The Ultimate Champion

Sounds like Jason Kubel IMO If Dayan and DeAza are on the table (especially in deals for prospects) then we have enough to get him, and he'd make sense in LF. Otherwise, if it's the "wanted for 5 years guy" I will guess Markakis. I looked at his contract & he's due $15M for 2013-14 with a $17M club option or $2M buyout. If the O's are thinking about moving him I bet the Sox are in on it.

Moose & Hosmer can definitely help tremendously if they hit better, but still, this deal (in theory) is about 2013 and beyond. If the Royals win 86 games and finish in 2nd place while their players make additional strides, then as long as they're still in the proper mindset, and as long as they are willing to spend enough to field a contender, then you're talking about a rock-solid young core team heading into the 2013-14 offseason looking for a way to add about 4-8 wins to the club. That would be a phenomenal improvement for that organization on multiple fronts. And that would be when you start looking at them in ST as a team that could possibly contend for a WS, not just a cheapy playoff spot in a bad division/due to the new expanded WC format. You're not going to erase 23 years of Royals baseball in one single offseason, and especially not in one big trade. But the Royals still have a very good farm system and they have a lot of very good young MLB pieces, so the window is going to be open for a long time as long as they're going to act like a professional baseball organization.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 10, 2012 -> 11:24 AM) At least some AL scouts see it my way too... Baseball America article...: "An AL Pro Scout: "I've gotta say—I think it's a good trade for both teams. And I really understand and like it for Kansas City. At some point, they have to try to win. They've done a great job adding young talent to their big league club but have just come up a bit short with pitchers. It's not an easy thing to do. They've acquired a present top-of-the-rotation veteran in Shields and a present fourth/fifth starter in Davis. These two guys will step right in and impact their rotation." "One more AL Pro Scout: "I think it's a really good trade from Kansas City's standpoint. You have two proven guys that aren't making a lot of money. Now they don't have to overpay for Anibal Sanchez. I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. (The Royals) have to win. Who cares if the Omaha Storm Chasers are good for the next couple of years? They have to win at the varsity level at some point, don't they? I think it's a great trade for the Royals. Could it come back to bite you? Yeah, but if they don't win on TV, it doesn't matter. It's a winnable division." That second scout is spot on IMO. But the key for them is the follow up. If Glass decides he's not going to be a Major League type of owner then it's all for naught. If this is one salvo into the dark night, then it's all for naught. If instead this is the big move that gets the attention of the players, fans, front office, etc. and everyone around baseball that says "We're playing for keeps now," then it's terrific. The thought process behind the move, and what this move should signal, for that franchise, is far greater than any of the prospects involved.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 10, 2012 -> 11:19 AM) On what planet is Wade Davis a #3 starter? Maybe that's his potential, but he continually got worse when starting and pitched out of the bullpen last year. Yeah, they'll have a better team, but I don't think it's enough to compete, and they did give up 4 prospects, 3 of whom were very good, for a starting pitcher who is about to get expensive and a bullpen or back of the rotation pitcher. I'm just saying that because I see him as that. I really like Wade Davis & with 2 years under his belt & in a much weaker division I think he's going to excel there. He's the type of player I would love for Hahn to try to acquire, i.e. good now, better in the future, cheap & with a lot of the MLB growing pains over and done with.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Dec 10, 2012 -> 10:49 AM) First off, everyone knew the Ozzie connection was going to make Freddy much simpler to extend. And yes we were all upset about losing Olivo and Reed but neither were in the same ballpark as what the Rays got. Olivo never put up huge numbers and while Jeremy was lighting the minors on fire he was still being compared to Mark Kotsay. And your line if thinking is just ridiculous, so as long as the Royals prove that they're trying to win this is a good deal despite the fact they're not going to be a playoff contender? That's just absurd. No, you guys are all being absurd. Who the f*** cares if Odorizzi & Myers are very good players 3 years from now when Billy Butler is hitting free agency? If Montgomery is ready in 2013 is he going tio be better than Shields? Probably not. Is the Rule-4 Draft going to end this June, and will there never be any more prospects out there to draft and sign? Is it going to be impossible in 2014 to trade a veteran player from a position of strength to acquire young players or prospects to strengthen an area of weakness? If the Royals do not make this deal, what do they do in 2013? