Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (shipps @ Jun 9, 2009 -> 08:23 AM) Is it me or does it feel like there is going to be some trades happening here really soon. I think by Fields' comments he is expecting to be shipped out, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Kenny oblige him. This team is really a mess right now, but I don't like bringing Poreda up without giving him lots of regular work - unless of course it is to showcase him for a trade that brings us a top-end starter.

QUOTE (ObamaKnowsBest @ Jun 7, 2009 -> 12:58 PM) Do you really think Beckham is expecting positional security? He's a rookie for crying out loud. Sure he wants to play, but any real ball player knows that they have to earn it and nothing is going to be handed to him. I don't think this will mess with Beckham's head at all. He knows what he's here for. Force the other players to play better or he's going to be taking their spot. Simple as that. And if Fields and Getz can't handle competition we don't want them in the lineup. I don't see Beckham as the type of player you just throw in somewhere and force to compete. He's a special case. Treat him the way elite prospects are supposed to be treated: open a spot, let him get comfortable, and let him struggle and learn without throwing him under the bus.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jun 7, 2009 -> 12:13 PM) Or at least not have them go to a movie together. What's funny is that the Wilkes Booth team is a Yankees affiliate with a stars-and-stripes studded tophat as a logo. Talk about mockery...

I wouldn't let that Wilkes Booth team anywhere near the Lincoln Saltdogs of the Independent League.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 08:13 PM) You really think his arm is going to hold up for that kind of work load? I don't like the idea of long deals to pitchers no matter what, but that's what you have to do sometimes.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 08:06 PM) In all seriousness, the only way I would touch Zambrano is if about half of that contract got picked up. He would be a solid middle of the rotation guy, who would give you spectacular games here and there, but he would also get you a solid 200 IP a year. I wouldn't want him at the ridiculous annual price tag though, as that wouldn't be worth it. I'll say right now that I would give up the exact package we offered for Peavy in a 3-way deal that would bring us Zambrano IF the Cubs did as you said and ate a large chunk of his salary. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've always like Z, ever since he came up. I personally find his antics amusing and I'd only be pissed if he hurt himself during the process.

