Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 30, 2013 -> 01:27 PM) I agree with the first statement, but not the second. A run saved is a run scored, and Bourjos is arguably the best in the bigs in CF. And we were atrocious defensively. He's a 3-4 win player in a full season -- which would make him better than all of our position players last year. Not all runs are created equal, so I disagree with your "a run saved is a run scored". Balance is a critical part of winning games and our offense was arguably the worst in baseball last year. Therefore, medium-sized investments in the offense can lead to large returns, resulting in more wins than simply the sum of the WAR we'd be adding. Now, I'm not arguing that improving the defense is pointless, I just think you can get a lot more bang for your buck (or talent) by adding to the offense, especially if we can improve the team's OBP. I don't believe Bourjos helps us there despite his career high .333 OBP last year. Also, you're hyping him up as a "3-4 win player in a full season" and yet after 3 major league seasons he's only had one 3+ WAR season which happens to be 3 years ago. Durability matters and if he can't stay healthy he'll never be a 3/4 WAR player and you'll be relying on replacement-level talents for two thirds of the year. BTW, what happened to his defensive numbers this past year? It appears they slipped quite a bit. Given that his value is so heavily tied to his defense is this a concern to you?

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Oct 29, 2013 -> 05:45 PM) So then I assume you are not a fan of Bourjos either, whose value is tied in to his defense, had only 1 outlier good year, and appears that he was injured the past couple seasons (I'm just guessing based on his lack of games played). At least Parra's really good year was the most recent one, when he was 26 years old, the age where he should be coming in to his full potential. Parra is an amazing defender with probably one of the best OF arms I have ever seen, draws walks at a decent clip, doesn't strike out a ton, and has above average speed. The dude had 43 doubles last season. If he could learn to steal bases more efficiently, he could be a 4-5 WAR player for the next few years. As I've been clammoring for a while, I'd love to see a trade of Quintana + Carlos Sanchez for Parra, 3B Davidson, and C Stryker Trahan. Nope, not a huge fan of Bourjos either. He'd be an interesting buy low guy perhaps, but I don't want him if he's going to be a key piece back in a Quintana or Santiago trade. He's just not a good fit for us offensively.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Oct 29, 2013 -> 01:21 PM) You know who I'd rather have over Peter Bourjos? Gerardo Parra. http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...sition=OF#value http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...sition=OF#value Not sure what the big draw is. His 2013 WAR looks like a clear outlier to me, driven by fluky defensive metrics. I've got to be honest, I'm not a fan of players whose value is tied that heavily to their defense.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 29, 2013 -> 03:24 AM) Paulie is too proud to hit .195 or something. Don't worry. If he after 2 months is hitting like that, believe me, he'll retire. I am almost sure he's going to try it again. I have vibes he feels like he can still play. I'd give him a one-year deal for 4 million with a team option for the second year. So two years, 8 mill, but only one year guaranteed. If he doesn't like that, he moves onto the Orioles or somewhere. BTW I'd also offer AJP the same deal. One year 4 mill. Just stop already.

http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/10/26/503...everson-through

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 26, 2013 -> 03:08 PM) Of course, the real lesson here is actually buyer beware and it's told by your trade. The Tex trade with the Braves...yes the Rangers got those 3 pieces...and none of them were the key piece in the deal. The key piece in the deal was Saltalamacchia, who the Rangers worked for several years, busted, was let go, and finally, more than half a decade later, became a decent piece for Boston this year. There's a lesson in that. The Rangers had to move him, took the best deal they got, and the key piece of that deal failed and helped set them back a couple years. Yet, the guys who were more throw-ins...those guys a few years down the road became valuable pieces, but they weren't the heralded guys the Rangers got back; Salty was. Throw-ins? Andrus & Harrison were the #2 and #3 prospects in the system coming into that season. And while Feliz didn't crack their top 10 prospect list just yet (only one professional season under his belt at the time), Baseball America still ranked his fastball the best in the Braves system and would make the Rangers top 10 list the following season (believe #5). Th point is while Salty may have been the best chip, the Rangers got four key pieces in that deal.

QUOTE (Real @ Oct 26, 2013 -> 05:44 AM) I'd hope that if the Sox were to even entertain dealing Chris, Stanton would be the first in their list of players they'd want in return Though you wouldn't get anything else I don't get this line of thinking. What does trading Sale straight-up for Stanton accomplish? Fill one hole by creating an even bigger one? Legitimate aces are the hardest players to find, especially ones under long-term team friendly contracts. And no offense, Stanton might be the most overrated player on this entire board. He's been a damn good player for a while now, but only has one truly "great" season under his belt. You don't move Sale in a 1-1 deal unless you're the clear winner. For Mike Trout? Of course, not that the Angels would ever make that deal. For Giancarlo Stanton? No way in hell.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Oct 25, 2013 -> 08:43 AM) Well when you are of the belief that players like Michael Early, Dan Black and Toby Thomas are legitimate prospects, then that will happen Lol...seriously though, oldsox's complete disregard for tools amazes me.

