Pumpkin Escobar

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 30, 2009 -> 05:58 AM) On the optimistic side of that argument, that mediocre 3-4 - I assume you mean Floyd-Contreras - has proven that they can be solid and even very good this season alone, even at Contreras's age. Clayton Richard has been fantastic his past couple starts, and that could very easily continue (and I still think the worst case scenario for him is becoming an above average left handed reliever). The bullpen, though struggling right now, struggled around this time last year and started to figure it out around this time last year as well (though they were without Linebrink). The lineup is starting to get healthy, though they are pretty awful defensively; a good offensive 3Bman would do a hell of a lot for this lineup right now, especially if Alexei is sidelined for a while (Rolen has been mentioned for a while on here, and I think he'd be a pretty good player to insert into the 6 spot in the lineup while moving Beckham to 2B). And, beyond all of that, even if this current core is kept in tact, the Sox have introduced a number of younger pieces from the minors over the past 3 years, either via trade or drafting, that have come up and produced quite well for the big league club, and more help is on the way. Now is not the time to be selling; now would be the time to make minor moves in hope that you strike gold and it helps propel the team to a division winner. No I said Mediocre bullpen and was citing that we had only 3-4 Starting pitchers. And they both have proven to pitch well which is why I granted us 3. and I put the dash for 4 because of how well Jose has looked. I just don't trust Contreras because we seen stretches of brilliance before. And lets face it 3 weeks ago people wanted Richard gone and Poreda in or anything so he isn't reliable yet. But I didn't mean we have 3-4 mediocre pitchers as you took it. Now onto what you said. I'm going to take exactly one part that I liked best and show you where I disagree with you. You said "we've introduced a number of younger pieces who have produced well". I agree 100%. That is exactly why you move your aging veterans for more "sure thing prospects" or much better prospects instead of hoping you make minor tweaks and "strike gold" by dealing away the prospects you just got for lesser talent (see the Giants dealing for Sanchez as an example of what I mean - if we are going to make a splash - make a big one that helps for a while). Right now would be a great time to sell off Dye/Jenks/whoever. Lose them - gain players who will make us better for next year or the future and replace them with high-caliber free agents with their money. It doesn't help propel to a division winner always either. You make it sound like we havent done minor tweaks in the past that havent worked. We made minor tweaks one time when we were already the best team in baseball so please don't use 05 as an example. Otherwise - I think minor tweaks are just that - minor. Our team is built to win a weak division, not to win a world series. And that kind of building is going to get us what we have right now. Thats a dogfight with two teams who we can't beat and a schedule much tougher then theirs. You keep mentioning the what are essentially the "ifs". Richard is throwing well - yes. Prior to that people already packed his bags to be dealt. The bullpen was doign well and now theyre struggling - right now theyre struggling. You can't gaurentee they'll turn it around in time to keep us in it. Sure they may get better in September again but we need it now. There are just too many things that need to be turned around and have go our way. I think they can - I just don't want to be sitting here August 10th, 8 games back and saying man we should've sold, got stuff for our veterans to make a bigger run next year. Thats the fear - but if we are going to go for it then I am all in. Lets see what they can do.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 30, 2009 -> 08:38 AM) It's impossible to make up 3 games with ~60 to play. I can totally see why the season is over. They should shut down Floyd and Danks to preserve their arms for next year. I mean, no sense in risking injury when we have no chance of making anything out of the season. We should call up Flowers and Danks too. You know, give them a shot at some playing time. It won't matter if we lose since we have no chance anyways. If we won last night it would have been different. 2 games we could make up. but not 3. 3 is just too many. In fact, impossible. Season's over. I'm just glad I'm being told now so I can stop paying for the mlb.tv package. Yay for saving money! Thanks guys. The point isn't being 3 games out. It's being 3 games out while heading into a 4 game series against oe of the best teams in baseball (if not the best). Only to follow it up with one very good team in the Angels. Meanwhile the Tigers I believe draw Cleveland and Baltimore and I forget who Minnesota gets - the Angels and something I think. So for us being 3 out - even if we split the next series as someone suggested. The Tigers have a great chance of expanding their lead greatly. We have 7 more games against each Boston and NY. Neither one of the teams were chasing have that. In fact - I don't think the Twins even play the AL East powerhouses anymore. We have a chance to take care of business when we play each other sure. But as proven this year with our 4-8 record I think against Detroit and 5-7 against Minnesota I think. It's not a safe investment to say "We'll get them then". It'd be nice to sit here and say we can win. And in all honesty - we can. The thing is that we are going to "Standpat" at the deadline and the pessimist/logical person inside us realizes we could theorhectically be 7 games out by the weeks end. At which point - selling would've been smart. But no one wants to look at it that way. And the ones who do look at it that way get crucified for it because they want to put their team in a better spot for the future instead of finishing up getting bumped immediately in round 1 of the playoffs or not even making them. Then having nothing to show for it but another season of old over-paid veterans. I think that is why people think the seasons over. Lucky for us the teams we are chasing arent that good either.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 04:16 PM) Big-game forced their hand in that trade Ya I was going to say - Javy used that loophole for contracts signed before 2007 where if ur dealt - you can demand an extension or a trade. If you dont get it by like March 6th or something you can file for free agency. I think he is the only one ever to use it but they brought it up with Halladay.