I say make a deal to give Beckham positional security. And I want him at 2B, so open 2B up and keep him there. Either play Fields at 3B or trade the guy and acquire a veteran. What the Sox are doing right now is probably not good for anyone involved.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 10:45 PM) There's no reason why Morgan shouldn't be a part of their future plans. He's very solid defensively, and he's done nothing but hit at the MLB level. There really doesn't seem to be much of a difference between him or Hernandez, except Hernandez is still a ways away and Morgan has proven to be able to hit MLB pitching. If they got rid of Morgan because they have Hernandez, it just shows how incompetent they really are. If they were smart, they would have chose to go into next year with Morgan in LF, McCutchen in CF, and McLouth in RF. I'm sorry, but you don't trade your best player and the fan favorite in Pittsburgh for a mediocre pitcher and 2 guys with upside but aren't near MLB ready. Thats a huge slap in the face to the fans. If they put Morgan out there I'd like him if he comes cheap enough. Disagree on McLouth though. I love what the Pirates have been doing since the big changes and I think it is going to pay off for them finally. As for their fans, their fans have been slapped in the face far too many times in the past for it to matter much right now. The biggest slaps in the face were taking on players like Randa and Morris for no reason, and handing out lucrative extensions to mediocre offensive, all-defense players like Jack Wilson. And getting nothing for Aramis Ramirez. The Pirates apparently are building a nice core of solid prospects by trading guys they either can't afford long-term or do not see as legitimate impact types. In turn they are targeting impact types through the draft and international free agency. Good for them. And I still think people are underrating Gorkys and Morton. I see both of those guys as future MLB players, with Morton helping very soon. In due time they'll have a solid cache to deal from along with a core of a couple pretty sick young players.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jun 7, 2009 -> 11:08 AM) I'm not writing off Beckham. Where the heck did you get that from? I have consistently said Beckham is part of the solution, not the problem. But it is certainly time to write off Getz, who will never even come within range of being a league average second baseman. He's always going to be a below average guy because he has NO power and no hope of ever developing power. Teams won't be scared enough of him to walk him, so even if he hit .300 he'd still struggle mightily to post a .700 OPS. Right now he's in the low .600s. His runs created per game are in the 3s, which means he's dragging down the offense big time. Brian Anderson is no better, though you see that big body and you think if he were given enough playing time at this point he might start to hit, and to hit with a little power. I'm tired of waiting for it, however. Right now he's also posting a runs created per game total in the low 3s, so he's another drag on the offense. His value is as a reserve outfielder LIDP given his exceptional defense. As for McLouth, for those who continue to knock his offense, please reconsider or continue to look foolish. If you look at his runs created number, which will include the value of his speed, he's creating 6.27 runs per game. That's BETTER than the best two numbers posted by current Sox players -- Jermaine Dye is at 6.07 and Jim Thome is at 6.03. Konerko's at 5.82. I'm not saying McLouth is a better hitter than a healthy Carlos Quentin, but I would say he's as good an offensive player as any other player the Sox currently have. Last year, McLouth posted a 6.67 RC27 number. Dye was at 6.30, Thome at 6.10. Only Quentin, at 7.67, was better. (If you look at Major League CFs by RC27, McLouth ranks in the top-10, in the same zone as Curtis Granderson, Matt Kemp, and Aaron Rowand. He's behind Beltran, Adam Jones, Torii Hunter, and Mike Cameron.) So, as I look at those numbers, I'm even more adamant that the Sox missed the boat here. McLouth is not only capable of fixing CF until Jordan Danks is ready, he's probably a better hitter than Jordan Danks will ever be. Indeed, if the Pirates wanted a CF back in trade, I would have given them Jordan Danks plus two pitchers not named Poreda in the deal if that's what it took. I wouldn't want to unload Danks because we need two outfielders soon enough given Dye's advancing age, and because I'm assuming Danks is a better fielder in CF, but I would have. I also never said what the Pirates got was worthless. What I said is that they got prospects who aren't going to be ready for the majors for a couple of years, which means they may never be ready for the majors. Ratings in that respect are just ratings. Projections. A lot has to happen for those guys to pan out. In the meantime, the Sox would have acquired a 27 year old CF/RF who is signed for 3 years at a very reasonable rate who is hitting better than any player the Sox currently have. He would have filled a gaping hole on the team and given us a much better chance to win this year and next year. Plus, at the end of those two years, he would likely have more value than he has now. No reason to write off Getz. I don't ever think he'll be an All-Star but he can definitely help a Major League team by playing a good 2B and hitting for a high average and drawing a few walks. He doesn't K much and has speed, so he can fill a role. When guys like Jose Lopez are starters you know a guy like Chris Getz can make it somewhere. Don't wait for BA then, go ahead and hate with runs created as your reasoning. What is all this about comparing CFers? He's not a true CF, he's a corner guy, and his power isn't all that great. He's an overrated player IMO. I've said this before, but I think he could easily be the next Eric Byrnes. If he was a much better player I'm sure Pittsburgh would have asked a lot more for him. Atlanta gave up 3 good prospects in a fair deal, and he wasn't worth a superstar. LOL about saying McLouth is probably better than Jordan will ever be. What makes you think that? Because Danks strikes out? Danks already fits in CF better than McLouth does. McLouth has to exceed league average in a corner to be viewed as a very good player, and Danks only has to do the same in CF. McLouth has higher offensive standards to reach because of his poor D in CF. Danks may not amount to anything, but it's dumb to say it's doubtful he'll be any good at this point in his career. McLouth would be another Swisher deal IMO. We're acquiring a non-CF to put in CF and hoping he can fit in a corner long-term. He is not a CF of the future type of talent. If a real CF of the future type of MLB-ready talent became available, then I would think very hard about the deal. We'd have had to give up prospects with higher ceilings than McLouth since we don't have the overall depth the Braves have/had, and I'm pretty much always against those types of deals. As far as CF goes, I'm sure KW could go out and get Randy Winn for next to nothing if he wanted to take on the full contract. There are other options out there that don't involve selling big pieces off the farm.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 11:20 PM) Fedor and Barnett on promoting their PPV, I believe it was part of the deal to let AA on the card since his contract is held by Affliction. Man, Fedor is a bad man, but it's tough to promote him, he lacks the entertainment value outside the ring and stuff like that means alot to grabbing casual fans, especially when the UFC owns most of his old fight footage. Ultimately I think fighters promote themselves through their performances and for that reason I see Fedor as very promotable. The problem is that you can't run a promotion off of Fedor only. If Strikeforce had Fedor I think it would work very well, but Affliction's model has just been idiotic from the get-go. You need to put out a strong overall product that is visible and constantly out there (not like a couple shows per year on PPV), and then you can start putting franchise pieces like Fedor in there as an added benefit. Basically, I feel that neither the UFC nor Strikeforce NEEDS Fedor, and that is why those are the best destinations for him as far as marketability goes. Any promotion that NEEDS Fedor is in really, really big trouble.

