-year-old and going forward. Saying Halladay will fall apart during those years is just a guess, and not even an educated guess because his history has not shown great cause for concern. And as I said before in this thread or some other, an older Halladay is a much better bet IMO than an younger Peavy. My top offer for Halladay would be something like Flowers (centerpiece) + Poreda + Hudson + Jays' pick 2 of DCarter/Leesman/Upchurch/Infante/Jones/Santeliz/Omogrosso PROVIDED we get a window to work out an extension before the trade is completed. Yes that is a bundle of talent, but we're probably going to end up dealing Bobby and/or Paulie at some point so we'll get some of that back. My favorite type of deal would be one where we also get Rolen in order to assume some salary in exchange for giving up less in prospects, and then we keep Poreda and deal Richard instead. Halladay + Rolen for Flowers + Richard + Hudson + Fields + low-level prospects would work out great for us, because we upgrade Fields and Richard at the cost of Hudson, Flowers, and a spect. Then Poreda becomes the 5th starter in 2010 after Jose leaves, and Viciedo comes up in 2011 after Rolen is gone. Getz and Nix both take UT roles with Beckham moving to 2B.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) The interesting thing about Flowers is...he could actually improve offensively but take a huge dip in trade value. If he's not a C in the future. So, in a way that has nothing to do with his offensive future, it might be sell high time. He's not super-young, just young. I don't really think so, I mean, any team looking to acquire him knows he hasn't been catching very long, so any team that wants him is going to want him because of his bat. As I saw it, the biggest question going into the season with Flowers was not whether he'd be able to stick at C but whether his bat would play at 1B. If so, then it doesn't really matter if he sticks at C or not. It's great if he does, but if he's going to be hitting 30 HR and getting on at a .370+ clip in the Majors then you probably want him in your organization regardless. So far, Flowers has shown this year that you can expect his bat to handle 1B in case it doesn't work out at C and that is nothing but a huge plus. As for selling high, how do we know we'd be selling high? Why not let him tear up Charlotte first and let him get tons of press as being a guy who had been knocking on the door and now is about ready to bust it down? And do we have any reason to expect him to tank it in the immediate future which would force us to sell him now? Selling high is a term you normally reserve for guys who play above their heads (Marco Scutaro, Russell Branyan as examples this year) or injury-prone guys who are finally a bit healthy (the Harden deal last year) or just players with very limited ceilings in general, or players who have one exceptional tool and nothing else but are highly overrated because of their age and position. There are probably other types too, but Flowers isn't exactly a "sell high" guy IMO. You only deal him if you get something that can help you as much as you think he can, both now and in the future.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 12:49 PM) When has KW not mortgaged the future for the present? There is a poster here called Kenny Hates Prospects for a reason. +10, lol QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 12:49 PM) remember KW saying a few years ago that if players had value in the minor leagues he wanted to find a way to translate that value to the big league club. KW has never been shy about trading away prospects, maybe he has turned over a new leaf, but his track record says anyone in the minors can be had in the right deal. Halladay will net Type A compensation after the 2010 season, Haren will cost a ton, but will solidify the rotation through 2013, Johnson is injury prone and has Boras as his agent so I dont see KW spending the farm on him. But KW will trade prospects if it lands the guy he covets. I don't see Kenny dealing everything we've got for one player like would have to be the case with Haren, but Halladay is a guy we might be able to pick up for 1-2 of our top guys and some pieces. If we can do that I am all for it. It just doesn't make sense to trade absolutely everything. BTW the Danks and Hudson love here is astounding. Not that they're not two of our best prospects, but come on, we're talking about Doc Halladay here! We're not ever going to land anyone of Halladay's caliber without giving up prospects who at least have the potential to be above average regulars in the Majors. Jeremy Reed was an awesome prospect, and was viewed as a better prospect at the time than Danks is now. Miguel Olivo was our stud catcher of the future and was practically untouchable, and Morse was the dangerous under-the-radar guy who would have made the whole deal terrible for the Sox if he hit for average and power as a MIF like some were projecting him to. And when we dealt for Freddy back then, Freddy was a soon-to-be free agent and he wasn't anywhere near as awesome as Halladay has been throughout his career. So why would anyone actually expect us to get a much better player who is also under control for longer by offering significantly less than what we offered for Freddy? I don't get all the comments about Halladay's age either. Halladay has never struck me as a guy who was on the edge of disaster. For a veteran pure power pitcher, he's about as low-risk as you're going to find. And why is it so bad that he's a workhorse? Isn't that exactly what you WANT in a pitcher? If he'd been averaging just slightly less than 200IP per season then I wouldn't consider him a true ace anyway. Halladay knows how to pitch too, so even if something did happen, it's not like he'd all of the sudden never be effective again if he lost a couple notches off his fastball. Peavy IMO would have been a much bigger risk than Halladay would be, age questions aside. If Doc actually is out there then we need to definitely explore it. Again though, I wouldn't want to mortgage everything because we're going to be counting on a young core, but if we could use one of our top guys as a centerpiece, then throw in Poreda, and then add in some other pieces who are a bit further away, I'd do it.