QUOTE (Disco72 @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 09:40 PM) No offense Pumpkin, but I hate this argument. Maybe I'm getting old and cranky, but I remember when the Sox making the playoffs was a big deal. I also think we are pretty lucky as fans to have a consistently winning team right now. Back to the topic at hand - great deal by the Pirates in terms of potential talent. However, as others have said, they are constantly rebuilding. How many years have they done the same thing and never been competitive? I guess their best bet is to wait a couple years until the Cubs are crippled by their contracts and the Brewers can't afford their current core. Still, I agree with the "sucks to be a Pirates fan" sentiment. At some point, you just want to see your team win! None taken. Maybe I am a pessimist and I don't see the Sox ever being that team who "just gets in and watches what happens". I just hate the idea of being in what is not the strongest division in baseball, so even if we win the division and we are 1 of the 4 teams in the playoffs - I dont see us as any better then the 4th best. The Angels and whatever 2 teams from the AL East are 90% of the time better then us. Or so it would seem in a short series. I feel spoiled almost or in my defense - realistic. Odds are slim that your team wins the WS. We won one when we were pretty much clearly the best team in baseball. Minus some injuries and a slow 2nd half. But we got hot and we were the best team most of the season. We werent a team that snuck in and had an awful awful defense, mediocre bullpen, 3-4 SP and an offense that hasnt quite turned the corner to become league average yet. So I know you hate the arguement but how long are we going to keep this gruop together. They won - and since then they have missed the playoffs twice and got bumped immediately the other time after needing a playoff to get in. Its cool and whatever - but these guys are older and we need to reshape it. Thats how ive seen it for a couple years in the offseasons but it never comes... So I sit around all season and watch these guys compete and get excited and forget about the firesale - but this year I just cant because after seeing these guys be bums in 07 and barely scrape in in 08. It's time these things get dealt cuz KW clearly doesnt want to give them the missing piece/pieces they need. Its not that theyre bad - its just eventually you gotta make a choice and this guy just refuses to make the right one. A big trade would help us no doubt. Itd hurt the farm and whatevr else but itd help this team get over the 3 behind hump IMO. Which will be 5-6 games after the weekend. Thats another story though...but we dont do it. We dont sell and we end up screwed cuz we need to rely on our scouting - which isnt good and these guys who leave that we get picks for always suck. Its just time this happens since the Sox have proven they cant be detroit or minnesota and will prove the AL east to be better as well....Whats the point?" and ya ive been drinking - sorry for ranting.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 07:36 PM) The Expos/Nationals list would make you want to vomit. O I remember their list. We used to laugh about it when we preach about how the strike season was the year of the Sox, Franks "Career year" that HOF bashers like to say he is missing, and it was also the year of the Expos...Having guys like Randy, Pedro, Walker over the years and dealing he young Sizemore's, Cliff Lees...just awful management. Very vomit worthy.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 07:28 PM) Jason Bay Nate McLouth Aramis Ramirez Jack Wilson Freddy Sanchez Jason Kendall Nyjer Morgan Adam LaRoche Xavier Nady Sean Casey Mike Gonzalez Ty Wigginton Brian Giles Matt Stairs Reggie Sanders Kenny Lofton Jeff Suppan Gary Matthews Jr. Derek Bell Jason Schmidt Bronson Arroyo Tony Womack John Lieber Jose Guillen Joe Randa Esteban Loaiza Jay Bell Jeff King Charlie Hayes Denny Neagle Zane Smith Andy Van Slyke Tim Wakefield Doug Drabek John Smiley Danny Jackson Bobby Bonilla Barry Bonds Impressive list. Only the Pirates.