QUOTE (zenryan @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 05:22 PM) I'd love to see a Henderson/Couture fight at 205. Ditto. Strength + power vs. technical boxing + cardio. Both have great chins, both great wrestlers, both smart fighters who stick to their gameplans. I'd love to see the clinch battles, plus how Randy would approach the first round, and how Hendo would approach the third if it got there, which I think it would. I don't think Randy is in any way done either. I think he looked great against Brock but Brock's size, wrestling, power, and athleticism was just too much for any traditional boxer/wrestler his size. I'd love to see him back at 205 after Nog, but of course he signed the 3-fight extension and without a belt around his waist, he's allowed to leave the UFC after that expires. After fighting Nog he'll get one more fight, and then he might either retire or chase Fedor again. I hope he sticks around though because he's a great fighter still, and he's still very capable of neutralizing an opponent's strengths by pinning him up against the cage and wearing him down and turning a fight into a conditioning battle. He's one of the best ever, and still very good even at his age. There are still tons of great match-ups for him.

The Rogers KO didn't shock me. I would have picked him but was a bit hesitant due to him not having fought major competition. I wouldn't say AA has a glass chin either, or that he's done. Rogers has sick power. The problem with fights like this is that no doubt AA has the speed and technique, but Rogers is a legit HW, not some tweener who could make the cut to a 225-230 division if one existed. All Rogers had to do is connect with one big shot in order to daze AA enough to finish him. AA would have had to back him against the cage and connect with a flurry, all the while avoiding the clinch, so it was a tough fight for him. AA still is very good but I think what we're seeing with Carwin, Lesnar, and now Rogers mainly is the emergence of true dominant HW fighters. The HW division has been the last major division to evolve, but it will. Soon enough size will matter a lot more than skill, and then we'll get to a stage where you need both. I've said for a long time that there needs to be a division between 205 and 265 and I think sooner or later we'll see it. The Diaz fight didn't shock me either. The guy has proven now that he can compete with high level MW and he can let his body fill out in that division and be successful without having to make the cut to WW. The only thing that shocked me was Shields beating Lawler. Had no idea that was going to happen, picked Lawler by KO/TKO early. I didn't think Shields would be able to take him down and I didn't think Shields would be able to strike with him, but he caught him in that standing guillotine which was really unexpected IMO. I think if those two were to fight again Lawler would take it though, and no discredit to Shields either. Hopefully Shields' contract is up soon so he can go to the UFC and fight the best in his division. Enough with the catchweights. I want to see Shields-Condit II and tons of other fights. I also really want to see the UFC pick up the guy who Shields beat prior to this, which is Semtex. I think there are a lot of great fights for him in the UFC, specifically Tamdan McCrory and the loser of Swick-Saunders. Riggs, Baroni, Randleman, and Whitehead are all mediocre fighters at best, but props to Strikeforce for capitalizing on known names to draw an audience. They should have put Feijao on the main card though. Even though he lost, he'll be back. The big guys at Blackhouse all love his potential and say he's a beast, and when those guys talk somebody up, it's not hype. I'd say that was a good card overall though. Really, really excited about WEC tonight. Taking Brown via stoppage. Urijah is going to have trouble getting Brown down and Brown has the reach and power, plus he's very technical and experienced, and IMO he's a lot more capable of fighting the perfect fight than Urijah is. Urijah's recklessness I think will show itself, and I think Urijah is at a disadvantage also standing up because if he gets in close and hurts Brown, Brown is capable of putting him on his back, defending subs and GNP'ing Faber. Also, go Jose Aldo! The dude is a freak! Cub Swanson is no joke but he has the P4P worst tattoos in all of MMA and I don't see how he can deal with Aldo's kicks. The dude is so quick in and out and such a great finisher, so what do you do? Take him down? Aldo also has a strong BJJ game so I think he can hold his own there, unless he's in there with a truly awesome wrestler with a great base and strong top game, and I don't think Swanson fits that description. Wagnney Fabiano might give him trouble though in the future if he has to get another fight before a title shot, but I predict Aldo-Brown being made for WEC 43 after tonight. Bowles and Torres will go at it for WEC 42.

