Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 04:22 PM) I could see trading one, MAYBE two of these relievers depending on the return since it's in a position of strength, but not dumping the whole bullpen. That just doesn't make any sense, the point in acquiring major league talent is to use it, not to trade it. Sure, Kenny is aggressive, but that's not his MO, he doesn't make trades to maximize value, he makes trades to acquire needs. If he can fill one of those needs by dumping a couple RP's so be it, but he's not going to trade them all. Agree with you on Kenny. I don't expect him to deal anyone but I would like him to get something for Dotel. Dumping Linebrink is a longshot, but I'd definitely be in favor of it if we could.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 03:56 PM) No offense, but this is completely absurd. You expect KW to move his two most experienced relievers in the middle of the playoff chase? And to make it even more unlikely, Linebrink has a NTC. I honestly don't see him wanting to leave. Plus you want him to trade Richard and acquire another reliever? When is the last time a GM has broken up a great bullpen by making 6 roster moves in July?? Not going to happen. Who are you going to bring up from the minors? I know Carlos Torres has great stats, but I've never heard one report on him having above average or major league stuff. I don't see any other option that even looks remotely interesting. Why change something that is working? If we do make the playoffs, having a deep and strong bullpen could be a huge difference maker. Linebrink probably wouldn't go anywhere anyway. Who would take that contract? If someone would, I'd move him. I wouldn't care how absurd you or anyone else thought that move was. The fact is, in this economy, we can get a lot more out of $4-5M than Linebrink. Linebrink was market value when we signed him, but now it's a bad contract. I'm speaking as if we could deal him, which I'd try to do. Yes, I'd look at dealing Richard because I see him as a lefty reliever, and with Thornton and Poreda, we don't need 3 of them. Dotel gets us nothing beyond this year as it is. If the choice is Dotel for the rest of this year or no Dotel for the rest of this year and pieces for 2010 and beyond, then I choose to trade Dotel. The same reason I trade Dotel now is the same reason I don't trade for a short-term upgrade over Chris Getz right now. 6 roster moves? I'm talking about trading one player, trying to trade another, and then taking offers on a 3rd. Kenny brought in Pena for the future, and now our pen is packed with guys who will struggle to get work if the starters are going deep into games. If Richard loses his rotation spot and goes to the pen it becomes even more packed with guys who need work. And Poreda should stay where he is and up his workload, not go to the rotation. If we were able to unload Linebrink, then since we can take on salary, ideally I'd look for a veteran in the last year of his contract available in mostly a salary dump where we would give up negligible talent. I don't care if we'd get negligible talent from Linebrink as long as his contract was gone. Dotel would get us something nice, as would Richard, so I'm actually talking about adding value to the organization going forward even if it means weakening the pen as it stands. You talk about Carlos Torres' stuff being underwhelming, and by all accounts it is. And Poreda has a developing slider and a fastball, and that's not enough either. Richard has not been the answer. So, I don't know why trading Richard would make us so much worse off than we are now. I wouldn't trade him just to trade him, but I'd see what we could get for him. As for the 5th starter spot, maybe Colon or Freddy step up. Until then, and if we can't cheaply acquire a 5th starter, then I try Torres. If he doesn't work I try someone else. When we can, I'd skip the 5th spot.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 03:45 PM) There's a lot of concern Teahen will be traded, that Aviles will never be the same player he was last year and that Pena will NEVER hit. I remember the Royals making a desperate move for Rey Sanchez when they had the same problem almost a decade ago....and then, of course, Berroa never solidified that position after the great rookie year. Wasn't Cortes listed by many publications as a Top 45-60 prospect in all of the minors not so long ago? Cortes was a nice prospect and they dumped him for garbage. I see no reason whatsoever for this move. If Zduriencik tried to do this on a PS3 it wouldn't let him. BTW even if the M's are eating the whole contract it's still a bad deal. That's a sunk cost. If I were trading for Betancourt - and I wouldn't because I'd want more even out of a bench player - but if I were, I'd *expect* to have that contract eaten and I wouldn't give up anything better than Kroeger in the process. Royals fans should be preparing an effigy of their GM right now. There's no excuse for making a move that bad.