Saw Rosenthal mentioned Fields to Baltimore for Sherrill. He was speculating a bit but says we are one of the teams in on him.

QUOTE (League @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 07:13 PM) But now they actually have some promise with Alderson, Morton, McCutchen, Duke, Alvarez, Doumit, Milledge, etc. Unfortunately some of those guys will be moved as well. Duke and Doumit will be dumped next year when the team is in dead last again while awaiting the arrival of Alderson or Alvarez to fulfill his potential.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 07:08 PM) It must really suck to be a Pirates fan. Ya - this is the first deal though I can say they got something which has potential to finally be what theyve been looking for. It makes you wonder how they botched trading the Arams, Bays and McClouths of the world for any less.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 06:46 PM) I've said in many other threads, it's not about the players panning out for us, it's for KW to get more ammunition to go after guys this offseason (like Carl Crawford). That's a good point which I think is always overlooked. We are a big market team who can afford to replace guys via free agency. We are unlike the Pirates, Marlins, and even Rays of the world where we dump our good players for prospects and then have to wait for those guys. If we feel we are out of it or deem it necessary to sell guys. We should make moves like this. You get a young stud in the makign from all accounts I've heard, and at worst he is a major bullet in landing these Halladay/Sabathia/Holliday types that we always seem to come up short for. This is the first year in a while where we have had one of those elite guys and some guys very close to it. And everyone loves having the prospects and thinks they can be moved for stuff. Then in the offseason we can afford their replacements or other improvements to our club. While still having guys with more upside to contribute at a later date or use to acquire big name players when we need them. That kinda thing gives club some new confidence and excitement. It is something we have lacked at the deadline. Adding depth to the farm by trading vets, signing international FA's, having a clue how to scout and draft (which we didnt have for awhile) and not passing on "expensive" draft picks is how you end up with this kind of talent. I don't think 2 games out warrants a firesale but I do think it'd be nice to not go for it with crap additions and end up coming up short or being bumped in round 1 of the playoffs. I get the whole "it's nice to get in cuz anything can happen" but when ur bumped out then what? 2nd thing is I cant believe they got this kid for Sanchez. I wonder how many teams wish they knew he was even available.

QUOTE (Jimbo's Drinker @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 12:19 PM) nope, not coming here Odds are slim to none. I should've just said I can see it happening, where before, I had trouble seeing us landing a deal without putting in Beckham. Without Philly involved and with Boston not needing to put the world into a trade - I saw our package as being one of the remaining decent ones from a contender. I have little doubt that Kenny will consider or has already checked back in on what we proposed now that Ricciardi is seeing his pipe dream of prospects disappear. Ricciardi will probably sit with what they have until the offseason or next deadline. He'll get way less and he'll probably posture the whole time but it just isn't smart business for them and the dude needs to go.

If Lee is indeed going to the Phillies - we may see Doc Halladay in CHicago after all. I think our package isn't the best but I Boston will reduce it's offer because they'll have the upperhand now and I think JP really wants to avoid dealign in division. Just a thought - but whatever our first offer was may look a lot better when JP hears about how he blew it again and sees teams pulling out their bids.

