Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 11:26 AM) And if I were to highlight some guys not in the top 8 or so prospects with a shot of reaching those ranks (or higher), it would be: Charlie Shirek - Good sink and good velo Charlie Leesman - Plus FB for a lefty Tracye Thompson - A tools shed (very raw) Stephen UpChurch - Very nice package of pitches for a youngster (2nd season) John Gilmore - Tons of power potential and good tools but production doesn't match Brent Morel - I hated his pick so I hate on him, but the Randa comparisons might be legit Nathan Jones - Plus Plus Curve; Plus Velocity on FB; Improving control, not so repeatable delivery Ha, I'm glad you said that as noticed I was the one to rank Leesman and Jones the highest, also had Upchurch at 10 and the highest he was ranked was 9. Also really like Matt Heidenreich and Justin Jones so far, hope Jones signs. I should have definitely put Shirek higher, but Gilmore I think we've got to wait on. He's been very inconsistent and is still a butcher at 3B. Gilmore should repeat at Kanny next year so hopefully he starts hitting when he's there. He's still only 20 so it's okay for him to repeat a couple levels if he has to.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 11:45 AM) Only one AS selection for Dye in these past 5 years. Shame. Frank Thomas also never made an All-Star appearance after 1997.

QUOTE (SoxFanForever @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 08:59 AM) The Franklin comparison is kind of funny to me. Rich has legitimate knock out power against proven opponents and was pretty much a one man wrecking crew at 185 until Silva came along. Franklin also went 3 rounds with Henderson and did survived. Bisping pretty much has big pillows for punches. Henderson had absolutely no respect whatsoever for Bisping's punching power. Between rounds of their fight you could even hear him say to his corner man "he hits like a p**sy". Bisping has been fed cans the majority of his fights. This was the first time he faced a legit MW contender and you could tell he knew he was in trouble when he felt Hendo's power and wrestling strength. I don't really see Bisping beating someone like Hendo, Franklin, Silva or the other cream of the crop at 185. That's exactly what a gatekeper is. Someone who can beat the cans and lower level fighers but isn't good enough to get past the top flight competition. Now, he may prove me wrong in the future. However, if he goes into fights the way he did against Henderson and not listening to his corner, using no strategy and getting pushed around....he will be in trouble in a lot fights in the future. Also, the Kit Cope stuff cracks me up. the guy is such a weasel. I loved the comment about asking a janitor for his opinion over Cope. The janitor probably has better ground game too. I agree with most of this, but a few things: I made the poor man's Rich Franklin comparison a lot more because of style than fighting ability. Bisping was KOing people before he got into the UFC and was at that point a guy with 1-punch KO power. If you watch his Cage Rage fights he was laying people out. Bisping then, over time, cut to 185 and changed his style from loading up and going for KO's to more of a point fighter. The change in style plus the much lighter frame (is there another 185'er in the UFC who looks as anorexic as Bisping? Bisping looks like Swick does at 170) is the reason for his loss of KO power IMO. Even as an anorexic, he still has power when he plants his feet and loads up like vs. Jason Day. The problem with Bisping's new style is that it will never work the way he tried to use it against Hendo. He needs to settle down, relax, pay attention to his gameplan - like don't circle into Hendo's power, improve his footwork, and then pick his spots to load up. Against Hendo it didn't look like Bisping was going for a KO anyway. Those punches didn't hurt because he wasn't picking spots to plant and deliver hard shots. He was just trying to keep moving around and out-score Hendo with the judges. That's a fine strategy on the surface but it's not going to work when you're so busy trying to get out of the way that you end up throwing weak shots that don't hurt your opponent but *do* leave you wide open for a counter. I mean, if you're going to be basically slapping your opponent with fists while trying to move, and your opponent is standing there taking all your slaps no problem, and he's got his feet planted just looking to counter, then it's not going to be long before you're wide open, off balance, and eating a heavy shot that you have no ability to block. Bisping is going to have to find a happy medium between the style he used against Leben and the style he had when he first got into MMA. What I think happened to Bisping is that he just kind of freaked out and went on