This is kind of OT but for some reason, Joe Maddon looks like a child molester to me. I just picture him riding around in one of those windowless work-release center vans with his stupid little Rays hat on and a box of candy sitting on the passengers seat next to the duct tape.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jul 3, 2009 -> 12:17 PM) I was surfing sherdog.com and there's a few threads with links to croation news papers saying Lorenzo got a deal done with Cro Cop to come back to the UFC Sherdog blows. The UG is like a gagillion times better. I used to post at Sherdog but the forum is full of morons and exceptionally angry s***-talkers who take everything personal. They do have some great posters, but they're like little vessels of hope floating atop a sea of bile. And Jake Rossen sucks ass too, as do most of their writers who care more about prose, attempts at humor, and shock value than thoroughness and accuracy, although Jordan Breen is an exception, and Quadros is awesome but I think he's just their radio guy, or at least he was before. Plus none of the fighters even post there anymore I don't think. I know Bas and Baroni used to, but I hadn't seen either on in a while when I stopped going there, and Baroni is on the UG a lot. UG for discussions, MMAJunkie for news IMO. Down with Sherdog. But yeah, I get the feeling the opening might be ditched too. They've been upgrading graphics and have added the fight metric stuff so really the intro is all there is left to update. I admit I like the song though. I don't listen to that kind of music at all, nothing even close to it, but I still like to put it on in the car and blast it because it pumps me up, as dumb as that sounds. The gladiator is lame so I hope that goes.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 01:12 PM) Rolen also has a whole 6 HRs this year. His OPS is nice (due mostly to a very good OBP), but I expect a better slugging percentage for an $11 million player in this economy. I also don't consider 115 and 112 games played anything close to a full or healthy season, and have little confidence that he'll stay healthy down the stretch. I would've given my left nut for Rolen five years ago, but he's clearly on the decline and isn't anything close to a long-term option for hte Sox.. I don't have a problem with the Sox pursuing a veteran 3B, but it's going to have to be somebody who contributes past October (if we get there). Otherwise, it'll be another Griffey-esque waste. I think this economy and our ability to pick up Rolen is actually why we should get him. I actually mentioned this awhile back too. Viciedo is still developing and should be on a plan to start in 2011. Rolen's contract is up at the end of 2010, so if we got him, we know we have defense there and we know we have a bat. No, 6 HR is not a ton, but he's also playing very well on turf in a large ballpark and that is a major statement when it comes to his health questions and his power. Rolen was always more of a pure hitter than a slugger anyway. If we got Rolen, we wouldn't necessarily be counting on him for the playoffs. I'd bring back Uribe who should cost next to nothing and is only making $1M. If Rolen doesn't finish out September, put Uribe's defense there again. Same thing in 2010, maybe a different backup though. Moving Beckham to 2B and putting Rolen at 3B is a major offensive upgrade and should be a defensive upgrade as well given Rolen's ability at the hot corner, so that should hopefully give us another 2-3 wins or maybe even more which could be enough to put us in front this season. Then in 2010 we have a stopgap, and if he gets hurt midseason, oh well, because now Viciedo is probably ready to step up and learn. The key with a Rolen deal is that we get a major upgrade now without sacrificing a big part of the future, plus we get a stopgap for Viciedo, and we do it because the Jays need salary relief. If you think Beckham is our future 3B then that's one way to look at it, but I see our future IF as Viciedo-Alexei-Beckham-Allen/Flowers so even though I like Getz I would be willing to deal him elsewhere. Probably not to Toronto because they have Aaron Hill, but the Braves need a 2B, so do the Mariners, and I'm sure there are others too, so I think we could get something useful there that would make us stronger now without hurting a future team. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 01:12 PM) I shouldn't have characterized Beckham as a "natural" SS. What I meant to convey is that he's more comfortable playing SS than 2B right now. With Alexei having played most of a season at 2B last year and doing it exceptionally well, it would make a lot more sense to move Alexei back there and move Beckham to a more familiar SS for this season, if the Sox Beckham probably is more comfortable at SS, but he's still going to struggle there because he was struggling a bit there in AA too. I've said from the beginning that I want to see the Sox give him positional security so he can learn at the same position he's going to stick at long-term. If the Sox feel he's the SS of the future then Alexei should be the one at 3B or CF or wherever. If they feel he's the 2B of the future then I'm all in favor of putting him there and keeping him there. If they see him as their 3B with Viciedo converting to a corner spot or 1B, then leave him at 3B. I just think they see him as their 2B because that's what he was touted as coming out of the draft and because Viciedo has stayed at 3B in AA.