I wouldn't move Poreda. Poreda + Thornton from the left side Jenks as the closer Hopefully get good value out of Richard, Dotel, Linebrink Pena from the right side Call up a reliever Trade for a lesser veteran arm who doesn't cost much but can pitch in the 7th inning (Danys Baez maybe?) Carrasco stays in LR Yes our pen would be weaker than it is right now, but we're not getting anything for Dotel unless we offer arb, which we won't do because he'll accept. And now might be the best time to try and clear out Linebrink's contract. And Richard we don't have to deal, but I take offers because I'm happy with Thornton + Poreda as the lefties. They are our best options. Edit: Also I'd play with the 5th spot if I had to, but I wouldn't put Poreda in there. I think Poreda is on the verge of being another 7th-8th inning lefty for us, and I really really like that. As for prospects not coming up and performing, I'd take that chance. I'd test out Link or DRod as a 6th inning righty, then look to bring in a 7th inning righty via trade. Pena goes to the 8th. I'd view it as dumping Linebrink + getting value out of Dotel as opposed to getting nothing out of Dotel at the end of the year.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 03:33 PM) You worry about that later. Hermida can be Dye's replacement in 2010 in RF and you can see if Dye would sign as a DH. Your outfield would be set with Q/Pods/Hermida as Pods will probably get a one-year deal with the Sox to bridge the gap to Danks in 2011. The money saved from losing Dye or Thome can go to a FA like Figgins. Then your lineup looks like Pods/Figgins/Q/Dye/Konerko/Ramirez/AJ/Beckham/Hermida. That's a damn good lineup. Regardless of where you can play him right now, if you can buy low on a guy like Hermida, you do so. I'm starting to think we exercise Dye's option and make him the DH. I'd put Hermida in RF with D2 in CF if that's the case. And yes, the more I think about it, the more I'd want Hermida. I've always liked him. His numbers are down though, but of course if they weren't then we wouldn't have a shot at him anyway. But if he was in a Capps deal then he's definitely available in a Dotel deal. IMO: Dotel + Richard for Hermida + prospects

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 03:27 PM) I don't see the Marlins giving up Hermida or Ross for Dotel. We'd either have to subsidize the leftover $2-3 million on Dotel's deal or send another prospect or two along to sweeten the pot, like a John Shelby III and Omogrosso/Santeliz/Ely/Nunez/Harrell caliber of pitcher. They were going to give up Hermida in a deal for Capps, and Capps pretty much sucks. I'd much rather trade Hermida for Clayton Richard than Matt Capps, and supposedly the Pirates were the ones to nix that deal. If the sweetener was Ely, then I'd do it no doubt. I like Harrell (though I may be one of few at this point) and Santeliz and Omogrosso both have some pretty nice arms. Nunez would work though. Shelby wouldn't be a problem for me either. And it depends on the deal BTW because I'd give up any of those guys in the right deal. Ideally I'd want to hit their farm system though. Hermida I'd target if the Sox aren't thinking about signing a RF after the offseason if Dye is gone. Ross I'd target if the Sox want D2 on a plan for Opening Day 2011. If the Sox are thinking of picking up another RF while starting D2 in CF for 2010 then I'd look for arms out of their system.

I'm a Hermida fan too and wanted him over the offseason, but in a Jenks deal I'd want a lot more. For Dotel I think the deal would be pretty fair from the Marlins side because Hermida is a guy who will be getting too expensive for them rather quickly. And the Marlins have made some shockingly weak moves, like giving up Olsen and Willingham for half of their value last year. The problem is where Hermida would play if CQ comes back healthy. I guess Dye could DH when Thome sits with Hermida in RF, and then Pods could be kind of like the rotating OF. But unless Hermida could play CF in the Cell it would still be hard to get everyone AB's. Cody Ross is having a great year and he had a nice year last year too. Don't know a whole lot about him though, but he's a CF. The point is, if the Marlins are prepared to give up a lot for an arm then we should look to exploit that fact with Dotel.