QUOTE (Jimbo's Drinker @ Jul 29, 2009 -> 11:50 AM) doesnt pitt already have Doumit and Jaramillo? Thats what I was thinking. I don't quite understand how adding a 3rd MLB ready catcher fits their mold. I only assume someone else (Doumit?) is out the door. Doumit could be a nice buy-low candidate since he has been hurt all year. Still would cost a couple good prospects though.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 28, 2009 -> 11:58 PM) I wouldn't mind getting Wladamir Balentin. I don't think he's worth Fields though. I was thinking the same thing when I saw Balentin got let go. He essentially is Fields in terms of being a potentially big bat but I think you can get him for less then Fields.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 27, 2009 -> 03:39 PM) This organization has a lot more to gain from Richard being a successful major league starting pitcher then it does for Colon.

Saw the Reds are officially "sellers". I'm not sure the interest in Harang as he has not been the same pitcher as he once was. Someone on here I believe pointed out Baker through him on like 2 days rest and cited that as the plank he dove off. I'm curious at what it would cost to get a veteran arm like Cordero. He has a big contract so I can't really see us being players unless Jocketty picks up about half of whats owed next season and they take a hit on what they want in relationship to the prospects. He is owed about 28-30 million through 2011. With a 12 million option/1mil buyout in 2012. If Walt took about 10-15 mill of it, would it be worth dealing a Fields + something for him? Would they even take it? Personally - unless Jenks is on his way out then I don't know if its smart to be spending 6-10 mill a year on a setup man but if Jenks is bait potentially then I'd be all for it. Other guys available - Arroyo, Bailey needs a COS, Weathers, Rhodes, and I'd give a good portion of my left _______ for Yonder Alonso. I know he isn't available but I'm just stating that I'd like to get him especially with Votto beasting in his way.

QUOTE (Melissa1334 @ Jul 27, 2009 -> 02:29 PM) so u want to resign jd for another 3 years? i dont think we want to be like the cubs and have contracts for a lot of money for players in their late 30s. hes been great but i wouldnt do 3 years. just exercise the contract and see what happens I wouldn't mind it. He isn't going to get 12 million a year on the open market at his age in this economy. It's just not going to come remotely close to happening. So you spend a million on the buyout. I can see him getting between 5-9 mill a year. I wouldn't mind paying Dye 7.5 mil to come be our DH for 3 years regardless of age. He doesnt seem to be breaking down to the point where he couldn't DH and still hit .280 with 30 homers and knock in around 100. He said he'd like to stay here, so we'll see just how badly he wants to. But 12 million mutual option isn't happening.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Jul 27, 2009 -> 01:28 PM) Yeah im pretty sure Jermain Dye is going to be back. They have an option on him. Im not sure if he will be the RF or the DH. I guess if he is the RF then they could easily bring back Thome for DH at some sort of reduced price. Dye has been a beast this year, well except for the last week or so where he has started to pull off the ball a little and roll over. He looks a little pull happy right now and has been making a ton of outs on the ground to 3B and SS. But nonetheless hes still a producer. We have an option on him but I'd be shocked if we exercise it. I think the million dollar buyout and a 2-3 year extension at a much more affordable price is more likely.

I hope Halladay stays in Toronto. I hope they continue to finish 4th and I hope next year they move him for a similar package to Sabathia. One very good prospect, one good and another instead of the 4-5 theyre demanding now. Even then - I hope that moron Ricciardi can't find a deal next year and lets him walk - only to have him sign with a bad team so he ends up with all sandwich picks and drafts no top-flight talent.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 05:40 PM) Reality is...Quentin's back currently in the same boat he was when Arizona traded him; his value is depressed because of injury, so the other team you're trading with would expect to get him at a discount. Which means it's not the time you want to trade him, unless it's the other guy offering something stupid. Exactly. I think Beckham is as close to "untouchable" as we have. I always use this term and see it used but there is few true untouchables I feel like. The guys we have aren't untouchable - it's just they won't get the value in return which we have for them. So although I say there isn't a whole lot of point in dealing a Quentin, Danks, Beckham - I really mean that I doubt they'll be able to get their worth in trade and its pointless to deal them. In Quentins case - if he can land a Haren. I'd be torn but I'd probably cave. It's easier to find an OF then it is an Ace. And hemay very well be an MVP talent OF but you still take the Cy Young caliber ace.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 05:30 PM) Gulp...if the value is good, I'd consider trading Quentin. I hear that. I wouldn't be opposed to it if it brought back a very similar in age/$, less injury prone, mlb proven player just because of the risk associated with his inability to remain on the field. But we'll be hard pressed to find it.