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Jun 7, 2009 -> 02:00 AM) Shields is the s***. Plain & simple. I would love to see this guy in the UFC. Easily the best guy @ 170 not in the UFC. /end nuthugging rant. I wouldn't call that nuthugging because it is the truth. Outside of the UFC the WW division is really lacking. Shields is #1 no doubt, then I'd go Sakurai, after that it's debatable. There's nothing left for Shields outside of the UFC.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 11:48 AM) Once the Barons clinch the first half, first place, I expect both Allen and Danks to be promoted assuming they still are playing well. Retherford might also, but that would mean three AAA people have to be demoted or released, which is a lot. I don't think they would go from AA to the majors with Danks, giving him some AAA time would be good. Allen could also be test more and I think his prodigious power would show up more in Charlotte. That's exactly why I don't want him anywhere near Charlotte. I loved his game in Spring, and by all accounts he's kept it up all season so far. No need to put him in a park where he'll be prone to swing for the fences. It's his current approach only that will get him to the bigs. Retherford OTOH I want to see get time in Charlotte. He must be struggling though because it says he's only hitting .307. Maybe he needs more seasoning because he's supposed to be hitting north of .330 right now.

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 11:03 AM) We need to draft more "can't miss" prospects like Hee Chop Soi, Gary Scott, Kevin Orie, Felix Pie, and Corey Patterson. Lots of people have told me they are going to be superstars. if the sux had ne braynze corie pattersen wud be r leedoff hitter rite now but hes not cuz there morans

That asshat still doesn't know who the f*** Harold Baines is!