instinct vs. brains. The pressure got to him. For as much trash as US fans talk, the guy has had Zuffa's expansion into Europe basically riding on his shoulders since he came in. Then they gave him the TUF show, and afterwards MMA fans in the UK were expecting him to beat Hendo to show the viability of the sport in the UK. IMO, no fighter in that company has had more pressure on him his whole career than Bisping. Some people fold under that pressure, and Bisping is one of those guys. You didn't just see it against Hendo, you also saw it against Hamill and Sinosic. I think Bisping might kind of act the way he does as a way of dealing with that pressure. IMO that KO loss to Hendo can really be great for his career if he takes the right approach. All the pressure is off him now; he's just another MW in the UFC. I think if he allows himself to be humble he'll be able to fix enough holes in his game to be a real threat to a lot of guys in his division. It wouldn't hurt him to put on some more muscle though.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 14, 2009 -> 11:45 PM) I don't agree with this, but I'm not going to make fun of it either. I would love to hear some details on why you believe this if you are serious. It was a joke. But, I do think there's something going on. A friend and I had an up-close, extended UFO sighting when I was about 13 and there have been others I have known throughout my life that have seen those things, so I do believe the topic is a serious one. I don't know if it has anything to do with aliens though. It could be all kinds of odd phenomena we don't know much if anything about. The alien abduction stuff - at least it's kind of funny to me. There are people who say they've experienced this personally, and they have been shown to be telling at least what they believe to be the truth, so maybe something is there. Or maybe not. It makes for good stories though. And seriously, if aliens are literally teleporting into people's houses (or trailers) and leading them into UFO's where they are sexually abused more or less, and occasionally mutilated, then in the grand scheme of things that is probably an issue of just a tad more importance than Manny's suspension. And actually, I wish that thought would entire the public consciousness. For example, instead of asking ourselves "How can we complain about food prices when children in Africa are going hungry?" we should ask ourselves "How can we complain about ____ when women in Texas are having their fetuses removed and placed into jars by evil extraterrestrials who want to take over the planet and make us their slaves?"

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Jul 14, 2009 -> 11:45 PM) Agreed on Hendo being his toughest comp. but maybe cans were a bit harsh. Just low-tier guys then. Hell, I still think he lost the fight against Hamill. Will he get better? Sure. He's in a good enough camp. But until he starts beating guys who are in the top 15 at 185...he's still UFC hype to me. I haven't re-watched the fight, but when I watched the fight against Hamill I thought Hamill won too. As far as hype, I think most of the hype has come from the new UK fans he's helped bring in. They just see him winning fights and then think he can beat Anderson or something. But I dunno, it seems like the topic is too polarizing I guess. It seems like before the fight the UK fans thought he was a lot better than he was while the US fans thought he was basically mediocre at best. I tend to think he's in the middle there, and I'd like to see him take fights with guys like Cote, Belcher, McFedries, Kang, etc. when he comes back. I think that second tier is probably where he belongs, and even though they're better fighters, I'd put a guys like Hendo, Franklin, and Marquardt a lot closer to Bisping's level than Anderson's.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Jul 14, 2009 -> 10:43 PM) when you consider Richard/Poreda and 2 minor leaguers would've gotten Peavy, i don't think that's too much of a reach. Peavy,at the time, was every bit the big name Halladay is. Maybe even moreso because he is younger and signed longer. 2 hard-throwing young lefties already pitching at the MLB level carries alot of weight these days and Fields, no matter how much people dislike him, still has more value than a minor league mid-range prospect. A deal for Halladay is going to cost the Sox less than what the deal for Peavy did. At least it should. Peavy is a bigger health risk who is on a bad contract and plays for a team that is desperate to unload his salary. Halladay will cost a lot, but Peavy will be little in comparison. The Jays want Beckham as the centerpiece, and the Pads took Poreda. HUGE difference there.

The alien abduction problem is much more serious than the steriods in baseball problem. Especially in Texas.

