The Ultimate Champion

The Rangers are willing to trade Olt if it lands them Justin Upton. I doubt there's a match anywhere on our side but at least there's someone else interesting possibly out there.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 13, 2012 -> 08:16 PM) Every team in baseball will want Stanton and the Marlins, when they trade him,probably next year when he can get arb money, will want prospects. Hope for some big years from the higher thought of,minor leaguers next season, He needs to openly and very loudly campaign for a trade both for the good of himself & for the good of baseball. The bigger the scene & the more negative attention the Marlins receive the better.

WTF is going on here This trade, the Dodgers deals, the extra wild card, the Astros are in the AL... WTF this isn't even baseball anymore. This s*** isn't supposed to happen.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 13, 2012 -> 09:32 AM) I'd jizz. I'd jizz on your jizz.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 13, 2012 -> 09:08 AM) Its not a great deal, but is the kind of deal that is out there for 2012. It is a revenue neutral deal, it gives the Sox a 3B, and it gives them a two hole hitter. It also buys them another year at 3B if they can't bring back Youk. For the Rangers it gives them a starter to replace Dempster, not to mention a starter who has actually proven he can pitch in a hitters paradise and in the AL. It also gives them a very good lefty to add to their pen. To me it isn't ideal, but it does fit for both teams. I think that's a great deal actually if we get prospects from Texas to make it worth it. Young as a stopgap is fine with me, but Floyd & Thornton I think are each individually worth more than Young is alone. For Texas in terms of salary it's a wonderful move, so we need to be compensated. They do have the prospects though.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 13, 2012 -> 01:27 AM) White Sox trade for Blake Tekotte Where's my prize? Sorry, doesn't count. The official dumping of Philip Humber won't count either.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 10:28 PM) Don't you mean "second" big move? We already signed to a two-year extension a top-10 pitcher in the AL... Actually yes, that is true.

My prediction is that Gavin Floyd goes to Baltimore on the 18th of this month, and we will sign a free agent within 4 days of the move. We will land a pitcher as the centerpiece, and it will be one of the O's former top prospects. There will be a second part added on their side, more minor. People will b****, but we will shed salary, acquire talent, and we'll get a worthwhile project for Coop. If I win my own contest I promise to kiss my own ass.

Predict the **SECOND** big move of the offseason in terms of type & also predict the date it happens and the position of the main player affected. Then post your prediction in this thread. This will be a contest. The winner of this prediction contest will receive an internet smiley from me. I will monitor this thread like a lesion on my ass until a winner is decided. There's only going to be one smiley given out so in the event that 2 posters predict the exact same thing on the exact same date, those posters will have to kill each other. I will then provide the winner of the death battle with a smiley. Think about this really hard and then cast your vote. Again, this is a poll.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 11, 2012 -> 10:14 AM) Most “big market” teams have a high priced star offensive player. The Sox will almost certainly have to find one after Konerko, Rios and Dunn are gone. Hamilton, signed to a long term deal, could be that guy. Hamilton will be 32 this season. He should have 5 good years left, at least. If you add the possibility of him DH’ing perhaps he has 7 or 8 years. An addition of Hamilton would be a "no brainer" for the next couple of years. Of course, it's the long term that gives any GM pause. $25 million per year for the next 5 years is reasonable. He should still be worth close to half of that in years 7 and 8. $150 million for 7 years should be acceptable, if he would take it. However, the question is; whether or not there would be room on the payroll for such an addition. The long term commitment is the biggest concern. In that regard, the Sox are in the enviable position of having almost no money committed past 2014. The only two players under contract for 2015 are Ramirez and Danks: Alexei Ramirez 13:$7M, 14:$9.5M, 15:$10M, 16:$10M club option ($1M buyout) John Danks 13:$14.25M, 14:$14.25M, 15:$14.25M, 16:$14.25M If you look at the 3 year "board", and try to imagine whom management is anticipating might be on the roster, you could project something like this for 2015 and or 2016, with Hamilton added: CF K. Walker (Tekotte, J. Mitchell) 2B C. Sanchez DH J. Hamilton RF C. Hawkins 1B K. Barnum C T. Flowers LF T. Thompson 3B ? SS Ramirez SP Danks Sales Quintana Castro Bullpen Santiago Reed Jones Veal There is potentially a lot of young talent that could fill out the roster, at a low cost. Then there are all of the unknown names that could be added along the way through the draft or trades. The absence of current long term contracts, coupled with some of the promising youngsters who are still 2 or 3 years from being ready to begin MLB service time, might actually give the Sox a little room to contemplate signing Hamilton. Why not go for it now, and see what happens after Dunn, Rios, Konerko, Peavy and some of the other guys are gone after 2014. Until then, that lineup would sure look good with Hamilton's left handed bat. There are some of our top prospects in there but of Walker, Thompson & Mitchell IMO you can hope for 1 and count on 0; between Sanchez, Hawkins & Barnum I think you can hope for 2 and count on 1. And in 3 years it will be hard for the Sox to afford Chris Sale if he stays healthy and produces like he did last year. Generally it's a bad idea for a team with $100-120M payrolls in mind to justify committing 1/4 - 1/5 of their payroll space to 1 player. Add in all the other issues and it's a no-brainer. No to Hamilton.