QUOTE (ron883 @ Oct 24, 2013 -> 04:06 PM) greg be trolling Does anyone else think "ron883" = "greg775"?

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Oct 24, 2013 -> 12:15 PM) I think the Sox can afford to wait another year before they trade any of their pitchers. Johnson and Rienzo could break out but we can't afford to deal Q if they don't. Also need 2014 to see if Danks comes back. If we trade Q it has to be a clear win. Otherwise see what teams like the Angels want because they have pieces that are available for pitching. Kendricks ,Conger and Bourjos can all help us. First off, not to be a dick, but it's Kendrick, no 's'. Second, why would you want him to be a big piece back for Quintana? He's already 30 years old, is only under contract for two more years at fairly large rates, and most importantly plays an easy position to fill and one where we actually have a decent amount of depth in the organization. He's a good player no doubt and the age doesn't really bother me as much as it would others, but I don't how he makes any sense as a long-term fit, especially at the expense of one of our best assets.

I think some people are undervaluing Lawrie here. Yes, he wasn't great last year, but he only turns 24 in January and has incredible tools. And even in 2012, which was a failure compared to his initial call-up, he was still able to put up a 2.5 WAR. I'm not saying you move Quintana for him straight-up, but if you can get a starting pitching prospect like Sanchez as well then you have to strongly consider the deal. Young 3B with elite potential are not easy to come by and this may be the type of gamble we need to take to fix this offense.

It would take a ton to get me to trade Quintana if I'm Rick Hahn. We're talking about a 25 year left-handed starter who will be under team control for 5 more years coming off a 3.7 WAR season. I'd want a major league position player of similar value plus a top pitching propsect. I doubt anyone bites on that, but the point is I'd want to be overwhelmed to move him.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 23, 2013 -> 12:58 PM) Personally I think you are grossly understating our pitching depth, and I think the right move, if available, could take advantage of that. It's a gamble but it's the kind of gamble I'd consider if I were in Hahns chair. Please explain where all this pitching depth is.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 23, 2013 -> 07:59 AM) Actually, if I had to guess, I'd bet Dunn slates in 5th in this lineup as currently constructed, with Garcia and Abreu ahead of him and probably Viciedo behind him. Maybe, although I personally see a 3-4-5 of Abreu-Dunn-Garcia. Either way, Dunn is likely going to be our only left-handed middle of the order bat next year.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 23, 2013 -> 06:34 AM) Yet you made a line up recently with Grady Sizemore batting clean up. Headley could be the left handed power bat with a high OBP you are looking for. He plays in a pitchers park and was hurt most of last year. Headley is really a perfect fit for us. 2012 was clearly a fluke, but he's still been a productive player every other year since 2010. Get him away from Petco and into the Cell and 20 HRs seems very attainable. He's also a switch-hitter and gets on-base at a nice clip, which addresses two of our largest offensive concerns. On top of that, he's a pretty good defensive player. People need to look at how weak the 3B position is right now and reevaluate Chase Headley. Now, I'm not suggesting we go out and trade the farm for him right now. I fully expect the asking price for him to be too high for our blood. However, if you could acquire him for a reasonable price AND lock him up long-term I'd be all for it. He'd be a huge upgrade over what we through out at 3B last year.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Oct 23, 2013 -> 06:02 AM) That is the question we should all be addressing. You can be pretty certain that is what Hahn is contemplating. I don't have the answer, but I'm pretty convinced that it's the right question. What do you think? Well like it or not, Dunn will likely be our cleanup hitter this year. I don't disagree that long-term we'll need a left-handed bat to balance the middle of the lineup, but I doubt we'll add that player this year. McCann would probably be the one exception and even he is a huge long-shot.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Oct 23, 2013 -> 05:53 AM) I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point. To clarify mine; Adam Dunn may still be on the team, but our offense is not going to be competitive with him putting up last year's numbers, in the clean up spot. As many of you have argued, he needs to bat further down in the order. The number one priority now should be to find a decent left handed, clean up hitter, to replace him. Any suggestions?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 22, 2013 -> 10:41 PM) You don't get extra points for having a prototypical lineup. An upgrade is an upgrade. However much better a new player is than the incumbent, that's how much better your team gets. I don't agree with this at all. A well constructed offense can produce more than the sum of the individual parts. For example, a guy like Adam Dunn is going to be a lot more valuable to the Sox if there are people on-base when he hits his home-runs. Does adding a high OBP leadoff guy improve Dunn's WAR? No, but it can make him more productive. I'm not accusing you of this, but WAR is never going to be the be-all-end-all. At the end of the day, baseball is still a team sport and WAR will never be able to account for everything. Not all upgrades in terms of WAR are necessarily equal.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 22, 2013 -> 02:00 PM) I wouldn't give up scraps for him. He's a highly paid, small upgrade on what we currently have at 3b and he's a free agent at the end of the year. That's the exact opposite of what the White Sox should target in trades if they give away anything of value. How is he a small upgrade? Even in a down year compared to 2012 he still posted a 3.6 WAR, which would make him a top 8 3B from what I can tell. You must have a lot higher hopes for a Gillaspinger platoon than I do. While I think they might be serviceable, Headley would be a huge improvement, even if 2012 proves to be a outlier.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Oct 22, 2013 -> 12:48 PM) Back to CF .Ellsbury I'd take in a heartbeat. Brett Gardner . I've seen defenders and haters on DeAza and maybe he'll bounce back but if it's possible to get value for him I'd say go for it. Jordan Danks could replace him as the 4th outfielder. I've seen Parra mentioned and Juan Ligares is a very good defender also . Carlos Gomez and Colby Ramus had breakout years .Peter Bourjos is 2 injury plagued years removed from his very good 2011 season and could be a buy low candidate.The outfield needs serious attention . You just can't have 2 bad fielders roaming around out there , 3 if you want to count Garcia. I honestly think the OF will see the biggest changes on the Sox this offseason. Be prepared to see major changes there. If your going to get bad hitting from your outfielders you better get good fielding. Sucking at both is a huge good bye waiting to happen. I disagree here. Garcia is a lock for one OF spot and I'm not sure why we wouldn't give Viciedo another opportunity out there given the lack of young talent we currently have in our organization. That leaves De Aza, and while I think Hahn may try to move him if he can get a strong return, he's definitely not just going to give him away. So IMO, they may look for an upgrade in CF but it will all depend on the market for De Aza.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 22, 2013 -> 02:55 PM) Yup, give me Ellsbury and McCann for the same price as Cano. Plug two holes and likely get better production for the same price. You aren't getting Ellsbury & McCann for the same price as Cano. Those guys are each going get anywhere between $16M to $22M a year.