QUOTE (SoxFanForever @ Jul 14, 2009 -> 10:59 PM) What's especially funny is how their careers diverged after that fight. Kenny became a top lightweight and Cope had 2 more fights, one of which he got wrecked by Rod McCullough. Yeah, I remember watching that fight thinking Cope was going to kill Kenny and then Kenny just steamrolled him. I had no idea Kit Cope would suck that bad, and he's never actually recovered. Every once in a while before big fights I go to Sherdog to catch the Pro's Picks thing they do, and I'm always amused to see Kit Cope on there breaking down fights. Couldn't they have asked the f***ing janitor? I mean honestly, whose MMA opinion would you trust less than Kit Cope's?

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Jul 12, 2009 -> 10:11 PM) Bisping is what we thought he was (to steal from Denny Green). He's a gatekeeper. His impressive wins have been over tomato cans. He'll be decent at 185, but I doubt he'll beat anyone thats in the top 10. I would disagree about Bisping beating cans. I wouldn't call Leben, Red Schafer, Matt Hamill, etc. cans. Hendo is by far the toughest competition he's ever fought, and Hendo is the first top-level MW he's ever fought, but I don't think he lost that fight as much because he can't hang with higher-ranked fighters, I think he lost that fight because he approached it the same way he'd approach fighting Elvis Sinosic again or something. I think his ceiling is basically a poor man's Rich Franklin, which is a style Hendo is vulnerable to, and he'll reach that ceiling as long as he stops coming into fights with ridiculously bad gameplans. He seemed waaay overconfident pre-fight, and then rushed, uncoordinated, and totally mentally lost during the fight. And BTW I know Hendo is awesome, and I'm not trying to say he isn't, or that he isn't a better fighter than Bisping. Hendo is a much better fighter and Bisping will never have the type of career Hendo has had. I also feel that Hendo has a much better style for MMA. And I like Hendo too and was happy to see him KTFO Bisping. I just think people are underrating Bisping, and I think eventually Bisping - as long as he becomes humble enough to listen to his trainers - will beat more names that people have heard of and prove himself as one of those 2nd-tier guys.

What's funny is that Kit Cope is a horrifically bad mixed martial artist. Kenny Florian made him look f***ing stupid. He had some show on Spike that I saw once where they were jumping on chairs trying to hurt themselves for some reason, basically a Jackass rip-off. There's his 15 minutes, some dumbass show on cable and getting embarrassed by Kenny Florian. Now he wants another 15 because hot girls are stupidly attracted to muscley dickwads. Good for him. Personally I don't care much for Gina Carano. Yes she's very hot, but you can see women just as hot or hotter pretty much anywhere. A couple girls at the bank I go to are hotter. It's only because she's a fighter that she gets so much attention, and actually, I kind of wish she and those like her would just go away so I don't have to get force-fed women's MMA, which to me is just as bad as women's basketball or women's book club or really anything that could at some point end up on the Ellen Degeneres show.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Jul 14, 2009 -> 10:05 PM) i think a deal of Richard, Poreda, Fields, and another prospect would get Halladay. That's 3 young guys who are already at MLB level and an upcoming propsect. That's rumored to be more than what they are looking for. Kenny does that deal with his pants off. JP Ricciardi: "I've been cornholed!"

Man, FutureSox just keeps getting better and better. It seems there's a pretty wide variance in rankings after the top few guys, but unless Kenny goes nuts trading prospects again, we should have a pretty clear top-10 or 15 by this time next year. I noticed I didn't even rank Morel. I guess I was still kind of mad at the Sox for taking him so high. But, I just looked at his numbers and realized that was a mistake. Over his minor league career, which almost adds up to one full season of play, Morel has hit: .291/.352/.455 with 24 2B, 5 3B, 17 HR, 76 RBI in 519 AB. What's really interesting is the 29-for-35 in SB attempts, plus the good walk rate and low K rate (47 BB, 70K). So my bad. I basically stopped paying attention to the guy, but should have ranked him much, much higher. Maybe the Joe Randa comparisons aren't off-base, although he would seem to be a more athletic version of Randa by the SB totals. It's pretty unusual for a natural 3B (not a Chone Figgins type) to steal 30+ bags in a season.