QUOTE (chisoxfan09 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 12:28 PM) OK I see your point but not at the depth you are trying to imply. Will take me a few more months of growing with the farm system to understand the true value of each and every team and their roster. But what is also true is that not even a deep farm system is a guaranteed recipe for a WS ring. Look at TB. They have stocked up for years and although they made it to the WS they have not cashed in yet. And there is also luck to everything. SOme players that wallow for year in AA/AAA can have a miraculours break out season in the bigs. Anything can happen. BTW, only addressing the farm, not the veteran core that provides run support. TB has to win strictly off their farm basically because of payroll constraints. We've got the best of both worlds at least to a degree. We'll never be the Yanks, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. when it comes to massive payroll + massive farm resources + win-now mentality, but we do have a team that has been in the top-5 to top-10 or so in payroll for a long time, and we do have an aggressive GM who wants to win, and we are taking a more logical approach to the draft when it comes to talent with higher ceilings, and we have at least made a couple big signings out of Cuba. So, we can and will do lots of things other teams will not. What I'd like to see us do is try to put out a good core of young players on small contracts and then supplement that with productive veterans we can afford, most of whom we'll end up acquiring in trade for prospects.

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 12:31 PM) I'd still trade whoever it takes for Haren. It would be nearly impossible to get a starter of that quality via free agency and fit him into the Sox budget. If the Sox trade Flowers or any of the guys slated to take, Dye, Konerko, Thome's place, you could get players via free agency to be productive. If the DBacks can be persuaded, then I'd be putting in a nice bid for him if I were KW. I'd even blow them away. He's a great player no doubt, but I really don't think we need that much of an upgrade to win another title. Look, aces start Game 1, Game 4, and in a huge pinch, MAYBE a Game 7. In 2005 we had 4 guys who, despite their awesome seasons, we nowhere near the type of pitcher Haren has been. And then look at guys like CC Sabathia, Jake Peavy, etc. and what they have done in the playoffs. We don't NEED a Dan Haren to win it all, and even if we got one, there's no guarantee that, just because he's a better pitcher than Jose Contreras was for his whole career minus parts of 2 seasons, he'll pitch as good as Jose did. All we need to do is do what Ozzie said when he first got this job, and that is acquire horses. "You don't take donkeys to the Kentucky Derby," was the quote IIRC. Instead of trading away everything we have got, I say we keep developing a core and then add those horses when we can afford them. One guy who someone made a thread about here was Chien Ming Wang. Apparently he's for sale, and that is a guy we need to take a look at. Kenny built a winner by being smart and finding bargains and projects, and if he does it again it's going to be the same way because that is his MO.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 11:12 AM) Again, you're completely missing the point. The footwork, body movement, arm angle, and throwing motion at 2B are completely different than at SS. It has nothing to do with physical skill, it's about transition time. And there's no point in Beckham making that transition when the Sox are in a tight division race. This isn't rookie development time. Following your logic, Ozzie should be able to move Beckham to CF. Because, you know, he's "baseball retarded" and a "mental midget" if he can't pick it up in a day or two. I'm glad that you're not managing the Sox, because your baseball ignorance is off the charts. I'm glad that you don't have Ozzie's job, because your expectations of rookies are completely unrealistic. Since I'm an adult with a 50-60 hour/week job and a family