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because the Royals *did* make this deal, for the first time in a very long time, they will have a chance. Their fans will care and baseball will be fun again for a lot of people. Timing is also a critical element. Another Sox example of this was KW dumping Carlos Lee for Pods & Vizcaino. Brian? Hinton IIRC was the "prospect" we got in return, Pods was coming off a down year (way down) and Viz was a MR. This was the straight dumping of a very good hitter for players who on paper couldn't even hold his jock & we didn't even get a prospect in return. But what Kenny did do is make that deal early enough to sign Jermaine Dye and to clear up money to add to the team elsewhere. If Kenny thought about value all day in that deal then sure, we'd have gotten a couple good prospects for Lee, but would we have Dye? Nope, because he would have already signed elsewhere. No WS either. On December 10th the Royals, who had gone into the offseason with nothing but #4 & #5 options, sit here with a full rotation. They have the rest of the offseason to further improve that while having already landed possibly the best SP on the trade market and a #3 starter in Davis at a great deal to go with it. They also picked up Guthrie & Santana for only money, and if they can land another cheaper starter with prospects/other players while offloading Hochevar's salary and Chen's money in other deals, then you're talking about a very deep and dangerous starting staff to go along with what they already have. They have the rest of Decemeber and all of January to work with the majority of their heavy lifting already done. And they've also made a move to change the culture and to sell some season tickets before Christmas. Good for KC.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2012 -> 10:45 AM) Prospects do matter, but there's a decent chance the prospects the Royals gave up don't turn into perrenial all stars. They have played the wait for the prospects game for a long time and it wasn't working out so I don't blame them for this move. I just don't see where you see how this is going to propel them to annual contenders. There is a lot of talent on the roster, but those guys haven't done it before, so in essence guys like Moustakis and Hosmer are nothing more than prospects, so you kind of contradict yourself thinking of them as contenders. This move signals the proper approach & the proper line of thinking for any major league organization in their spot, i.e. low payroll + lots of young, controllable players + deep farm system. Whether this is all Moore or not I am not sure. This move is a huge win for KC if they keep it going. Moose is a nice player already and represents a value, but I see what you mean on Hosmer. Hosmer's peripherals though in 2011 make me think he's worth the risk given the whole picture. Butler though, and Perez also, are total winners, and I think Moose is a real winner too. That pen has winners in it and I think that if you add enough good, veteran pieces to the mix then that team can and will definitely get on a role. After that, it's all about maintaining the farm system and managing the FA market for the proper fits and values so that the players on the MLB club can be interchangeable pieces when they need to be.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 10, 2012 -> 10:13 AM) They hosted the All-Star game last year and drew 1.79 million fans. The White Sox drew 1.96 million, and this was considered a down year, even sparking a 400+ post thread on how to increase attendance. They do not outdraw the White Sox. It's not even close. Oh ok then. They're stadium always looks like it has more. They will though as soon as next year.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 10, 2012 -> 10:10 AM) It's not a very deep rotation, so unless those guys are better offensively, this could still be a very weak team. I think they'll be better, I just think there's a lot they need help with still. Oh, and regards to the Garcia trade...that was a solid looking catching prospect, a really good hitting prospect, and a flyer in Morse. Morse turned out to be the best of all, and those other two have been very, very mediocre to bad throughout the duration of their career, but none of them stack up talent wise compared to the number of prospects KC gave up. Tampa Bay got a very, very good haul for a guy they weren't going to re-sign and a guy in Davis who simply has not been a good starter at the MLB level. You're either selling Olivo short or you weren't paying that much attention at the time. Olivo wasn't just "solid looking," he was an excellent combination of speed + power + defense from a young athletic catcher. He wasn't tearing it up at the MLB level, but he was ready to be there and learning. He had tons of value. Reed was a truly elite prospect at the time. Morse was a scouting type, but obviously one a lot of teams would have wanted to get. For a half season of Freddy Garcia that deal was considered a massive mistake by KW, yet it won him a WS. Freddy was extended and the package was a pittance compared to what happened because of the trade. This deal, given a year and maybe more of Shields plus Davis, is very comparable. As for this deal, again, the PROSPECTS DO NOT MATTER. Let me say it again THE PROSPECTS DONT MATTER The Kansas City Royals haven't had a 90+ win season since 1989. Yeah. 1989. They've had 3 "winning" seasons since then and won 83, 82, and 84 games. They've been absolute dogs*** for 23 years. Dogs***. They've blown it, time and time and again, whenever they've had a core to build around. They've finally something real that actually matters. People want to keep the prospects? Really? Guess what line of thinking got them into this mess? Kudos to KC. As a Sox fan I don't like it because it makes them a legitimate threat now and in the future, but as a baseball fan who also appreciates the sport, this is wonderful for KC and their fans. But again, Glass has to do his part. They're not there yet, but at least they're trying to get there.