The Ultimate Champion

I would seriously consider doing Dunn for Vargas, Olivo, and Figgins if Seattle took on all of Dunn's remaining deal + paid all of Figgins contract + threw in $1M cash on Olivo. That would be a nice deal for both teams IMO. Then I would look to package Vargas in another deal and spend Dunn's money on a more complete hitter or else give it to Jake to come back. Figgins and Olivo give us a PR/UT type and a backup to either Flowers or AJ (if AJ returns then you trade Flowers so he can start somewhere).

BTW I give Flowers an A for looking like a Major League player this year. He had a lot of work to do & he did it. Now he deserves a shot at regular PT, if not here then elsewhere.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Oct 6, 2012 -> 04:41 PM) I agree with TaylorSt. grade yourself as a poster??? I have this weird feeling people dont like me on here for some reason. You're not alone. Everyone here is completely miserable.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 6, 2012 -> 02:59 PM) Quintana - B, barely avoids B- The guy jumps 2 levels from A+ ball and almost helps us win a division and yet he barely avoids a B-. Excuse me while I read this headline Quintana Risks Own Life, Saves Elderly Nun From Speeding Train Sox Lefty Hoists Woman Over Shoulder At Last Instant; SoxTalk Poster greg775 Condemns Pitcher For Not Also Stopping Train

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 6, 2012 -> 05:42 PM) If you define "stuff" as someone who consistently pitches at 95+, then you're only going to be talking guys like Scherzer and Verlander. When they're on, Gavin Floyd has the best overall stuff on the staff (and clearly, many would argue a healthy and rested Chris Sale still has the better overall arsenal), but his fastball is about the same velocity as Santiago's. The main difference with Santiago and Quintana is the same thing we've seen with Danks recently, or even Matt Thornton...they have a hard time fooling hitters with the stuff they do have, they don't get nearly as many swings and misses. Lacking a true put-away pitch, Santiago's essentially another Mark Buehrle with a tick faster FB but obviously you need to have pinpoint control to get away with that consistently. Quintana did have an extended string of great pitching, until he faded down the stretch. So is he Humber or Buehrle? Probably something in between. But yeah, one thing that was impressive about Quintana in the first half of his starts was keeping his pitch count so low and not extending the game into the bullpen in the 5th and 6th innings. I agree with this post. Stuff to me isn't necessarily velocity on the fastball; to me it's hard, late break on a breaking ball, fade & sink on a change, speed differential/movement(especially late) on the fastball, etc. The fastball is the most important pitch but the secondary offering(s) dictate to a large degree the effectiveness of the fastball. Your Thornton point is an excellent example of this, i.e. he doesn't really have the "stuff" he just has a hard fastball that hitters can sit on when he's not locating and popping the glove with it. Neither Santiago nor Quintana are "stuff" pitchers. Both are deceptive lefties that need to get ahead with the fastball to be effective, and when the bench has them inexplicably trying to pitch backwards it just doesn't work. The idea that Santiago has better "stuff" IMO is just all screwball hype and the fact that his fastball speed is higher. But if you watch Santiago theres no sharp break on anything he seems to throw, the slider doesn't have much bite, the fastball is pretty straight, and the screwball IMO would be better as a straight change. I'm not standing in the batters box so I obviously don't know, but to me it seems like the speed of the screwball is what is getting the hitters, not the movement, and the fastball is the effective pitch (aided by deception) and actually, I think the movement on the change/screwball is helping the hitters identify it earlier which allows them to hit it easily when he leaves it up. Santiago doesn't really have more than 1 good pitch IMO. Q OTOH I see as having far better command, but he just lost strength as the year went on and left a lot more pitches over the plate. IMO Quintana's change is better than Santiago's screwball, his slider is better, his 4-seam and cutter command is better, etc. and all together it makes him harder to square up the ball on, therefore he has better stuff. But the FB is the best pitch for both pitchers, and neither have any kind of knockout secondary pitch, so both are deception-based lefties who need to overachieve basically. To that end, Q is farther along, closer to a finished product, has more tools in the shed, etc. and if you have to keep one I think it's very easy to pick. What I like about both pitchers is the mentality they have. Santiago has a nice floor also, being that (IMO) if he can't be a #3 type in the end, you can think of him as a #5, and if he can't be that then he can be a lefty setup man, and worst case scenario assuming he stays healthy he is at least an effective lefty specialist. So if you're a team looking to acquire a package of young players for your proven vet, Santiago is the type of guy you want, ala pretty good ceiling, very nice floor, MLB ready right now, definitely going to contribute, overachiever type mentally, hard worker, etc. I do think Santiago is definitely traded this offseason. You can't run out 4 lefties, and Danks and Sale are sticking. Q is closer to being ready I think, and with Santiago you're selling his potential short if you keep him and move him to the pen. IMO Q slots as the ideal #5 in a 3-lefty rotation because with Sale as your #1 you can go from a deceptive pitch to contact lefty on one day to a legitimate wipe-out machine the next. It's hard to justify throwing 2 similar types of lefties after each other to the same hitters on consecutive days, and it's just as hard to justify going from a "stuff" guy first to a Buehrle type second, but Quintana to Sale IMO would work very well. Add Santiago in the mix and one of the lefties is going to get lit up a bit I think.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Oct 6, 2012 -> 01:15 PM) Hector clearly has better stuff than Q, the strike out numbers will tell you that. Yeah well my own eyes tell me different so I guess we'll just disagree. Jose pitches to contact & throws fewer pitches. Santiago OTOH pitches for the K and his pitch count shows it, along with his career BB numbers. K total doesn't always correlate to raw stuff. Neither pitcher is really a "stuff" pitcher anyway. Both are deceptive lefthanders. That screwball isn't going to work over a full MLB season, just my opinion, and if Santiago stays here and works a full season as a starter than I certainly hope I'm wrong.

QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Oct 5, 2012 -> 09:36 PM) Much better stuff = better upside. In theory. But that's just it, he doesn't have better stuff. His fastball is faster and that's all I can see that he has over Quintana. That screwball isn't anything impressive. Hitters aren't supposed to be able to sit on your offspeed pitch and hit it 5 miles out, especially while still covering the fastball, and that's what happened during a good portion of his time spent on the roster this season. IMO fans are making way too much both of Quintana's fade after a heavy workload & Hector's Charlotte stats + performance in a couple of starts, 3 of which (vs. KC, CLE, MIN) were against bad teams in garbage time. Hector is a nice young player but let's not forget why he sat in the pen so long earlier in the season, why he was used the way he was after losing the closer's job & also how Leyson Septimo took his roster spot. All the Quintana trade stuff is kind of absurd, I mean, all people b**** about is how we don't have enough good young players, and then as soon as you get one you want to "sell high." WTF? Was he supposed to throw 200IP of strong baseball in his first full season? After having spent the previous season in A+ ball? LOL, this guy has 300 career MiLB IP and his MiLB career high came last year at a whopping 102 IP. Yeah, sell high. My ass.

QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Oct 5, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) I'm usually not but that just stuck out for some reason since I'd never seen it before. The ones I usually see are: for all intensive purposes (for all intents and purposes) mute point (moot point) take for granite (take for granted) Don't be a pre-madonna.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Oct 4, 2012 -> 03:27 PM) I don't think Quintana has the "stuff" and pedigree to get the return that would make the risk worth trading. I agree. Teams don't like having to overpay for an overachiever type, and since you'd have to overpay the Sox to force them into trading away 5 years of a good, cost-effective player, a deal is probably unlikely.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 4, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) I can see some reasons - Santiago has nastier stuff and more velocity, so he might be better in the long run. That said, I don't see wanting to get rid of either of them. Santiago throws his fastball a couple ticks harder but it's just as hittable as Quintana's is when left out over the plate; actually since Jose mixes it up more Santiago's fastball is even more hittable most of the time since it's easier for hitters to guess on. Quintana's assortment of pitches is much more impressive to me than Santiago's. I think both have ceilings as #3s but Santiago I think is a lot farther away than Quintana, who is close to being a finished product. Jose IMO just needs the experience and MLB conditioning. Santiago OTOH needs all that plus a better slider since that screwball doesn't do a whole lot. Quintana's fade I think had a lot more to do with his physical strength/durability along with some questionable advice from the dugout on pitch calls and sequence than anything else. If he throws good strikes & mixes it up he'll be a good pitcher. I like Santiago too but if 1 lefty has to go (as part of a package for someone good) I think it's an easy choice.

Maybe it's just me, but I have no idea why anyone would ever choose to keep Hector Santiago over Jose Quintana.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 4, 2012 -> 11:40 AM) Better than 50/50 odds Dan Johnson doesn't hit 3 homers in the major leagues in 2013. Disagree. I think he at least gets a bench role somewhere at the minimum, and over 100 AB or so he'll get at least 4.

Johnson gives a good AB. For a lefty stick at the league minimum with power and the ability to take a walk, I'd like him back in whatever role. If you go nutty with the rebuilding stuff this offseason he's a fine stopgap, otherwise he's best as a bench bat who can fill in if necessary & force himself into greater playing time if he's good enough. There have been a lot of players around his age & experience level who have bounced around a while before having 2-3 good years as starters somewhere, and while unlikely, you can never say never.