QUOTE (daggins @ Oct 21, 2013 -> 06:25 PM) Since he is asking for 300 mil, and given the money being thrown around the last couple years, i'm guessing he gets 200 at least. I guess do you really think he'll get more than $25M per for 8 years? Only three contracts have exceeded the $200M threshold and those are A-Rod's last 2 contracts and Pujol's. If Cano was 3 or 4 years younger maybe he could get a 9 or 10 year deal but he's already 31 years old. Given the Dodgers are likely out and the Yankees have somewhat been scarred straight by the luxury tax, I think Cano will have to "settle" for less than 8 years.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 21, 2013 -> 05:15 PM) That the White Sox are going to give a $200ish million dollar contract to Cano? You can't be serious. That isn't anything like the White Sox. It will be interesting to see what he ends up getting. After the A-Rod & Pujols deals, I think teams are going to pass on these idiotic 10 year deals. And with the Dodgers out, there's one less team that would actually be willing do something stupid. IMO, he won't reach the $200M mark but who really knows.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 20, 2013 -> 05:55 PM) Hopefully we already did. At the least we just paid for one. Abreu is only making $11M per season, do you really consider Adam LaRoche a star? That's simply the going rate for a power-hitting 1B not the next Albert Pujols.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 20, 2013 -> 10:22 AM) They aren't going to spend big money on a starting pitcher project. They might bring in some reclaimations, but that will be about it. I still fully expect a minor league deal/option year type contract to get worked out with Gavin Floyd. See, I disagree with you here. I think if Hahn is seriously considering trading one of young SPs for a young bat, he'll definitely look at a guy like Johnson on a short-term deal. We have tons of cash right now and very little to spend it on that won't cost us a draft pick. Signing a project SP where the only downside is losing some money is exactly the type of low-risk, high-reward moves we should be considering. Plus I think our pitching depth is incredibly overrated. Don't get me wrong, I love our current 1-5 and think Rienzo is a great insurance policy as our #6 starter, but take out Quintana or Santiago and the complexion of the rotation suddenly changes and that depth is basically gone IMO. However, I think you can mitigate that by adding a guy like Johnson to the mix. Look at what happened to us this past year, you simply can't have enough pitching depth. Now, if Hahn wants to hold on to both Quintana & Santiago then it's a totally different story. But we shouldn't be afraid to spend at a position of strength if an opportunity presents itself there. Hahn will have to be creative to get this team competitive again and this may be the type of move to help get us there.