Kill him. Just kidding, I like the Cork-a-roo. Seems like a great guy and I want him to succeed. If it were me, I'd see if I could get a prospect for Cole Armstrong. I don't think he's Flowers' future backup (that should be an established veteran who is there to help him along) and I don't see him ever backing up AJ because he is a lefty. Deal off Armstrong, clear another roster spot on the 40-man, and try to pick up a project reliever with a big league arm in the process, or something similar.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 10:45 AM) On that one I'll reluctantly agree. If we're going to bench Anderson for someone, at least let it be D2: the mighty Danks. I could live with that. I just fear that we'll call up Danks, send down Anderson, and Danks will only wind up playing 1/3 of the games because Wise needs his at-bats. The funny part is, I read that and thought you must be joking before it dawned on me that actually, that is a possibility. It's funny how easily what should be obvious jokes re: our CF situation end up turning into frightening realities. Or even outfield matters as a whole, like keeping Ryan Sweeney in Charlotte during a 90-loss season in order to play Scott Podsednik and Darin Erstad. If that happens though, I fully believe Kenny Williams will set a new world record for table flipping. I'm of the opinion - or maybe it is an irrational hope - that Ozzie is the one who won't play BA, and that Kenny never acquired a long-term CF option because he wanted BA to take the spot. If Ozzie tried benching D2 I have to imagine Kenny wouldn't sit back any longer. He'd get in Ozzie's face and let him know what's up.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jun 2, 2009 -> 02:20 PM) Love Hendo, fight for fight he's had one of the toughest careers, he's awesome. FWIW, Dana is in LA at a meeting with Lorenzo Fertitta (sp?) working on a deal that "will change the face of MMA and UFC." Usually when he says this it is a big business deal and it honks MMA message board fan boys off. So I'm speculating a big sponsor (like Reebok or Nike) or a big foreign TV deal Actually I agree with Dana on his previous huge announcements that have pissed people off. The video games, action figures, all the other merchandise, the Bud Light sponsorship, Lorenzo taking on major role in sanctioning and international expansion, etc. have all done and will continue to do enormous things for the brand itself, and the stronger the brand is, the more it will benefit the sport as a whole. I think some fans simply don't realize that, and I'm guessing it's because they're stupid. Sorry, but Lorenzo stepping in to, among other things, resolve the AKA issue, expand the sport and brand globally, and push through sanctioning are far more important long-term than Fedor is. Speaking of which, the first step to MMA in Madison Square Garden has been taken. That is HUGE. I'm hoping this announcement is a network deal, preferably one that showcases a weekly or bi-monthly fight card, and not some sort of new fight hype or catch-up program like Countdown or Unleashed. Or maybe a new or revised deal with Versus to show more WEC events, because WEC really needs to put on more shows since they're so unbelievably awesome. PS agree on Hendo. Your comment reminded me what a tough dude he is, I almost forgot. He kind of flies under the radar. Just looking at his fight finder is like reading a who's who of MMA. Anderson, Franklin, Renzo, Nog, Wandy, Arona, Ninja, Rampage, Babalu, Newton, Belfort... it just goes on and on. How many future HOF-caliber fighters can you possibly fit into one resume? The only current names he's missing are guys like Shogun, Fedor, Lyoto, Randy, etc. but I think that 3 of those fights could possibly happen. And now that I think of it, I'd be 1000X more interested in Hendo vs. Randy than Nog vs. Randy. I know they used to train together and are probably friends, but he did fight Rampage, and Randy is game, so I really hope that one happens at some point. I still think Randy has another few fights in him.

I didn't expected to hear this, but I trust Buddy Bell. If Buddy Bell says he's ready, and if we're not going to give Anderson a full year, then there's nothing to lose. Bring the kid up.

Hope everybody gets well soon.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 09:58 AM) Ok here's a scenario then for all of the people who wanted McLouth here for the Sox? Would you trade for Aaron Rowand right now considering; 1 - He's got what 3 and a half years and about $50M left on his contract. 2 - And he's hitting .294/.357/.486 right now (hence the Giants prob wouldn't giv him up considering their lack of offense). Whoever suggested Hunter Pence though, that kid is on fire and he's got an OPS of .919 so far this season. Would love to have him, but boy he wouldn't come cheaply that's for sure. No chance on Rowand. The salary space we have going forward is going to disappear quickly, and it when is does disappear, I want it to disappear because we have added a legitimate ace to the front of our rotation.