Easy solution if Stone wants away from Hawk. Stone + Farmio again = much better radio broadcast than the current one Hawk + DJ again = Hawk's happy No need to blow the whole thing up, at least not unless Rooney wants back in (he doesn't).

QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) If you're going to trade nearly all of the veterans for prospects/young players, then there is no reason in the world to bring Peavy back. Peavy wanted to stay in SD even though they sucked. You need someone to help anchor the rotation along with Sale & Danks. That leaves Quintana as the #4 and a legitimate competition between several players for the #5 slot. Lots of competition is a good thing, that way you don't end up with Dylan Axelrod going out there every 5th day. Also it's nice to have both a veteran clubhouse influence and a possible veteran SP to use as trade bait over the deadline if we're out of it. Danks & Peavy would mean 1 could go while still keeping a vet. And if you're reasonable in your expectations, IMO trading a bunch of vets isn't necessarily a bad idea. Alexei's deal might not look so decent a year from now; Pauile is up there in age; Alex & Dunn can take year-long mental vacations, so now is the time to deal them if you want to guard against that; and there's no reason not to shop expensive setup men in the last years of their deals. I don't think it's out of the question to see this team deal away a couple vets, refrain from bringing back a couple other vets, and yet still win more than 85 games next season. I don't want to see a Cubs-style full rebuild, but adding some more youth is the right course of action, and just getting a couple nice, younger pieces in there over the offseason ala 2007 with Floyd/Gavin, 2008 with CQ/Alexei, etc. could go a long way.

Definitely traded: Gavin Floyd Jessie Crain Matt Thornton Nontender/trade: Phil Humber On the block & heavily shopped for very good prospects/young 1st year MLB players: Alejandro DeAza Alexei Ramirez Heavily shopped as part of a deal for a team controllable, MLB-proven starting pitcher or starting position player: Addison Reed Hector Santiago Trayce Thompson Salary dump deal: Adam Dunn On the block for full salary relief + 1 good prospect/reclamation projects + 1 decent piece: Paul Konerko Alex Rios Definitely core pieces: Chris Sale Dayan Viciedo Gordon Beckham Jose Quintana Nate Jones John Danks Donnie Veal Tyler Flowers (if AJ isn't back) Try like hell to bring him back: Brett Myers as a setup man on a 2-year deal (makes it easier to trade Crain, closer insurance) Jake Peavy See what they have/No point in trying to move for obvious reasons: Leyson Septimo Brian Omogrosso Jhan Marinez Major (youth) targets in any deal/through the Rule-5/MiLB FA: Starting SS Starting 3B LH power hitter, wherever he plays Contact-based OF with power + range, wherever he plays I go into the offseason with this thinking process & see what I can get done. At the end, if I still have holes to fill that I kind fill with possible/probable 3-5 year window players, then I hunt for bargains on the FA market.

QUOTE (flavum @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 10:24 AM) This team is in need of a new coat of paint. Short of changing the uniforms, they are in need of a new approach, a new attitude, and some athletic players with some balls. You can't just bash homers against bad to mediocre starters and win playoff spots. You have to occasionally beat good pitchers by being athletic and scrap a few runs. I hope Rick Hahn changes some things. The Sox were pathetic this year with the bunt, hitting behind the runner, the hit and run, stealing without getting caught, etc. and they were absolute trash in the second half in terms of converting outs into runs when the situation allowed for it. While getting better in those areas would help, the biggest problems were the bottom of the order giving away ABs with RISP, especially with a man on third and less than 2 outs. Also Robin's insistence on Dunn as a 3 hole hitter hurt, and one of the biggest issues was Paulie's second half. Addressing those areas: First of all, the anti-Dunn stance is questionable at best given the number of key home runs he hit and key runs driven in with base hits. He's just more of a 5/6 hitter than a 3 type. Robin hit him there as a lefty but with AJs year they could have swapped spots. Personally I hope AJ gets his money (and he probably will be low-balled again here) and I hope Dunn is gone just simply because he's owed so much money. We may not have to deal with any of this next year, but even if we don't, true #3 types don't grow on trees. Kenny/Hahn need to be looking at other organizations for another CQ type buy low opportunity. As for the bottom of the lineup, hopefully Viciedo continues to improve and gives away fewer AB next year. If we go toward more of a rebuild, there's a chance Alexei is gone. No matter what, we're probably going to have issues with the bottom of our lineup giving away ABs because those issues apply to most teams out there. Then re: Paulie, there's nothing you can do there other than hope he gets healthy. If you trade him off & hope he gets a last shot at a ring then great, but chances are slim that his production is replaced if that's the case. Bottom line, this team easily had enough to win this division. We should have won this division without question. We blew it. We choked. There's no reason to overreact and change everything just because this team s*** the bed under pressure over the last month and a half. Just keep heading in the same direction if possible and continue to add talent. Forgetting about how good this team was in the first half amnd just focusing on the second could lead to some bad decisions that negatively affect the organization going forward.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 09:25 AM) Feel free to write your own headstone

Time for the eulogy. Where is soxwon/Da Reverend when you need him?