LOL, it looks like a Ninja Turtle in there. Congrats though. How young is too young when it comes to batboy duties with the Barons?

Wow. Makes sense because of the bat, but I really hope we're going to let this kid's skills develop behind the plate before we call him up to the Sox as a C. I'd bet almost anything that we don't.

QUOTE (beautox @ Jul 12, 2009 -> 07:03 PM) The sox need to add a bat for today and the future, and possibly another arm. I would like to see the sox go get Hermida if he is really available for a relief pitcher with closing experience. It allows us to take it easy with Carlos and doesn't leave us holding the bag if his foot isn't 100% and he needs to have surgery. Going into 2010 Id give give Pods a contract so he could bridge the gap to Danks. a future outfield of Hermida, Danks, Quentin would be wonderful. and as for an Arm, go get Snell he should be available for a song and could help this organization for a few years. Love that idea. Deal Dotel and maybe some smaller minor league pieces for Hermida. When CQ comes back Hermida can rotate around, basically replacing replacing a bench player on any given day when a starter needs a night off. Pick up Snell for basically nothing, like McCulloch and some other crap we don't want. Give 'em Wassermann too, see if Ehren can get a role as a righty specialist with the Pirates. I still am a Wassermann fan. Pirates shouldn't want much other than salary relief. Let Snell work on things in Triple A, like we did with Floyd, then call him up before the rosters expand. If Snell gets it together by then, we've possibly got a playoff-eligible piece for the stretch. Then go out and get a 5th starter for the meantime if we can do it without including really good prospects. Maybe unlikely, but I still think that at least nearing the deadline there will be SP out there who teams will give up for nothing in the hopes of just saving a mil or two. I can't believe the market has been this inactive with so few sellers. Something has GOT to change because we all know we're going to see payrolls in baseball drop next year (not necessarily across the board, but we're going to see a lot of teams claiming to be poor), so there have got to be teams thinking about just breaking even and/or setting up better for next year by saving some money right now. I have said before and still say that as a team capable of assuming salary, there should be teams fighting over the ability to dump salary on us. Of course now with what Kenny has said in the media there's the question of how much salary, if any, we can take on.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 12, 2009 -> 07:48 AM) He has a very straight fastball, with decent velocity behind it, other than that he fails bring much to the table. Yeah, he's not really an ideal closer and is having a s***ty year. His low BB rate is the reason for his success in the past and this year he's been missing the zone a lot. Even in his better years I would have a hard time trading a talent like Hermida for him, but I guess that's the value of a young reliever who is throwing strikes with a hard fastball. It just makes you wonder how much a guy like Adam Russell would be worth if he could ever locate that fastball and get his curve over. His numbers are a lot better in Charlotte this year though, and it's no surprise to see that K rate jump up with the BB rate getting cut down.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jul 12, 2009 -> 07:07 AM) The Marlins look like a potential trading partner, who need a closer type like Dotel. One guy who could be a fit for the sox [a LHB, who can play all 3 OF spots, who can play solid defense and has 5 tool potential] is Scott Cousins. He's only hitting .251/.314/.416 in AA. Yet he has hit since being drafted in the 3rd round in 2006. Low A-2007, .292/.358/.480; In High A, 2008, .304/.370/.513. He got in 91 Ab's in AA last year. He might fit in as a "buy low" type with his struggles in AA. He was the Marlins #14 prospect by Baseball America. Here's a write up on him by a Marlins blog. http://floridamarlinsminors.blogspot.com/2...tt-cousins.html I like this quote: “this guy has easy loft power . . . this is Chipper Jones, this is Daryl Strawberry kind of easy-swing loft power. You get some guys that just power balls out with a hack swing, but this guy is loose.” The sox need a few more power LHB's. Esp. ones that can play defense. Baseball America wrote this on him--"He's capable of playing all 3 OF positions with the range for CF and the arm strength and accuracy for RF" That sounds interesting. I'm sure we could get some nice pieces for him if we actually shopped his name around.