QUOTE (SoxFan101 @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 03:57 AM) Im not overly impressed with any of the prospects the Pirates got for McLouth, I dont think any of them end up being impact players in the majors at all. The one who might seems to be Locke, but Gorky's to me looks like a 4th OF and the 3rd guy has stunk in the majors already. I don't think McLouth was going to end up bringing in any impact prospects anyway, at least not from a smart GM. Maybe if their GM shopped McLouth he could have gotten a better prospect from someone, but the risk there for an organization like Pittsburgh is that if you shop McLouth it's bound to take off in the media, and even though they already have a horrible reputation and their fans are angry, you don't want to make it worse by making matters public. They wanted to deal McLouth and they wanted to do it quietly, and I think they got a good return.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 07:06 AM) If you wanted a comparable package, on possibly the low-end, it's probably something along the lines of Poreda, Shelby, and Hudson. Just gonna throw that out there. I really don't think we have anything comparable. In our system we've got a few guys who are as advanced, but those guys are all either way better than the guys the Braves traded or are not anywhere near as good of prospects as the Braves guys. The Braves have (or had) such a great system because there were the untouchable superstar prospects, some solid prospects in the middle, then some low-level guys with potential. The Braves traded solid, advanced, non-star prospects from that middle area which for the most part we do not have. I think if we were going to beat the Braves package value-wise, we'd have had to either offer one of our top-level prospects (like your package above), or we'd have had to make up the difference in quantity from the lower levels of the system. Either type of deal is very dangerous for us because we're forced to give up players with higher ceilings than the guy we're trading for, and the guy we're trading for is a lot more solid than star. I don't see the risk/reward being there for McLouth. He'd be a future corner OF for us, and in our park I want someone with more power there anyway. If Kenny knew McLouth was on the market and still didn't make the deal, then I support him 100% on that, and I am glad he didn't.

QUOTE (scenario @ Jun 4, 2009 -> 12:44 PM) Baseball has used statistics for a very long time. Badly. That is the point of the whole sabermetric 'thing'. Yikes. You are the king of the straw man argument aren't you? Bottom line is that good executives use good numbers to make good decisions. Bad numbers lead to bad decisions. Very simple. And for a long time baseball executives were using bad numbers to make decisions. Sabermetrics has advanced the science of baseball decision-making. That is not an opinion. That is a well-established fact. But, you can make up all the 'unique' arguments you want to try and disprove that if it will make your feel better... Now you're putting this one stat under a whole umbrella of sabermetrical protection by association. We're not talking about a large number of anonymous stats which the game - in your opinion, not fact - is better for. You try to call me out on a straw man because you can't even respond to the question. Again, how does pythagorean win total help anyone solve anything? Not even actual records - much less totally meaningless ones - help anyone solve anything, because you have to look at the reasons for each win or loss to decide what your weaknesses are. The figure itself tells nothing. I mean, do you even know what a straw man is? You were defending the pythagorean win total as not only an important figure, but also as a reasonable evaluation tool. I tell you that is idiotic and explain exactly why, then you call a straw man? What? But instead of actually explaining why pythagorean wins are so important to a baseball exec, you'll probably respond with some kind of insult, and I'm guessing the reason will be because you feel that an attack on the legitimacy of one worthless statistic is also an attack upon your religion as a whole, so you'll get offended. BTW it is your *opinion* that Bill James has done sooooo much for baseball. It may be a fact that his philosophies and recommendations have been used, and it may be a fact that some people have attributed success to them, but it is an opinion that his methods are better than any others. Tell me, are hitters today better than they were 10-20+ years ago? What about pitchers? And if so, how exactly does this relate to Bill James and not to more baseball academies, better sports medicine, alterations to the game itself, expansion, improved technology, a more profitable game, etc.? You sit there and say everyone was making all these bad decisions before, in a whole other era, but then everything changed for the better once Bill James came around. This is exactly the problem with you people: you believe one thing and you won't admit that it's just your own view. It's some great formula that can't be f***ed with. You make your assertion, knowing it cannot be proven, and you play it off as fact. Tell me, did Bill James bring us Carlos Quentin or Gavin Floyd? Or was that a lot more scouting, with a look at minor league stats as a form of reassurance? What were these good numbers that brought us these players here recently but wouldn't have brought them in the past? And please, what is a "good number" versus a "bad number?" Why am I not able to appropriately judge a pitcher simply off of his stuff, his peripheral stats, park/playing conditions, and strength of opposition? Why do I need pythagorean wins and win shares and so on? And why are all these numbers revolutionary? If scouting has improved because stats have improved, then I believe it is because of better technology, more man power, greater funding, and easier access to information. I don't believe it has anything to do with adding a bunch of numbers together.