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 22, 2012 -> 11:46 PM) Remember to wear your 50 pieces of flair at Shennanagans. [GodwinsLaw]The Nazis had pieces of flair they made the Jews wear[/GodwinsLaw]

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 02:09 PM) Good post. Sox definitely had a lot of name players having career years. So that's scary in looking ahead. Not at all if you'll be looking to move salary. Rios, Dunn, Crain, and Thornton should all be on the block. Reed and Santiago could be a part of a rather nice package. Floyd & Humber haven't exactly had nice seasons, but they're already gone. If anything, Floyd's mediocre value will make him a candidate to be gone prior to the winter meetings. I expect Gavin is the first domino to fall & IMO there's a good chance he's either a Blue Jay, an Oriole or a Pirate by the time the GM meetings are over. And it'll be nice to see AJ get a good payday. If you like player movement, this will be a fun offseason I think. I really can't wait to see what Kenny does, assuming he's still the one greenlighting the moves in the end. This is the perfect offseason for the Jermaine Dye/Matt Thornton/Juan Uribe type of under the radar move to fill a hole.

If I started this new thread myself, and kept the content of the first post the same, instead of "Word on 35th..." the title of the thread would be "Things That Would Have To Happen In Order For Me To Wear A Twins Hat."

QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 29, 2012 -> 03:36 PM) How about contributing to threads more instead of continually posting polls all day. I thought he was one of you guys.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 28, 2012 -> 07:06 PM) When Vlad was Viciedo's age he put up a 150+ OPS. If Viciedo played a premium defensive position you could afford to wait on his bat to develop. LF'ers have to produce pretty much from day 1. Offense + Defense = Production, because when the whole idea is to win a ballgame, saving/preventing a run is just as good as scoring a run. In LF you're generally talking about a player with a major deficiency, either in terms of arm strength, power, OBP, range etc. plus a couple key strengths, like you'll have a Viciedo type (arm+power, low OBP, not so rangey) or a Pierre type (speed, range, no arm, also low OBP) etc. When you say LFers have to produce right away, produce like what? Who are you comparing to? The best players are almost always in CF and RF. Viciedo's arm and power gives him attributes a lot of other LF types aren't going to have, and what LFers out there is he supposed to most closely resemble? Especially in his first full season? Also I'm not sure what the theme of your posts is other than basic negativity and hatred of KW. You obviously want to contend (you want to upgrade over Viciedo) but at the same time you hate your aggressive GM who does nothing but try to contend. What are you looking for? You want good, young, productive players then it means you have to acquire them before they become stars, play them, live with their mistakes, live with the growing pains, and if it works out then you can enjoy it when they turn out. If OTOH you just want productive vets then you can have a run for a couple of years if things go right, but if they don't, and teams aren't willing to take on all your massive payroll mistakes, then you get a nice several seasons of completely miserable baseball before you can acquire another core to build around. And as much as it sucks to watch a bunch of half-hearts like this team try to back into the postseason, it sucks a whole lot more when you're out of it in June.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 28, 2012 -> 06:25 PM) Good post. If you look at Viciedo's numbers from late April through May in Charlotte in 2011, he's shown the capability to take a lot more walks. Part of it has to do with where he's hitting in the batting order. As long as Williams is nominally in charge, there's no way he trades Dayan at this point in his career. I'm not saying he's going to go David Ortiz-post Twins, but I've always been a big believer in his hitting talent, and his defense (especially considering his arm and how many opposing runners would take advantage of Pods and Pierre) this year has been a net plus for a LFer, compared to a negative. Like the rest of the outfield, he's had a few key defensive miscues in the last 4-6 months, but, overall, he's been just fine defensively. And yeah, you'd be looking at someone like Colby Rasmus, who can play CF and allow DeAza to slide over to LF where he's obviously more comfortable. And Rasmus, as we know, has his share of detractors. In fact, their OPS numbers are pretty similar. The main advantage you get out of that is improving the defense in two places, possibly. Rasmus is a perfect example of the type of return you could get for Viciedo. You gain defense, but you take a hit in the clubhouse, and IMO you should always go with the better character type if you can. Clubhouse chemistry is huge, and that's important, but even more important than that is having a player who will listen to his coaches when he's hurting the team and needs to change something.