Love Brock Lesnar. Carwin and Fedor are the only guys I can think of who could possibly beat Lesnar right now, and that's scary since he still has so much to learn. The talk after the fight was pretty funny too. He's going to be a great bad guy. Don't think GSP is boring or becoming boring. His last few fights have all been basically carbon copies of each other, so I can see how one would think that though. You really have to be a pretty hardcore fan to understand why GSP is so awesome. If you had no idea who Thiago Alves, Jon Fitch, and BJ Penn are but you saw GSP's last three fights against those guys you'd probably think they all suck and have no skill, and GSP is just some guy who lays on people. GSP is just amazing the way he nullifies EVERY aspect of EVERY fighter's game. GSP doesn't get in trouble standing. He can strike with you, but if you land something pretty good, takedown time. Doesn't matter how offensive your guard is, GSP doesn't get in danger there either. Can't out-wrestle GSP. There's really no way to beat him IMO unless you can stop his takedowns and FORCE him to stand with you - but even then, if such a fighter existed at 170 who could stop GSP from taking him down, then that guy would STILL have to be Thiago-like to have a chance. Way back when I thought Kos might have been the guy to really test GSP, but GSP just took him down at will too. The guy is incredible. Huge props to Hendo. That KO made my heart rate jump to scary levels, like the feeling you get when something really bad is going to happen. Was rooting for Hendo but I seriously thought Bisping was potentially paralyzed or something. That KO was that f***ing sick. Bisping looked like a dead body in every way. Picked Bisping via very close decision and still think he's underrated (by the hardcores who say he sucks and is way overrated) and I still think he has the tools to beat Hendo and guys like him by out-pointing them in decisions, but good lord did his gameplan suck. Even stupid Rogan and Goldie were commenting on it (mad at those guys, will get to them later). Why the f*** do you circle INTO Dan Henderson's power? How... how does this even happen? I still don't understand how anyone can go into a fight with one of the best pure all-around fighters in MMA history with a gameplan that screams "no research, never even seen this guy fight before." That's ridiculous. Certainly not a reflection on Wolfslair and all those guys, I mean s***, Rampage is buddies with Hendo and trains there, and fought Hendo for 5 rounds. Clearly Bisping abandoned everything he was trained to do and instead fought like how Bear Grylls teaches survival on his show: stupidly, recklessly, instinctually, and in such a fashion as to dramatically heighten the chance of failure and/or death in the real world. But anyway, sweet KO and much love to Hendo! Agree with zenryan, had Akiyama 29-28, and f*** Rogan and Goldie. I HATE when they do that s***. No you guys, that wasn't a robbery, wasn't even close to a robbery, and you have both witnessed so many robberies that you should at least have a clue when a fight is CLOSE. f*** those guys, seriously. All the talk on the UG I see has been Brock being bad for the sport because of his comments, or Hendo being bad for the sport because of the last shot on Bisping, but what is really bad for the sport is to have your announcers stupidly rile up the fans for no f***ing reason and to make your own fighters and good judging look bad in the process. Damn those guys get on my nerves sometimes. Especially Goldie since he adds nothing to the broadcast. He seems like a nice guy and all, and he loves the sport, and he has some great signature calls, but even for a guy who is supposed to serve only as a PBP man and leave all analysis to the color man, he still comes off like a complete idiot far too regularly. He could fix this, but like his comments about Brock, "I don't think he cares." He's not supposed to take sides on close fights and then rip the judges. He's not supposed to tell the fans what they're watching because much of the time he doesn't even know what HE is watching. And he's not supposed to misuse terms like "irony" every single f***ing broadcast. For example, "You know it's ironic Joe that Fighter A is fighting Fighter B, and both guys have had losses to Fighter C, who is headling next month's card in __________ ." No Goldie, there is nothing ironic about common opponents. This s*** happens all the f***ing time, damn. Rogan is a lot better but he needs to reign it in sometimes. He's not supposed to get all upset over close decisions either. If its like 10-9 or better, one-sided, all the way