Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 26, 2009 -> 09:49 PM) If Flowers is our starting catcher, we should do our best to find a lefty hitting back-up catcher. Lucy is terrible..he makes Corky Miller look like a good hitter. If Flowers is our starter this year then we need to bludgeon Kenny first and foremost. The guy should come up when he's ready behind the plate. Paying him service time to learn how to play the field at the Major League level is not a very smart, because by the time he's good enough to be an asset we'll have to start thinking about extensions, and that's only if it all goes well. If he comes up and doesn't hit right away and provides bad defense, and hurts his pitchers in the process, he'll get thrown under the bus by Ozzie, ripped in the press, and benched. We've all seen this s*** before. The whole thing is a horrible idea. Flowers can't come up this soon. It's setting him up for failure along with wasting service time and options all for the sake of some offense during a bad season.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jun 26, 2009 -> 09:21 PM) If we blow it up, I see Pierzynski as the likely trade candidate with Castro as the guy staying to be the vet leadership with Flowers as the catcher. I think Dony Lucy has a chance to be a solid backup catcher in the future. Not much of a hitter, but from what I've heard, read and the little I've seen, he seems like a really smart player who's very good defensively, and JPN always says he's tough as nails. I can live with a weak hitting backup catcher if they play really good defense and don't play more than 1/5 of the games. I think it would be an enormous mistake to call up a catcher who is not ready to catch in the big leagues. Enormous might even be undercutting it. There's no reason not to have Flowers on a trajectory for Opening Day 2011. If he makes major strides behind the plate and is capable of at least being an average defensive backup by mid-2010 then maybe call him up then. We have zero reason to rush Flowers here unless we are converting him to a 1B/DH. I also feel the same way about Viciedo. I'm fine with calling up some relievers, also Danks and Allen if we have spots to play them every day. I'm fine calling up CJ too if we trade a couple IF somewhere along the way and have an opening for a UT man. It would be nice to see Cook take Wise's spot also in the event of a blow up. However, the rest of our guys we really need to take our time with.

QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jun 26, 2009 -> 11:53 AM) When he decides to hang it up...start the Hall of Fame clock. If the BBWAA want to REALLY make a steroid statement, Big Frank should be an overwhelming first ballot HOFer. I'm talking near 90% of the votes. If he retires this year, then isn't he in the same class with Maddux, probably Glavine, Kent, Mussina (who probably won't get in but will take votes), etc.? He's definitely deserving, but he might have to wait a year or so. I'm sure there are tons of stuck-up sports writers out there who aren't going to vote for a guy who DH'd a large portion of his career until they basically have to. And then following the year of Frank's eligibility you're going to have Randy Johnson and probably Smoltz too. Maybe even Griffey. And also, isn't this Blyleven's last year of eligibility before having to wait on the veteran's committee? IMO he's a no-brainer HOF player and one of the best hitters in my lifetime, and the fact that he did it cleanly only furthers his case. But, I think there could be some problems for Frank.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jun 26, 2009 -> 07:55 PM) Castro's older than AJ; what do you think? He's a veteran who the pitchers like and he can hit, so maybe. But I think because of his salary he'll be gone after the year. We won't offer him arb and he'll end up signing for near the minimum elsewhere. And actually, if the Sox do blow this thing up, he's a candidate to get moved anyway since the Mets are paying his salary.

I like how we dealt Corky for a guy whose last name is a synonym for toilet. The Reds' fascination with AAAA Sox players continues.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 26, 2009 -> 07:33 PM) Something to keep in mind with Dotel is that he is expected to be a Type A Free Agent. I'd bet almost anything we're not offering arb to a $6M/year set-up man, regardless of how good he is. Even if we can't get a whole lot out of him because of that and our refusal to eat salary, I'd still like to deal him so we have a shot at signing him back over the offseason to a deal much more in line with today's market prices.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 26, 2009 -> 07:40 PM) Tigers are up 4-0 with Verlander on the mound. We're likely going to be 7 games back and trailing a team that is on a 8 game winning streak. It's time KW...come Sunday at 4 PM, I think it will be selling season. I don't think we make any moves until at least the beginning of the second week of July. I've said this before, but I really expect the market to flood with teams looking to dump contracts and save extra money plus maybe get some talent out of players who won't be offered arbitration. I expect teams to wait it out until at least mid-July and then I expect lots of bargains out there for the few contenders capable of assuming major salaries.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 26, 2009 -> 11:29 AM) At this point, anything we can get out of him is a bonus. He'd been pretty much written off the board. Isn't he only like 19 still? Maybe just turned 20? I don't see how he can be written off already. He's not going to make any top prospect lists, but give him a couple years to work his way back. This whole thing for all we know could turn into a blessing in disguise. It's better he got hurt and ditched the slider early rather than advancing a few levels and then having to start from scratch again. And I still like the pick BTW. Give me power armed high schoolers with injury concerns over soft-tossing college hurlers any and every day of the week. We're much likelier to at least get trade value out of those guys than we are to find an average or above soft tosser.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 26, 2009 -> 07:15 PM) I would love to see Carrasco in a 7th inning role where he can stay in for the 8th if he's in control. I actually think he's more valuable to the Sox than as a trade piece. Agree fully. Carrasco's role is constantly underrated in baseball. Because of his arm he probably won't command very much, and since we haven't had anyone reliable in DJ's role since Luis Vizcaino in 2005, I'd like to keep him. A good LR really takes a lot of extra pressure of the late inning guys. I'd take offers on Jenks, Dotel, Linebrink, and even one of Poreda/Thornton. However, except in the case of Linebrink, I don't deal any of those guys unless I'm getting something pretty nice - i.e. a package of prospects or projects/change of scenery types with at least one of those prospects having a much higher ceiling that the guy we're moving. Moving any of them for potential future role players is kind of pointless.