QUOTE (High Mileage @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 02:52 PM) Three words: Tony Pena, Junior. He got arrested for being drunk in public and urinating. After a game. Did you guys ever give anything up for Pena though? Can't remember. I know he was a guy who was not going anywhere with the Braves and never went anywhere with the Royals either.

Supposedly the Marlins were willing to give up Hermida for Capps, and this writer thinks they should be willing to give up Cody Ross, Hermida, or Uggla for a respectable closer, which shows how much they need one. We don't need all these relievers, and since Dotel is a FA after the year and probably won't get arb from us which means we get zero draft picks, we should shop him to teams like the Marlins who really need an arm at the back of the pen. Also, I like Poreda and Thornton as lefties in the pen, so I'd shop Richard too. And it's time to shop Linebrink since we're at it. Maybe we can find a contender to give us a prospect plus take over the rest of his contract out of desperation. I'm not talking about becoming a seller either, just talking about getting some value out of some guys while we can.

QUOTE (High Mileage @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 02:45 PM) Cortes was made expendable due to an arrest last week in Arkansas... What did he do that was so bad he was no longer worth anything more than Yuniesky Betancourt?

Good GOD that is a s*** deal for Kansas City! They gave up an asset for someone who sucks and is owed too much money? Yeah Seattle is going to pay some, but how much does it cost to sign an Adam Everett or Cesar Izturis every year? Wow, if Kenny made that deal he'd be roasted here. Attaboy, Dayton Moore!

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 03:08 PM) I think you'll see Lashley in Strikeforce before the UFC. It just makes more sense for him. I'm not all that sure about Lashley and what his plans are. He says he wants to build himself up and then make a big move, but with the wrestling and athletic ability that guy has he could beat some top contenders right now. I think whoever offers the most money is where he'll go. You might be right about Strikeforce being the better fit for him too because he's not going to have to face the Lesnar/Carwin/Velasquez/Randy 4-headed wrestling monster in Strikeforce. I do definitely think Strikeforce would be wise to overpay for him if it came to it because Lashley would be a great draw when they start running shows on network TV in the fall. He could be their Kimbo I guess, but Lashley is 100X the prospect Kimbo ever was.

QUOTE (tommy @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 01:58 PM) I can't wait for this card. Sick. I'm all heart for Mir but I think Brock's gonna win. GSP all the way too. Did you guys hear of Arena Sports Bar and Grill in Elhmurst, has anyone been there? I'm gonna try to watch the even over there tomorrow, just not sure what time I should get there. Never been to the restaurant and have no idea how early those places start filling up, but just so you know the UFC is doing a deal now where if you buy the PPV off UFC.com you get all the prelims streamed after the fights. That might be a cool thing to do if you trust your internet connection, but me personally, I'd probably be freaked out about losing the stream mid-fight or something. My internet kind of sucks sometimes.

I like the way Poreda seems to be adjusting to his role in the pen. I see him as a reliever anyway so I'd prefer to keep him there. Poreda = good in the pen right now Richard = bad in the rotation right now If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Poreda is fine where he is, and is doing much better there than Richard was, so fix the area where the hole is without opening up another one somewhere else.

Carlos Torres. Then think about making a small trade. How much will Doug Davis cost? If it's a top prospect then hell no, because I wouldn't offer arb after the season despite the good year. Bedard and Washburn might be too expensive. Washburn isn't going to get salary arb because of his contract so he's not worth the price, and our top spects are worth more than draft picks so no to Bedard. Would the Rays still deal Jeff Niemann now, who is having a decent season? The Rays have lots of pitching behind him, even without Chef Boyardee aka Andy Sonnanstine on the team. Can Coop fix Scott Olsen, Ian Snell, or Chien-Ming Wang? Ian Kennedy's numbers in NY are horrid, but he still could be the next Slowey. Are the Yanks about ready to give up on him? There might be some options. If we're going to have a bad fifth starter, I'd like a bad fifth starter who might be able to become a good 3rd or 4th starter in the future. And I don't want to give up the moon for said pitcher.