through, and there's no doubt about it, then maybe you say something. If it's like the Matt Brown-Pete Sell fight where Rogan went nuts, that's fine too. But he's done this s*** before, and far too many times. And the worst part is that Goldie always agrees with everything Rogan says, so if Rogan's too stoned to watch the fight and then he decides later that the guy who is losing is actually winning by a considerable margin, you know Goldie is going to go right along with it. Damn, put KenFlo or Randy back in that role and bring in a PBP guy, at least for the biggest events. Let Goldie and Rogan just do TUF Finales and UFN's or something. The regular WEC PBP man, forget his name, but he's a lot better. Bring him over, and let Randy and Kenny alternate depending on who is in a training camp. Both guys are a ton better. And actually, throw Frank Trigg in there too, now that he's in the UFC. Every UFC PPV should be WEC PBP man + Randy/Florian/Trigg or something like that. That would be a lot better. Also, just watched the Coleman fight. Man, just awesome for him to have enough to beat Bonnar. And quality wins for Bones and Stun Gun too. Love Johnny Bones, that dude might be the best prospect in all of MMA IMO. He's definitely the best prospect I've seen. Saw his fight... 84" reach is I believe what he's listed as. Imagine a guy who is as tall as Forrest who can stay out of Forrest's range and still connect, and who is also athletic as f*** with a great greco base, naturally elusive, I mean just on and on. Could watch that dude fight every day. Too bad he never went on a TUF and built himself up more of a following because he's going to be huge.

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Jul 11, 2009 -> 01:54 PM) I think your Haren suggestion was not supported by most because Haren is not really being shopped. Beckham might change that. Bacon might not even be enough unless AZ needs to save cash. I think Halladay will be moved. KW will be in on it. KW might not give up what they want and the Sox may not get him, but I'd bet my favorite AJ jersey that KW will make some sort of aggressive creative offer. KW is probably thinking about it right now. Agree, and I also find it hard to believe that the Jays are going to get the type of package they are asking for without at least providing a negotiation window. Asking for elite minor league talent and/or Wells' inclusion in the deal shouldn't fly with anyone in this economy. Think about this: say the Sox offer Beckham + Flowers + Poreda + Viciedo/Danks. Imagine how many teams are going to be crying poor over the offseason. Even at the time of the trade, that is a much better package than the Marlins got for Miguel Cabrera. Could we get Hanley for that? Maybe... I don't know what the Jays will do, but not offering a negotiation window is stupid has hell. Unless Halladay has already told Ricciardi that he will not discuss anything long-term (which I wouldn't believe BTW since the economy figures to get worse before it gets better and he might be able to get more now than he would after hitting FA) then the Jays need to talk to EVERY non-AL East team about Halladay + extension. Then, take the best offer you can. If I were them I'd deal Halladay now before waiting for the offseason. Who knows what other names are going to hit the market this December? If a guy like Hanley does show up out there, even though the Marlins said they won't do it and even though the Marlins have a stadium coming, then who chases Halladay? Over the 2009-10 offseason I would NOT be shocked to see any if not all of the following players hit the market: Cliff Lee, Hanley Ramirez, Victor Martinez, Halladay if he stays, Prince Fielder, Brandon Webb, Roy Oswalt, Carlos Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Carlos Zambrano, Carl Crawford, etc. Then you've got Lackey and Holliday as FA. Hudson and OC are out there too, along with Figgins and others. The Yankees and Red Sox can only afford so many players, and there will be lots of bargains out there that other teams will want to take advantage of if only they can dump a contract or two. Imagine what a guy like Jim Thome or Johnny Damon is going to cost in this climate? You'll be able to get a high-quality veteran bat for pennies on the dollar. Players like Hideki Matsui will have to consider playing in Japan, taking a bench role, or retiring altogether. It's going to be tough. The rich will still get richer by the richest teams, but the gap between pay for league-average players and star players is going to continue to widen by large margins. For example, Bobby Abreu vs. Matt Holliday could easily be a $10M+ difference.