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edit: double post

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 22, 2009 -> 09:34 PM) You have a very different definition of the word "successful" than I do. Yeah, he showed some flashes in 2007. But sorry, a line of .244/.308/.480/.788 doesn't qualify as "successful" to me. That's not getting into the fact that he's a K machine and plays a horrible 3B. Josh has been arguably the worst 3B in baseball this year. That's no exaggeration. Out of all qualifed 3rd baseman, Josh is second to last in average, third to last in HR's, second to last in RBI, and third to last in OPS. His K% is 32.5% (second highest behind Mark Reynolds). His defense has been pitiful. He fails the eye test and is near or at the bottom of every defensive metric that's out there. That's not just a slow start. Josh is bad at baseball. End of story. Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, Tim Wakefield, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Brad Penny and soon to be John Smoltz. A lot of guys would struggle to break that rotation. Because of their unequaled pitching depth, combined with the fact CB obviously had command/control issues, they had the luxury of sending him back to AAA to work his problems out. It had nothing to do with him not being good enough, or a lack of stuff or injury. And now that he's obviously conquered AAA hitters, they're still struggling to find a spot for him because they're so deep pitching wise. And like Zoom said, your Matt Thornton comparison is WAYYYY off and in no ways comparable to the current discussion. I'm not trying to convince you that Josh has no value. I know he has no value. And when the trade deadline comes and goes and he's either still here or we've sent him off for a B or C prospect, you'll see this as well. Nice post. Buchholz is not going to be traded in a "quantity over quality" type of deal. The Red Sox wouldn't deal him for Salty, Teagarden, or even Johan Santana. To think we could pick him up for anything less than the best we've got is kind of spacey, and truthfully, even if we offered Beckham straight-up, that's still an iffy deal for both teams, and I doubt it would get done. And I don't see why the Red Sox would want to lose Buchholz just to upgrade Lowrie, who is already a good player, so an Alexei deal probably doesn't match either. I just can't see any situation where the Red Sox trade him for anything less than an elite young player who is already producing in the Majors and also fills a need they don't think they can fill internally. With the type of money the Red Sox can spend, they can just go out and sign guys when holes open up if they'd like to, so giving up great prospects has to be a special kind of thing for them. Like the Beckett deal, for example. BTW I disagree with those who feel Clay is over-hyped. IMO Bowden and especially Masterson are very over-hyped, but not Clay. He's got a shot at becoming a legit ace, even in a division as tough as the AL East.

We might be better served to blow it up regardless of where we are. The youngsters that will come up this year if we trade some veterans may be able to keep us at least hanging around if nobody else makes a good run. Also, I'd love to trade Dye, Thome, and Dotel if we're not going to renegotiate their contracts. The reason is, I wouldn't mind seeing any of those guys back here in 2010, maybe even all of them, and if we trade them we get around the arbitration problem. If we deal off Thome and Dotel for example, instead of being forced to wait until May or June or whenever it is to sign them at a reasonable rate, we may be able to get both guys back at about $10M combined. Maybe if we explain the situation to some of our veteran players that we'd like to bring them back but we can't afford to offer arb, maybe they'll still consider us over the offseason. I'd much rather deal all 3 of these guys and get a couple prospects/projects in return PLUS have a shot at signing them at a reasonable rate over the offseason than just hang on to them, get nothing in picks, and then certainly lose all 3 because we failed to offer arb. Otherwise, if there is any way to either renegotiate a contract now, or if there's any way to work out a new contract at a lesser amount before the players become FA during our negotiation window, I'd like to do that. Especially in Dotel's case.