to support, I'd say that my perspective on the stress of a high-pressure professional job is a bit more informed than yours. Right, being 27 vs. 23 and having that much baseball experience has NO significance whatsoever. Nor does Nix being a career minor-leaguer (drafted in 2001) who didn't play a single Major League game until 2008. I mean, my God, that's an almost EQUAL background to Beckham trading in his aluminum bat last summer to joint the Sox minor league system. Why don't you compare Beckham to Dewayne Wise while you're at it? The Sox invested a first-round pick and a couple million dollars in Beckham last year. They would be smart to handle that large investment carefully at first, and give him time to develop. If Fields weren't so bad, there's no doubt that Beckham would still be at AA right now. I don't even know why you're even talking about moving Beckham to 2B in the first place. First of all, who in the hell are the Sox going to acquire at 3B? Scott Rolen, who's overpaid, injury-prone, and hasn't had a good season since 2006? Secondly, why in the hell would you put Beckham at 2B, when Alexei was a defensive stud there last season and Beckham is a natural SS? That doesn't make any sense. 1. I would disagree with this not being rookie development time. Look at our team: Getz, Beckham, Poreda, Richard all expected to be contributors. Our next 5-6 years are much more important than this one. 2. Beckham already played 2B and by all accounts he did fine. When he was drafted most analysts predicted him as our future 2B. I don't see why he can't make the transition, and also, I don't see why it's such a terrible move. It's not like he's been Joe Crede over at 3B. 3. I disagree that the Sox only brought Beckham up because of Fields. If Fields was hitting the crap out of the ball then I think Beckham would have come up to replace Getz. Beckham was definitely in the plans. If the Sox needed another 3B that badly they would have acquired someone. Beckham's development trumps the 2009 Sox 3B situation so they would have never, ever called him up and asked him to play a new position unless they were 100% sure that he could handle it. 4. Scott Rolen's numbers. Since when is .332/.392/.490 a bad year? BTW Rolen has played in 69 games this year so far, 115 last year, 112 in 2007, and 142 in 2006. 2005 was the last season he missed a huge chunk of time. If we acquired him I would want to deal for a backup just in case 5. I've read since we got Beckham that his range at SS was a bit limited, although I've never seen him play there since I don't get to see the Barons. But again, when he was drafted that was the wrap on him from those who analyzed the pick and did see him play. Alexei has a better arm and probably is rangier, so I don't know why you would call Beckham a natural SS while Alexei is not. Alexei is still learning and should continue to get better with time. And BTW Beckham wasn't exactly Ozzie Smith over at SS in Birmingham from the reports. I believe it was the Barons announcer who said that Beckham made more than a few errors, and even though he termed it in a friendlier way, they basically were the type of errors fans refer to as "stupid" or "lazy," which is just like how Alexei is currently. And I'm not saying either player is in any way stupid or lazy, but they both have their brain cramps and miss their fair share of easy plays that they are expected to make as shortstops. So to expect Beckham, who makes the same type of mistakes as Alexei does, who also has a lesser arm and according to reports not as much range, to come in and be as good or better than Alexei is asking a bit much.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 4, 2009 -> 09:49 PM) Gross...I wouldn't give up our top pitching prospect for an overpaid 2nd baseman. I think Kenny is past his Todd Ritchie moments, and that trade would be one of those. Really Kenny has only made two bad trades since then that I can remember, those being the MacDougal deal and the first Swisher deal. But even then, nobody involved has done anything significant yet and MacDougal actually helped us a ton in 2006 when we had a legit shot at repeating, so it's kind of hard to fault Kenny for the MacDougal deal. In hindsight it was a bad move, but at the time he did exactly what we wanted him to, which was give up a couple players who were several years away in order to help out that pathetic bullpen.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 12:06 PM) nobody's trading Hanson, Price or Wieters for Haren. Just not going to happen. Bucholz maybe, but those first three guys are our beckham - not going anywhere for anything. Nobody's trading Haren either. That's my point. And IMO Buchholz is going to be a better pitcher than Price. I don't see Buchholz going anywhere at all.