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 10, 2012 -> 09:58 AM) This was where I quit reading. Denial sucks man. Those guys are good. Take the blinders off. IF --- and it's a big IF -- this move means the Royals are in "win now" mode then yes, KC is very much a place to win. They have a better park than us & they outdraw us. They have better talent too. If their FO is going to start acting like winners instead of perennial losers then they are very much for real.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 9, 2012 -> 11:30 PM) Unless Moose and Hosmer both go on to have breakout years, I don't see a rotation of Shields, Guthrie, Santana, Mendoza, and Chen/Hochevar doing any real damage. Huh? What does the offensive output of Hosmer and Moustakas have to do starting pitching over there? Davis is obviously a starter, he's only in TB's pen due to their very uncharacteristic SP depth. Hosmer and Moose will help that staff out with their gloves & the bullpen will hold the leads they get. Santana also is a very interesting change of scenery candidate. He's very Floydish mentally but KC is much lower pressure and the stuff is definitely there. Plus he has a contract to play for. That team is going to be tough to beat, and still, it's December 10th. KC still has a bunch of tradeable prospects and some salary they could shed in Frenchy & Chen, plus Hochevar's salary could be gone.

This move is great for Royals fans, finally that organization got the message. The Rays will be lucky to get 2 good everyday players out of the 4 unproven prospects they received, while KC gets 2 good proven players now who will help them change the culture over there. Shields could be an extension candidate, but if not, this deal sends a message to him and other pitchers on the FA market next year that KC is a place you go if you want to win. Davis should be good for a while. This deal could also help them extend some of their own players. Dayton Moore has finally done something, so now it's up to Glass to keep his end of the bargain. If he wants to pay, there's no reason to believe that that team can't support a $100M payroll after all the renovations and so forth. Anyone b****ing about the prospects is missing the entire point. Remember how the KW supposedly killed the Sox trading Olivo, Reed, and Morse for Garcia? Yeah, what? That won him a WS the following season, and we didn't miss any of those guys. Winning at the MLB level is all that matters, I mean hell, even the Red Sox traded away Hanley Ramirez & Annibal Sanchez while taking on Mike Lowell and do you think they'd go back in time and not make a deal that put another ring on their hands? Hell no. Look at some of the "crazy" trade proposals that have been made on this very board over recent years, like Paulie/Crede for Brandon Wood as one example, and so many of them, in hindsight, would have ended up being major mistakes. The game is littered with can't miss types who miss; credit the Royals for getting 2 good pitchers from the one team in baseball that produces impact arms better than anyone else. No matter what the prospects TB received in return do, if this deal is the big move that pulls KC out of the perennial s***hole and puts them at or near the top of the AL Central for the next 5-6 years then it is a massive win for them. Kudos to KC. I didn't think they'd ever act like a winning organization and trade their damn prospects, but now they have. Moore made a ballsy move and that's what he needed to do. They'll sucked balls last year and, unlike the Rays, they still have a very high draft pick and will replace the value of 1 of those guys in June. And they can always add to a strong farm system while continuing to add talent as long as ownership is going to sack up and act like winning matters. I'll believe the Royals are real when I see them spend some real money (especially on the open market) but at least for now they're good enough to win as soon as 2013, and anyone who doesn't think so is in for a surprise. They've added 3 Major League starting pitchers and brought back Guthrie who they may have turned around. Santana has worlds of ability, Hochevar has talent also, Guthrie has looked good, Shields *is* good, and Davis is going to be a long-term anchor of their staff. You don't need a true #1 to win but you do need legitimate Major League arms with talent, and you need that in depth, and KC has that. They should still look to add another piece at the front of their rotation, but adding their bullpen, defense (espeically IF defense), and their offense to it gives them enough to win. They can still make some nice complementary moves too to get even better. It's still only the second week in December and you have to believe that FA bargains left out there in January are going to see KC as an attractive destination on a 1 year deal. The best thing this move does for KC is it shows Butler and the rest of their core that they're ready to win. That team is going to have a lot of confidence in Spring Training and they'll start the season out thinking they're going to be in it until the end. If they start out hot in April and keep it up into May, it will be very tough to cool down a young team that believes in itself and has that momentum behind it, because that team is going to play hard. KC is already at least as good as we are on paper if not better, CLE and Minny are non-factors, and Detroit still has a lot of work to do.

QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) It's always more important, and I never said it wasn't. I don't understand what you mean when you talk about surplus value leading to wins right now. Surplus value is the difference between what a player's talent would cost on the open market and what they are actually being paid. It can be used to determine what a player who isn't a free agent might be worth in a trade. I mentioned that this could be a factor in helping us get more for Floyd. But typically teams won't overpay much for a player of Floyd's talent level like they would for a perennial All-Star player. If a team is trying harder to be competitive, there are free agent options better than Floyd, and several others equal or close to his talent whom they could just offer contracts to instead of taking on a contract plus offering a prospect. This means we are basically in agreement. I aM in agreement with everything you have ever posted.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 11:25 AM) Some questions: What teams are gearing up to be the losers of the Greinke derby? What would these teams then have to offer us prospect-wise for Floyd? Perhaps it wouldn't turn out to be just Floyd going out....but just curious if there are any names I should know We probably wouldnt get anyone nationally recognized, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Off our own team, Nate Jones, Donnie Veal, Jose Quintana, Hector Santiago, etc. weren't considered anything worth mentioning, and even Dayan Viciedo was shat upon heartily by the national types with their fake hair and froszty smiles, so whatever. If we could trade Floyd and up with 1 reliever the quality of Jones/Veal and another player of the supposedlyt s***ty Quintana/Santiago/Viciedo type then Ricky The Wild Thing Hahn has seriuously done some mjor damage on the trade market & I for 1 will be pleeeeeeeeezed.

QUOTE (Special K @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 09:02 PM) Saw the Red Sox are willing to deal Jacoby Elsbury on Mlbtraderumors... Given that he is coming of an injury plagued season, and given the fact that he is a free agent in 2014 and they just signed Victorino, I could believe it. Any chance the Sox could pry him away for Gavin and a reliever? Would the Sox even want to do that? Thoughts? No way on Ellsbury. The talent is there but Borass is the agent & he's getting huge money. Sox aren't (or at least shouldn't be) in "all-in" mode again.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 09:14 PM) I'm starting to think that we do end up signing AJ to finish his career with us.... One could construe recent White Sox media communications to be positioning Flowers as a trade chip. Floyd + Flowers? I love and hate this time of year when it comes to baseball. IMO you go with Tyler if you really believe him to be a 4-6 year piece of the puzzle. If OTOH you see him as the type of player you probably don't want to end up paying through the arb process, and more like a 1-3 year piece, then you bring back AJ & deal Tyler.

IMO the Sox need to approach the inevitable Floyd deal as if it were instead their pick in the first round of the draft. Position be damned, get the best talent possible with hopefully a high ceiling and pretty decent floor. I'd much rather have a high ceiling position player in A- ball and a closer prospect just out of the rookie leagues then a couple s***ty MLB pieces. Re: Hannahan, I'd much rather they do that then spend on Youkilis. The 3B market is looking ridiculously bad & Youk is probably going to benefit from it big time. I hope it is not at our expense. I'd much rather have a player I can DFA in May if I need to & also a player I can still look to upgrade over later on in the offseason than be saddled with another bad deal. Also on MLBTR it says the A's aren't willing to get into a bidding war for Yunel Escobar. If I'm Hahn I'm trying to sell them on Alexei for nothing. If Sanchez is indeed the defender the Sox say he is (really? or bulls***?) then Alexei's contract is the one he needs to be replacing, not Beckham's cheap deal & he certainly doesn't need to be at 3B.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) Good line ... but give the man a chance. I'd rather he make the right move than just to make a move. Agree. I'm just an antsy Nancy.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 02:24 PM) Oh boy...not this again. Please, HahnSolo,make a move... We went from Kenny to Can't He.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) Bull! This game has been a huge part of my life enough trust my judgement on what I see, the unmeaserable chemistry factor and watching the game itself being played. I have expressed many opinions over the years on soxtalk and I stand by my record of my words over your stats. I grant that your advanced stats give you a little, very little, insight to player evaluation. For you to come on here and say I have no idea of what I'm talking about because I don't happen to agree with your microscopic standard of player management is ridiculously short-sighted, at best. And, I'm being very restrained in my response to your arrogance.