QUOTE (joejoedairy @ Jun 21, 2009 -> 05:53 PM) two words, josh johnson if theres anyway the sox could acquire him via trade or when he hits free agency i hope they do everything they can to get him probably just a pipe dream though It's never a pipe dream to imagine the Marlins trading a top young player. He'd be pretty expensive though, but yeah, that would be very awesome. I would think Josh Johnson is a much more realistic target than Haren also. Haren is going nowhere.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2009 -> 05:23 PM) Actually I'd say 6+ years. Depends on when he comes up. If he comes up at 22 and takes a year to adjust to MLB pitching, then he's got a good 11-12 years in his prime, and maybe even a bit more as a guy who can move to 1B or DH later on if need be. Viciedo can be a great hitter for a very long time. Hopefully it all works out for him and the Sox both. I still want more Cubans though.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 11:42 PM) Well I think its how the sport will mature, and grow. Judges see a guy with a takedown, and they consider it dominant position. In reality its what they do with it. You can have a great wrestler take a guy down, then flounder and fail with the top position. Then you can have a BJJ guy who is on his back, attacking from below, setting up submissions, being a good worker. Tonight was interesting because of the amount of damage that Diego put on Guida from the bottom position. The kimura seems to be a go to for a lot of guys, but its a hard submission to get. Working chokes, like a Dars or a arm triangle can be done a lot easier with less energy than fumbling around for the kimura. They also sap the other guys energy. Another thing is guys from the top position. They are always swinging for the fences on trying to hit the head. I would like to see a fighter, use elbows on the rib cage or the stomach. But again, guys are fighting for the card and to get the knockout instead of working for a decision. Its too much of a crap shoot when it goes to the card. A whole new scoring system needs to come about. The 10-point must system needs to be scrapped entirely. Totally agree on a takedown only having meaning if you do something with it. When you take someone down, you're not actually hurting him (unless its a slam or something, or an awkward landing). All you're doing is putting the ball into your court and trying to execute your game. If your opponent nullifies your attack then all you have proven is that you can't effectively work your own game. If you are additionally on the defensive while trying to implement your game then that has to count against you IMO. If you take someone down and then just sit in guard and defend subs or even worse get out-struck from the bottom then that should go against you, not in your favor. You see the kimura used a lot as a transition too, so guys aren't always going for that strictly as a submission. What I'd like to see is a lot more fighters use knees and punches to the body from side control, but it actually seems like there are a lot of fighters who are happier in half-guard than side control and will actually put themselves into half-guard intentionally after getting side control in order to maintain "dominant position," which may be another negative effect of the current scoring system. I just think you can be more dangerous from side control and increase your chances of finishing a fight, but guys like half-guard better because if they can work effectively from that position and not get stood up then it increases their chances of staying on top and scoring with the judges. But yeah, I hate the scoring system in MMA. It needs to be totally scrapped. And very soon too. Guys just keep getting better and better, and fights keep getting closer and closer, and there are a lot more decisions as a result. There needs to be a clear-cut system with well-trained judges that can score on the finer points of a fight, instead of just saying "so-and-so was on top so he won." Even though the Pride system had it's flaws, I think in Pride Diego definitely wins this fight, but in the UFC, Guida could have easily taken the fight or at least picked up a draw because of how f***ed the system is, and how dumb the judges can be, and how ambiguous the scoring guidelines can be.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 11:28 PM) Well I followed them both in Old Dominion and saw them a couple times actually with the gun accuracy of course. But college is a different animal so people change when they reach the minors mechanically, or just filling out, etc.. With the scouting I've read I knew Huddy would increase from the 86-89 and occasional reach back to get extra on his fastball... but not this much. Very good find by the sox. I would definitely say this was a strong mechanic change that did this. Dexter as well, but he still threw harder, just the secondary pitches. Of course a mechanic tweak helps as well. That is an enormous increase! I read before that because of a couple mechanical tweaks they each gained a couple ticks, but going from 86-89 as you say to touching 98 is unheard of. That's something you do in a video game or something, not in real life. If that gun in Birmingham is accurate then WOW!

Diego got robbed of a UD. I had it 30-26 Diego. I could see a 29-27 or 29-28 score for Diego but how he ended up getting a split is beyond me. There's no question he dominated the first round and he easily won the second 10-9 with those nasty elbows. I still don't get how judges score fights the way they do. If you're on top but doing nothing but defending and getting your ass kicked, that is NOT a dominant position for you! LOL. I thought Diego got ripped off by the judges in the Fitch decision and they almost ripped him off again tonight. Something really needs to be done about favoritism towards wrestlers in the Octagon. The cage and lack of soccer kicks is already enough of an advantage for wrestlers as it is.