QUOTE (chisoxfan09 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 11:27 AM) You are probably right this won´t happen. But another point lost in all of this is that the Sox farm is much better than in previous years and we could afford to give up a package of 5/6 prospects and still keep fielding competitive team at the A/AA levels. This year´s draft was also quite good. No, that is not true. The reason the Sox farm system is so much better is because of the 2009 Birmingham Barons. If we trade the 2009 Birmingham Barons we end up with very, very little. We have some quality prospects behind them, but Phegley is no Flowers, Morel/Gilmore is no Viciedo, CJ Retherford/Tyler Kuhn is no Gordon Beckham, and so on. BTW I don't think you understand how much run support this team is going to lose when PK, AJ, Dye, and Thome all are gone. I don't think you understand how bad our pen will probably be when we can't afford to keep paying Bobby arb and Dotel is gone. We may have some salary space this year, but I don't know if you understand that to just replace Dye's production alone with another younger MLB player you're talking about spending probably $75M over 5 years at minimum just on Matt Holliday. We can't just spend money every time we need to close a gap, we really, really need the farm system to start helping us, especially in this economic climate. If we trade 5-6 players and 3 turn into above average or better MLB players at extremely low salaries then we've just forced ourselves to spend another $20M+ plus just to become good enough to make the guy we traded for actually an upgrade and not just a luxury on a mediocre-to-bad baseball team. I have no problem dealing prospects at all, but we do not in any way have the depth to absorb the type of loss a Haren trade would incur, and even if we did have the depth to absorb it in 2-3 years, now is not the team to make those deals because our veteran core is all gone after 2010, with a few guys probably leaving after this season. If we make that Haren deal, by the time we rebuild the top levels of the farm our young core is getting too expensive to keep intact, and now our window of contention is only 1-2 years tops. If we do it the right way, we should hopefully end up with at least a 4 year window.

QUOTE (scenario @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 10:51 AM) Anderson, Cunningham, and Carter began the year as the A's #1, #4, and #6 prospects. Anderson (#7 prospect in all of MLB according to Baseball America) has started 14 games for the A's this year... including a 7-1 win over the Tigers last week. Greg Smith started 32 games for Oakland last year with a 4.16 ERA. Aaron Cunningham is raking in AAA while waiting for a spot to open up in Oakland's crowded outfield. Carter lead all of MiLB in homeruns last year and is tearing up AA this year. CarGon was one of the keys to the A's getting Holliday... is only 23 and is tearing up AAA for Colorado this year. I don't think I have to go on... that's an absolute boatload of talent... all given up for Haren. I'll say it one last time, then I'll shut up... Interesting to talk about but... NOT.GOING.TO.HAPPEN Yeah, I agree. The D'backs gave up an absurd amount of talent to get him and now he's an even better deal than he was before due to the extension. The Angels can "talk" all they want, but if I'm the D'Backs and I'm seriously considering taking offers for Haren, I probably start with Atlanta, Boston, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Texas, etc. because they've all got guys the Angels, Sox, and most other teams can't beat. We'd need a quantity of quality, and I think we'd only really get deep into discussions if nobody offered up Hanson, Heyward, Buccholz, Price, Wieters, etc. Haren isn't the type of player you just all of the sudden deal because some team offers an intriguing group of players. You shop him until you find the greatest offer possible and then deal him for the best package built around the best player.