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Jul 11, 2009 -> 01:59 PM) Moving Dotel would make it much easier to afford Halladay and Rolen. Dotel is still a strike out machine and I'm sure the Sox could move him and get something useful in return. Truth. I just want to get value out of him now from a team desperate for relief. Losing him in FA for nothing isn't something I want to do when we could conceivably get a pretty big piece or two for him. And if it's a team like the Marlins who have trouble even adding the $3M or whatever that would be left on his deal, either eat a mil or two or take back an equal contract.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 11, 2009 -> 02:19 PM) Anybody notice Dotel has sucked on the road lately? Last night he got the loss. At KC, at Cleveland, and two games at Cincy, all outings he gave up runs, multi hits in all but one of the games. His overall road numbers aren't good with 11 walks and 17 hits in 16 innings with 17 strikouts and an 0-3 record. Must be nice when you can make 6 mill a year and be a set up man. If he was doing that as a closer, he'd be crucified in the media and by fans. Now he's still considered good. GMAFB. Dotel is considered good because he is good. Players go through rough stretches all the time, and I'd like you to name anyone else better than Dotel who we could acquire without giving up the farm. In fact, if you go through the rosters, you're going to find it is VERY difficult just to find set-up men who have been above-average for even 3 straight seasons, much less find set-up men who have compiled careers like Dotel. Most of the relievers who are better than Dotel have been closers, and there have been a lot of closers in Dotel's time that have been a hell of a lot worse. Also, consider that Pena's numbers have been down and he's basically been a righty specialist, yet he still cost the Sox Allen. Consider how long David Aardsma has been given opportunities. Mike f***ing MacDougal was given a closer's job in Washington. Matt Capps, who totally blows, was supposedly the centerpiece in a deal for Hermida. How long did Borowski close? What about the Tigers using Jones? Relievers in baseball are rarely better pitchers than Dotel, and even the halfway decent ones who aren't anywhere as good as Dotel can cost a ton.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 10:15 PM) I would be stunned if anybody would even want Dotel/Linebrink. Both overpaid and you can find somebody to fill that role much cheaper. Why would anybody trade for those guys?? I'd be in favor of trading Dotel. He's the definition of mediocrity. But who would want him? Maybe the Spankees who would consider his contract chump change? Or the Mets? LOL at nobody wanting Dotel and him being the "definition of mediocrity." Clearly you don't pay much attention to relievers in baseball. Check out his peripherals, then check out what other teams have in their bullpens, and then get back to the thread. BTW his salary would would be pro-rated obviously.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 04:50 PM) Like I said, I wasn’t trying to offend you. I just don’t think your idea is possible if we plan on contending. Here is my feedback. Now that we have Pena, I might let someone take Linebrink off our hand before the trading deadline. I would need to be certain that Pena can be an effective setup man in the AL this year. However, I doubt we find a buyer and if we do, he has to agree to go to that team. I don’t see it happening. I don’t like dealing Richard because I think he at worst has great value out of the bullpen later this season and hopefully as a starter by next. If we do make the playoffs, I’d love to have Thornton, Poreda and Richard coming from the left-side. They could cause a lot of problems for other teams late in games. You’re probably right that Dotel will get us nothing after this season. If we really want to compete this year, I still can’t see letting him go. He’s one of our best pure strikeout pitchers and there will certain situations that will call for him specifically. I also think KW will try to extend him to a minor discount in the off-season. If he doesn’t come to terms, he’ll let him walk for nothing. Here’s what I meant by six roster moves. We’ve already traded for Pena (1). You proposed trading Linebrink (2) and Dotel (3). By trading Richard (4a), I assumed you would be moving Poreda (4b) to the rotation. You want to trade for a cheaper, replacement reliever (5) as well as call up someone from our minor leagues (6). That’s an insane amount of activity, even if you keep Poreda in the pen. IMO, it seems extremely stupid when dealing with one of the best bullpens in baseball. I don’t disagree that we have a ton of guys that will need to get work. It’s now on Ozzie to use frequently and effectively. As for replacing Richard in the 5th sparter spot, I don’t think I ever want to see Colon pitch on this team again. I was at the game when he gave up like 5 or 6 home runs and I wanted to vomit just watching him. I haven’t heard any reports