QUOTE (Cubano @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 11:04 PM) Have you heard about Héctor Lombard? He just won the Bellator championships. He defected in the Sidney Olympics after meeting a British woman. He was about to sign with UFC but visa problems prevented him from doing so. I do not follow the sport to much so I can comment a lot. He has won PRIDE, DEEP and Cage Fighting champiosnhips in Australia. His record is 20-2. LOL You know everything there is to know about Cuban athletes, don't you?

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 10:29 PM) If tomorrow was the division clinching game and we had runners on 2nd and 3rd and were down by 1 in the bottom of the 9th with two outs, and I could pick anyone on the team to bat, it'd be Pods right now. I'd say he's been our best hitter this year, and that's quite sad. I agree with all this. I've dogged on Pods since 2007 saying he wasn't anything close to a Major League starter anymore, but to his credit the guy has shown up. He looks to be a better hitter than he's ever been. I guess that's why it's a strange game. Who would have predicted Ludwick and Cust having break-outs when they did? Who would have predicted Scotty hitting the way he has been? And damn, who would have predicted what Russell Branyan has been doing in Seattle? Russell Branyan could literally win the AL MVP this year. Who in the hell would have ever even come close to guessing that? Edit: Of course for Branyan to take the MVP Mauer needs to seriously cool off. His numbers are beyond gaudy.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 11:09 PM) That is very interesting if that's the case. He wasn't throwing that hard at all in college. I thought only his college buddy Dexter had that kind of velocity and stuff (that's why I was higher on Dex than the intangibles of Huddy) I gotta say that changes alot in my eyes. Damn, I just posted the same thing. I read some stuff online about them while they were tearing up rookie ball and I could have sworn it was Hudson that was the suprise, possible #3-4 guy and Dexter Carter was the one to watch out for. Maybe you read whatever I read.

QUOTE (JPN366 @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 11:04 PM) Dayan's homer was opposite field, no doubter off the bat. Got a fist bump from John Ely, he was charting pitches in the stands, so I gave him props on his start last night. Hudson looked good, his fastball touched 98 at one point and was ranging from 92 to 96 consistently. It actually got faster as the game went on. His change was in the mid 80's. He threw something that was in the 70's too, don't know what it is though. One thing that I saw that concerned me, but may be no big deal...his arm motion, which is three quarters, seemed to put a lot of pressure on his elbow. Of course, it may be nothing. Wow, had no idea Hudson threw that hard. I thought he was low-90's and Dex was the one in the mid-90's.

QUOTE (chisoxfan09 @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 09:10 PM) Kewl, Hudson really shined in his debut tonight. Beginning of 2010 sounds rather quick. Maybe AFL after the season and if he does a ST invite. Kid is only 22. Please keep this kid out of the AFL! That could end up becoming a horrific mistake and there's zero reason for it. None whatsoever. Send the crap pitchers, or your relief prospects, or the guys you're going to try to trade over the winter.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 05:53 PM) But it's ok to act like he's going to stay at third? I don't understand. I've seen him play enough that to me he hasn't changed any of the concerns scouts had when he signed - that he isn't a good defensive third baseman. Again, Josh Fields is way ahead of him defensively and there aren't a lot of people that are happy with his defensive prowess. So what is enough? A few games in ST? How much have you seen him recently in Birmingham? And what does he do that is so wrong he'll never be able to fix, or what does he do wrong that he can't improve on over the next two years?

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 05:32 PM) OK, I'll play: Poreda, Flowers, Getz, Fields and Linebrink for Tejada and Pence. If you had Pence, would you trade him for any one of those players? Houston has Castro as their future catcher. Berkman is at 1B so moving Flowers there probably won't work. Poreda would fit there, but would you really want to trade a proven young productive power-hitting RF for a guy who is a bullpen pitcher now and *might* become an ace in the future if a bunch of things go right? Getz and Fields don't even belong in the discussion in that case. Linebrink is a good reliever with a bad contract. In all, we don't have enough to get players like Pence unless we're trading players we don't want to trade. Now, maybe we'd be able to put together a package for Luke Scott - but for as much as he'd cost, he's also 31 and will be getting pretty expensive. I think we should either be targeting prospects who can grow with the core, cheap reclamation young players, or we should do nothing and try to sign some productive veterans at low prices on short-term deals over the offseason to spot-patch our holes.