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 05:08 PM) Thome will be back. Because of who he is, what's he's accomplished, and him being from the area - I can see them doing this. The thing is - is he worth bringing back at his age, price, and position. We have a chance to go out and improve our team or do we remain loyal and hope our kids improve enough to stomach Thome's potential declining production over the length of his next contract? I'd personally rather see him walk. Bring back Dye - who is more versatile (RF, 1st, DH), younger, probably less expensive and more productive. I'd rather take Thome's potential contract and offer it to a Figgins and a Lackey. Or Figgins + Rafael Soriano/Mike Gonzalez. Or if Crawford or Webb manage to not get their contracts picked up - by all means. I think it is going to be a tough decision for the Sox but the smarter move for the team is to use that money in a down economy to get 2 younger very good players to round out our holes.

Anything not named Quentin, Beckham, Danks, Alexi shouldn't be dealt...Well I guess Danks can be since there is a Jordan. Floyd I usually lump in that category because even though I think Haren is much better - people are right in the sense that it is a little counter-productive. If you can't get Haren without Floyd in the deal - then so be it. Put in Floyd and get Haren. Knowing Kennyhe can probably just deal them some prospects for Floyd next season when theyre our of it.

I'm very excited about the young talent we have out here and we need to take advantage of it. We are a large market team and having these younger inexpensive guys gives us a great opportunity to bring in some big time free agents in to fill the holes. I think there is a great chance we'll see this payroll up much higher then that 45 million - obviously with our arbitration players. I do think we'll bring back Dye at a cheaper cost also. I still see us having enough money and as awkward as it is saying this - having it in a down economy where we can probably get some pieces for cheaper. If you can trust rumors over the years then I'd suspect Figgins has a very good chance at being out here. And with how well he has played this year - I'd be 100% ok with that. I also would absolutely love to see Kenny spend that Contreras, Thome, Linebrink money on Lackey or someone if he can. MB, Lackey, Danks, Floyd + Poreda? wouldnt be a bad rotation. Like I said - we are in a great opportunity to be players in this division for a good 5-6 years if we handle this right. Hopefully with both having down seasons Quentin and Danks will be interested in those long-term deals they were offered last year.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 11:03 AM) Jenks has 22 saves: 5 of them he came in with a 1 run lead 5 of them he came in with a 2 run lead 11 of them he came in with a 3 run lead 1 of them he came in with the bases loaded and a 5 run lead. He's 5-9 in save opportunities with a 1 run lead, and 17-17 in all others. He's having a poor season. There are a lot of guys who would have at least 22 saves put into the same situations he been placed in this season. There are a lot of guys who would have more saves. They won't command the arb number Jenks will receive, ironically because in some way of all these opportunities at easy saves. He needs to fix himself fast. Unfortunately the same could be said about almost the entire bullpen right now. Ya - this situation is a tough one to judge. Me personally - I didn't thinkwe had a chance in 2007 and at the deadline I wanted us to move the veterans and in that time period I first began to want to deal Jenks. Last year - same story but when we made the playoffs. I wasn't sure what to do with him this year. But with yesterday it's becoming more and more of a desire of mine. I think you hit the nail on the head that he is having a poor season. I had this debate with someone on here recently and I just don't see the point in keeping him if it gets any worse from here. Bad season, dead-arm, whatever. His stuff isn't the same and regardless of him still being very good. He is not worth the price tag and the questions about his arm. I don't think we can move him right now or that it's a smart move to deal your closer without having a true closer stepping in but his value is still relatively high. I dont think he'll get the same haul that he would've years ago and thats why dealing him makes it a tough call because you find yourself asking "Is it worth it?" or you find yourself thinking about what you could've had for him 3 months ago even. So very tough call. All in all - like I said. You hit the nail on the head. He is having a bad season. He needs to turn it around much like everyone else in that pen.