on Garcia so I won’t comment on him. I’m not saying Torres can’t make in the MLB either, I just have no reason to expect him to at this time. I wouldn’t be completely against giving him a chance, but I strongly feel Poreda deserves a shot first. I also agree that skipping the 5th starter spot as often as possible makes a lot of sense. I don't see anyone taking on Linebrink either, but I'd try for that. He'd still be a 7th-8th inning righty for us. If Pena has taught D'Backs fans anything it is that we can't be sure of anything when it comes to him. Kenny got him though, so Ozzie will use him. Hopefully he's good for us this year. I don't ever see Richard as more than a #5 in the AL. In general it seems pitchers that throw from his angle don't fare very well as starters. There are a few who have done exceptionally well, but opening up to righties - especially the third time through - is not something I like out of a lefty. It also seems like lots of those guys totally lose it when they get just a bit tired. Their release point is way off and they end up completely losing the zone. Clayton has done that a few times and I don't know how that's going to change. He's already a big, strong athlete who shouldn't get any bigger. Even if he becomes more of a contact pitcher and lasts deeper, I still don't like him vs. righties late in a game, especially when his fastball is in the 90-91 range 3rd time through. I see him as a very nice lefty in the pen and always have, but I like Thornton and Poreda a lot more, and I don't think we need 3 lefties. If we trade Dotel we might even have an outside shot at signing him again over the season. I'm a big fan of Dotel and believe he's one of our biggest weapons, but I'd sacrifice that for the future. I don't think it matters how many moves you make. We've made a ton of roster moves already. Pods, Owens, Wise, Castro, Corky, Lillibridge, Pena, MacDougal, Egbert, Whisler, Gobble, Poreda, Beckham, Betemit, Broadway, Colon, Contreras, etc. Lots of guys have come up, or have been sent down, or involved in trades, or just dumped. That's just what happens during a season. The amount of moves made in a year has no bearing on anything. You think it's stupid, fine. I think dumping Linebrink would be awesome if we could do it without taking on another bad contract. I also think getting value for Dotel would be awesome. And I don't in any way see Richard as more valuable in the pen than Thornton or Poreda, so I'd trade him in a deal that brought us something that would help us a lot more than a 3rd lefty in the pen. We have no 5th starter options. Were you around this board before the season when the Marquez and CR/AP joke was going on? That was because none are all that great as starters. What makes you think Poreda has enough to get out Major League hitters on a regular basis? From watching him I think he can be a dominant lefty set-up man right now, but I also think he's going to get crushed if he goes out there and works 5+ innings every fifth day. The odds are SOOO much better for him to be a successful reliever. Have you seen those hanging sliders he has been using? He can get away with that now as that pitch continues to develop if he's in the pen, but put him out there as a starter and those things are going to go very far. The last thing we need to do is put Aaron Poreda in the one position where he is least likely to succeed. Why would we ever want to do that? If he loses his confidence as a starter we can't just expect him to find it again out of the pen. That would be a horrible, horrible move. At least with Torres, if he gets lit up we don't risk setting back a guy who is a big part of our future.

QUOTE (JDsDirtySox @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 04:29 PM) Yeah... after looking at Cortes' numbers from this year... he has pretty much made himself a non-prospect. You're kidding right? Since when do teams completely give up on healthy, 22-year-old pitchers with scouting reports like this? His walk rate went way up, and maybe he's got a s***ty attitude to go with it, but for Betancourt? That's still horrible.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 04:24 PM) Daniel Cortes is repeating AA with mediocre numbers. It's hard to call him much of an asset. You are way off your rocker to be up in arms over this move. Cortes is a 22-year-old power arm with a successful minor league career. The only bad part about his numbers are his BB totals going up which hurts his K rate and WHIP. Yeah, I'll take that over a 27-year-old mediocre-at-best defensive SS with a career line of .279/.302/.393 who has been on a steady decline since 2007. If Betancourt didn't have the contract he's got he probably wouldn't have even been in the big leagues. He can't steal a base worth a s***, so no value there. The only thing he does is make a ton of weak contact. And this bit is entertaining: I heard he was bad, but wow. BTW I'm not upset about this deal because it makes the Sox better by making the Royals worse. I'm just shocked it went down. It really is horrible.