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Dec 3, 2012 -> 12:02 PM) 3 years, $39M is a good deal for Dunn if he was a FA right now My mistake, you said 3 years 39 million is a good deal for Dunn. I did, and in this market I think that's fair coming off another 40+ HR season and given his entire career of performance. I wouldn't personally give that out, but I wouldn't want to give out any of these other deals I keep seeing signed either for the most part. Haren I think is inflated but very fair. Upton's is crazy, but better than Napoli because he does more things. I don't like the way OPS is used in general. Compare the OPS of Paul Konerko (.857 career) to Napoli's (.863 career) and Napoli is better. However, Paul Konerko is a far more dangerous, far more complete and astute hitter than Napoli will ever be. Paulie has been in the league for 16 seasons and will go into his 17th next year, and could very possibly play 20 if he wants to stick around a bit as a platoon type/backup/PH. Napoli OTOH I think would be lucky to get another 4-5 in and he has 7. If you look at needing to upgrade an offense and you say "I'll take Napoli over Paulie because the OPS is higher" then you are very stupidly ignoring all the things Paulie can do as a hitter that Napoli can't, and you're probably hurting yourself. If you want a RH #5/6 type hitter who will clean up behind the bigger boys then Napoli is your kind of guy, but certainly not at $13M per IMO.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 4, 2012 -> 01:04 PM) Computers and cell phones are bad ideas too. I don't know what you have against advanced stats that can tell you even more about performance. Granted, no stat is unflawed, but you have written paying Napoli $13 million a year is stupid, and paying Adam Dunn $15 million a year is wise. Then you mention home runs. Over the past 3 years, Napoli homers more per plate appearance than Adam Dunn. Gets more hits, reaches base more often. I would think that is more significant than what happened 7 or 8 years ago. Ugh. I've responded to all of you points in other posts, I just think that you aren't reading them. That's fine, few here read my posts anyway. For the record, I hate iPads and all that s*** anyway. I think they're excessive and too many people use them to be lazy. When they're too busy looking at their phones and junk to watch for cars while crossing the street/parking lot, I feel a deep inner desire to run them over on purpose. I'd love to own a snowplow, and if I did I'd weld spikes onto it, and I'd pile up bodies in the parking lots of every major shopping area. People wouldn't identify Wal-Marts by the big lighted signs out front, they'd identify the stores by the giant mass of rotting flesh mounded in the back of the parking lot. But I don't know why I'm going on about this because this has nothing to do with baseball. I was just thinking yesterday that it's like I'm the one coaching first base here, and I'm out there shagging flyballs to Rajai Davis, and he keeps making these one-handed spin catches all the time even though after every single one I have to hear Farmio in my ear screaming "God damn it Rajai that's not how we play it!" Do we still play defense in the bottom of the 3rd inning while on the road? Do we still have to wear pants in the outfield? Yes, Rajai. Yes we do. Grab your glove and take the field. The game hasn't changed *that* much in the last 100+ years to the point where OPS on paper is so valuable that it negates proper context. Put aside this argument for a second and just consider that one last point of mine about the HOF. Dunn is going to be on that list, and if he doesn't get in, he'll stick around because of the sheer number of HRs he has hit during his career. Napoli OTOH doesn't sniff it. Maybe you and others think the game hasn't caught up to the times/stats, but I OTOH disagree, and I feel that the understanding of the game has generally gone down, and people probably know less about it now than before, and weights on stats like HRs are actually important for the right reasons. Granted, ERA is way overrated, as is fielding %, but batting average is NOT since contact (especially hard contact) is a specific skill, and so on. Graphs & computers have done a great job as far as evaluating movement on pitches and movement on defense/defensive sets in relation to batted balls, but offensively, IMO the stats are making fans dumber. JMO. Tell ya what: you say toe-mah-toe all you want & I'm gonna keep saying toe-may-toe & that will be that. But if you can find where I said that paying $15M per to Adam Dunn is wise I will not post on this forum for at least 6 months. I promise.