That's exciting. I LOVE Cigano! It'll be great seeing him beat up on another name and get some more recognition. He's the best HW prospect in the UFC right now IMO, if you don't count Carwin as a prospect. That HW division just keeps getting more refreshing. Sucks they missed out on Roger Gracie (how awesome would it have been if he'd gotten a sub win at UFC 100?) but they still have a shot at Lashley, who needs to up his competition and fight someone who he can't just take down at will, or at least someone who is dangerous off his back if it does go to the ground.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 12:04 PM) Why? It was clearly a s*** deal from the time it was reported. It’s gotten progressively worse as the year goes on. Which one? The MacDougal deal gave us a guy who was a dominant reliever to help out our garbage bullpen during a season where we were favorites for the Series. The second Swisher deal dumped a guy who the Yankees couldn't even find a taker for once they signed Tex. Swisher might be the most overrated player that still gets discussed here. He was a s***ty CF and didn't have the bat to replace Dye or CQ in a corner, or Paulie at 1B, or Thome as a DH. He had no reason to be on this team and reportedly was stubborn and selfish to go along with it. Plus I've never seen a guy take so many called third strikes in so many crucial situations. At least swing the f***ing bat for Christ's sakes. His numbers are better this year, but I still don't want that guy on my team in CF and I have higher hopes at 1B/LF/RF/DH than Swisher's career line of .244/.356/.454. If you add above-average defense and some very good speed then it would be a different story, but Swisher = not the player Kenny thought he was getting. Dumping him was the right call.

QUOTE (JPN366 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 11:55 AM) Richar/Cunningham didn't work out. Or the Swisher deals, or the MacDougal deal. But, I still stand behind him on the MacDougal deal as well as the second Swisher deal. The first Swisher deal I didn't like. And BTW it doesn't necessarily matter if a prospect we trade pans out or not. What matters is whether or not we got appropriate value out of those prospects at the time they did have value. It's not a bad trade if you get a good player who helps you for a prospect who goes on to do some good things, but it is a bad trade if you get a guy who doesn't help you, regardless of whether the spects you gave up turn into anything.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 11:50 AM) You absolutely do not call up D2: the Mighty Danks right now. Especially to be a bench player. +1 Danks is a starting prospect and should see starter's time no matter what level he is at.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 10:23 AM) I disagree. Anderson is a better defender than Wise. How can anybody dispute that? Don't you think we need a righthanded bat, as bad as BA's is, for the parade of lefties that face us? Anderson has more value IMO even with his horrible hitting than the speed of Wise, who is also a bad hitter for the most part. As a utility outfiielder, Anderson wins and I hope KW sees that. Agree. We've got Anderson the rest of this year and maybe next year too, until he gets too expensive via arb. The worst part about salary arbitration is that it forces you to either overpay for or lose middle or specialist relievers or positional role-players who your organization has a need for.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 11:22 AM) Looking at the front page, there are three trades/moves being talked about, two of which have direct White Sox connections. What is the big need for a whole forum for the one topic that doesn't have the White Sox involved in it in an official capacity? So I, and others like myself, can start a ton of new threads without spamming the most important board on the site.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 07:35 PM) Minor league stats Allen 569 games .787 OPS as a 1st baseman Borchard 712 games .823 OPS mostly as a CF/RF Is there anything that suggests that Allen would be a better hitter than Josh Fields, who can be a low-cost first baseman if that is what we need? Jesus, could you come up with a worse comparison than that? Both started out out very raw, with Borchard being an elite prospect worth a ton of money and coming out of college, and Allen being completely off the radar out of high school and signing for a much, much smaller amount. Both players reached AAA at 23, with Allen so far struggling in 61 AB and Borchard putting up good power numbers but with a freakishly high K total in 438 AB. We'll see where Allen stands at the end of the year there. Along their journeys, Allen progressively got better and became a smarter hitter, cutting down on his K's and increasing his BB total while abandoning the swing-for-the-fences mentality and learning how to take what a pitcher gave him and go oppo or serve a little single out into short RCF. Borchard OTOH put up power numbers but did nothing beyond that. His career took a nose dive in 2003 at AAA as a 24-year-old and he still wasn't ready by the time he got some regular playing time in 2004. The book has not in any way closed on Allen despite his struggles early in Charlotte. I've seen him and from hearing an interview with the Barons guy he seemed to echo my first thoughts on Allen as well, which was that Allen was getting smarter as a hitter and learning how to approach the game with the type of attitude that leads to success against tougher competition. He can and will make his adjustments and is not greedy and stubborn at the plate. Those qualities to me are much more valuable than some guy who just does not learn and refuses to shorten up his swing with 2 strikes. BTW Allen's career MiLB numbers don't mean s***. You're taking them out of context entirely. Who cares if he had s***ty seasons while he learned? I don't give a s*** what his numbers early on look like as long as he has learned and improved along the way. I had and still have no problems dealing any of our prospects in the right deals because they haven't gone on to show they can produce at the MLB level yet. But I don't like Pena as much as some others do and I don't like this deal. I still feel we should have shopped Allen if he wasn't in our plans, and maybe we could have gotten something better. We have Link, DRod, Omogrosso, Santeliz, Jones, and Nunez all pretty close and if we wanted another reliever to replace Gobble we could have called one of them up first. Pena has better stuff than most of those guys, but I don't feel his presence makes us a much better team than we were before. IMO we traded a top prospect for a luxury who also happens to be a bit of a project who currently can't get out lefties. This isn't the Thornton deal redux because Borchard wasn't worth s*** at the time of that deal, he'd already been a miserable failure. Allen was worth a lot more.

QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 05:11 PM) Why yes, Don Cooper does have a medical degree and can "fix" BJ Ryan. Trade winds forum please? Yes, and yes. If they'll continue to refuse a trade winds sub-forum we should all band together and take it by force! And BTW I have no idea how we would do that. I guess it would involve saying "please" over and over like you have just done. So, please?

QUOTE (lord chas @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 10:31 AM) cardinals in mix? Which guy would Soxtalk rather have, Tyler Flowers or Brett Wallace? That's a tough one IMO, especially if Flowers can become a solid C. If Flowers can be a decent C I'd have to go with him. I bet the media doesn't even mention Flowers though but talks a ton about Wallace.

Reading that Goldstein interview makes me think we shouldn't go after just Halladay. Danks + Flowers + Poreda + more (probably Hudson and then a young pitcher or a top reliever) is not a price we should be paying - not because Halladay isn't worth it, but because it's far too risky. We need to build up depth in our farm. Should we keep all our top prospects through the 2010 draft, and let the Carter/Leesman/Upchurch/Shirek/Griffith/Infante/Rodriguez group advance a level, then after the 2010 draft we'll start having some pretty good prospects at every level. At that point, I think we can start trading some guys. We need to have a system where the guys we're trading can be at least somewhat replaced by the guys behind them, and right now, especially in terms of position players, we don't have much below AA. If we deplete the AA level then we're pretty screwed because we'll be counting on these guys in 2010/2011 and going forward. I'd look hard at Alex Rios though if taking him on gets us Halladay at a much better price. I can't believe Rios has been as bad as he's been this year. He has far too much talent and is far too young to be hitting like he is. Maybe the Sox can see something there? Because if Rios returns to form he's a productive CF on a reasonable or bargain contract that takes him right through his prime. Even though Rios had a down year last year, he still put up almost an .800 OPS (.798), and for us that would be in CF. The year before that he was a stud, (.852 OPS) and has the potential to be a .900+ guy. Taking on Rios could turn into another JD type of deal where we get a way undervalued player coming off a bad season, although the year JD was coming off with Oakland was his first full healthy season post-injury. If the Sox feel Rios can get it back together, then I offer Flowers + Poreda + 3 young arms for Halladay and Rios. Stick Rios in CF right now and - because he can play all 3 OF positions - use him to rotate around so that Pods can play regularly either in CF or LF. Then Dye can DH when Thome sits vs. lefties, Rios to RF, Pods in CF, CQ in LF. So Rios would basically replace BA and Fields this year. Then deal Fields and bring in another corner IF backup for days when Paulie needs a rest.