Lopez is going to bring in a couple good prospects, so I don't think the it's worth the Upgrayedd over the double dose of pimpin' at 2B with Getz and Nix. I really think if we continue to leave them out there we'll end up with some value to deal over the offseason if we decide to slide Beckham over for 2010 and going forward. I want no part of Freddy Sanchez. He's a good hitter, but he's overrated and also overpaid when his option vests. The only upgrades I'd really look forward to would be long-term solutions in the rotation, CF, RF, or 3B with Gordon moving to 2B. Short-term deals where we give up prospects don't work for me. Our pen has the ability to be possibly the best in baseball on talent alone. Jenks, Dotel, and Linebrink from the right side, plus Thornton and Poreda from the left side, with Carrasco doing a great job as a LR. This could be the best bullpen we've had down the stretch that I can remember, as even in '05 Marte fell apart and Hermanson got hurt. We had 3 awesome late-inning guys and another good LR, but this year we have a chance to have 5 awesome late inning guys if Liney steps it up. I'd like to throw one thing out there, but it's kind of scary, but kind of interesting too IMO. What about Alex Rios? Over the offseason the Jays were rumored to be offering a good prospect or young pitcher just to get someone to take Rolen off their hands. They really need to ditch some of their large, long-term contracts, and nobody would even come close to trading for Wells. My question is, if the Jays offered us Rios *and* threw in a very good prospect (not Snider or anything, but a guy who would rank in our top-10 with star potential), *and* if we could get him for basically nothing, like a package of bodies centered around Fields and Russell or something, would you do that deal? I actually might really consider it, and I'd probably make it, despite the contract. Alex Rios is a natural CF who only moved because of Vernon Wells. He's signed at basically $12M/year through 2014 (through his Age 33 season, so right through his prime). A year ago I would have wet my pants just thinking about getting him for a fair package, and I would have s*** myself and then rolled around in it and then ate some of it if someone had told me we'd be able to get him for nothing *and* get a top prospect in return, but this year, in this economy, that actually sounds doable. He'd be our long-term CF and he has the potential to, in a new environment that is a hitter's park, start hitting for power like was projected to all along. He could also play in RF too if we wanted to go with an OF of CQ-D2-Rios. It would be the ultimate high risk/high reward move, because if he can get back to putting up his 2007 numbers in the Cell through his prime, that's nothing but awesomeness, especially in CF. All he has to do is have one monster year for that deal to look like a bargain even in this economy, but right now it seems like the perfect storm for him to be dumped for garbage.

Chris Getz, our current 2B, is the last homegrown player to come up all the way through the ranks with excellent fundamentals. In your post you then go on to ask another question. The last guy who had excellent fundamentals and came up through the system who was very good (meaning he could hit) and never changed positions? Does such a player exist? It wasn't Crede at all. Crede sucked for some time as he developed. Usually young players struggle and nobody is perfect fundamentally and defensively. The type of player you're describing in your second example sounds Longoria-like, and those players are extremely rare, obviously. Beckham is/was our best prospect in quite some time and even he messes up, and he also changed positions, and he never really went all the way through the system. He just kind of took a short baseball vacation between college and the Majors.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jun 29, 2009 -> 05:55 PM) If a team offered us a great deal for Pods, fine, but I doubt that's gonna happen, so there really is no point in trading him. And Thome ain't going anywhere either due to the fact he can play only DH and has his NTC, and he prefers to stay in Chicago or back to Cleveland. If we went into full sell mode, we're looking at Dye for sure being on the block. His name has been involved in trade talks dating back to 07, so it'd come to no surprise if he does wind up getting traded. I don't think we need a great deal to move Pods. If some team came along and offered us a package including a young power arm who has produced in Low-A or higher, and/or a young toolsy position player who has produced at Low-A or higher, then I make that deal if our scouts like those players.

I think it makes sense to take offers on all players who are not expected to be part of our 2011 team and going forward. If we get offers for prospects or projects who will help us in the future or possibly help us acquire veterans for the future then we should make those deals. One obvious exception would be Buehrle, who IIRC runs through 2011 but should - if he wants to continue playing, and playing for the Sox - be extended afterwards.