The advanced stats are a wonderful tool for compiling lists for fantasy drafts and other internet nonsense that doesn't ever matter in real life. In reality, fit is everything. If you're too right-handed, you need lefties. If you're too slow, you need some speed. If you're too one-dimensional in any manner on offense, you need to make the adjustments necessary to score in as many different ways as possible. The Detroit Tigers don't need more win shares up the middle, they need defense up the middle. The Minnesota Twins don't need to figure out the average worth of their home runs, they need to get some starting pitching. The Kansas City Royals might as well can every stat happy member of their FO if their s***ty owner isn't going to spend any money. Etc. Fit is absolutely everything & right now the Sox need a 3B that they can fit into their budget. They're pretty average IMO all across the board, better on the pitching and defense side of things, but the Sox overall don't appear to have an elite starting staff, an elite bullpen, an elite defense, an elite offense, nor are they exceptionally balanced, young, or cheap. Because of this there are several possibilities to consider. If they sign Youkilis then they need to make salary disappear from another area which weakens the team in another area most likely, and also, they still need to acquire a long-term fit (prospect most likely) since Youk isn't going to be more than a 2-3 year option. Youkilis provides some offense, but he's still not going to provide a huge lift unless he has a major rebound which you can't bet on, so if you sign him you still need to add a bat. Get Reynolds and it's the same thing, money and a short term solution, but the defense takes a major hit. The offense upgrades and the cost per year is much lower, and if you plan on Reynolds as a 1B/3B, you're still right-handed heavy, but maybe you can move Paulie or even possibly Dunn in the right deal, and save more cash. Maybe you bring in a little lefty in a platoon role and play him some at 3B and some in the OF or 2B as a backup. There are endless possibilities and I'm not advocating signing either Reynolds or Youkilis, I am just pointing out that *nowhere* in the process do you go all-out all the Bill James and start posting graphs all over the place like in that movie A Beautiful Mind where that dude puts s*** all over his wall because he's trying to catch up to the Ruskies or whatever. You just look at what you have in terms of a lineup, what your defense is, what your payroll situation is, what trade chips you have, etc. and you try to engineer the best possible team in as few moves as possible, because 8 trades and 5 signings in an offseason is really unlikely, but 3 trades and 2 signings could happen. You try to be realistic and you try to keep in line with the major goal of your offseason, which (should be) to either go younger and build a longer term window or contention, or win right now. Also, the home run is the best offensive stat ever. That's the best thing you can do as a hitter and it's value can only ever be equaled, i.e. a HBP with the bases juiced in the bottom of the ninth is just as good as a HR, but it's not better. That said, the HR isn't everything and you'll get into trouble building an offense that can't do much outside of that, but if you are talking about power hitters (and SLG is supposed to measure power/driving the ball) then there is NOTHING better than a HR. Adam Dunn, worst case scenario, collects votes and remains on the HOF ballot when his career is over. Napoli would be very lucky to hang on there long enough to reach year 2. There's no comparison. Both players have exactly 2 skills and that is it. Dunn's use of those 2 skills, both in 2012 and over his career dwarfs Napoli's use of his two skills. The only thing Napoli ever had on Dunn was the ability to call himself a catcher and compare himself to other catchers. He can't do that anymore because he's not good enough to stick there.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2012 -> 01:16 PM) Again, the past 3 years, Napoli has overall been significantly better. He even homers more often per plate appearance. I personally wouldn't want to give Napoli $13 million for 3 years, but IMO, it's better than paying Adam Dunn $15 million. Napoli has been protected for much of his career, given special matchups, platoon roles, etc. and that has affected his overall numbers. Dunn however is just thrown out there. Robin routinely plays him against tough lefties & Ozzie left him in almost all of 2011 and just let him fail. If we both agree that the Napoli deal is bad then that's probably the only thing we'll agree on. IMO there's a real good reason Soscia (sp?) wanted him gone & a real good reason why his salary was included in the Vernon Wells deal & also a real good reason why Texas picked him up from the Jays for basically a song. He's has 2 total skills as a player & unless he's going to bang the ball off the wall all the time in Fenway, his numbers aren't going to be better than Dunn's and his deal is going to blow up big fart bubbles in Boston Harbor like an old shoe stuffed with big old nasty bubbling fart bubbles. I'm done with this damn thread now. Ugh.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2012 -> 01:08 PM) You're apparently for paying players in 2013,2014 and 2015 based on what they did in 2005 or 2006. Why don't you look at their numbers the past couple of years, cover up the Adam Dunn poster on your wall, and tell me who is the more valuable player. Yeah right, nice catch there Rajai Davis. Dunn and Napoli both played in the Major Leagues during the following seasons: 2006 - Dunn was better 2007 - Dunn was better 2008 - Dunn was better 2009 - Dunn was better 2010 - Dunn was better 2011 - Napoli was better 2012 - Dunn was better

QUOTE (Big Daddy Kool @ Dec 3, 2012 -> 12:40 PM) His Fenway #'s are nuts however That would make some sense then. If they feel he's going to be the player he was 1 year in Texas for 3 in Fenway then he's worth the money as a 1B.