The way I look at it is that, if you sign Hamilton, there's a good chance you're going to get a player worth between $13-18M annually for a pricetag well above $20M per with enough years attached to make the deal immovable should you need the payroll space. There are lots of red flags on Hamilton, including injury risk, off field drug/alcohol related risk, the Texas hitting factor, the Texas lineup protection factor, the second half last season, etc. Look at his career stats while omitting the 2010 .359/.411/.633 and tell me that he's a $25M player. Sure, that 2010 season he was, in fact he was worth even more than that, but any other years? I don't think so. Keep in mind that this guy is going to get one hell of a payday and isn't going to have to play for another contract for probably at least the next 4 years. To this point we've been talking about a player trying to play himself into the league, then trying to play himself into a starting role, then into paydays via arbitration, and recently he's been playing for a big FA deal. For an ex-druggie especially, but really for any player under any circumstances, 4 years is a long time for a player to have to motivate himself to the same level of performance that he achieved with all those carrots dangling out in front of him. Just look at this man statistically and how his OBP & HR totals fluctuate. He needed 704 PA in 2008 to hit 32 bombs in Texas; he needed a more reasonable 571 to hit the same amount in 2010, but he hit only 25 in 538 PA in 2011, and that makes his total of 43 last year look more like the exception than the rule. And make no mistake, for $25M per you're buying a home run hitter. Best (reasonable) scenario for Hamilton IMO is he's a very good, mostly All-Star type player over 5 years who is probably worth about $16M per on average. We'd probably end up paying something like $115M for that $80M or so in production. My own personal opinion is that Alex Rios, who is also a risk, may very well just be coming into his own, and we already have that guy at a much more reasonable contract length and salary. Hamilton is going to put up better numbers overall, but really, is the difference between Alex Rios & Hamilton so much money per season ($12.5M if Hamilton gets his $25M) that it pays for another high-level starting pitcher or position player? Again, I don't think so. I say let Hamilton get his bad contract elsewhere. I would like to see the Sox largely continue to target less risky players who have room for improvement beyond their pay.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Nov 10, 2012 -> 06:02 PM) I imagine he'd ask for MORE to play here, as he'll need all the money he can get to score crack. It IS the south side, after all...... That said, not worth it. Injury prone and didnt we learn our lessons with peavy/rios/dunn? What is the price of crack near the Cell these days? I've always operated under the rule of 1 bag of crack = 1 suckoff, with the current market determining the quality of each. Anyway, we get Hamilton and.... yeah, we're not getting Hamilton.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Nov 9, 2012 -> 03:00 PM) That's why I never pay attention to any media when it comes to players on the trading block. They all are if there is a deal to good to pass up. Yeah it should pretty much be assumed that middle relievers & setup men in their mid-to-late 30's making in excess of $4M per in the last seasons of their contracts are always available. They're out there.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 9, 2012 -> 01:26 PM) Who is going to fill Hafner's platoon role during the 3 months of the season he will be injured? If he gets hurt you call up your Dan Johnson in AAA, trade for someone else's Dan Johnson in AAA, maybe pick up a Reed Johnson. Etc. Really, you lose what? Complimentary platoon players are a dime a dozen if you need them. By contrast, what happens if 2011 Adam Dunn shows up again? Nothing, you just eat $30M. I hope to God that the Sox are looking at every possible way to dump Dunn's money, and if they can find a taker, they had better do it. Rios too. I love the man's talent and always have, but please get him out of here before he suffers another 6 month long brain cramp.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 9, 2012 -> 09:29 AM) What makes you believe you can rely on Victorino and Hafner after their up and down performances the last 2/3 seasons? Why would you want to get older instead of younger? There's definitely going to be some players out there worth taking a risk on, and there's obviously going to be this "catch lightning in the bottle/roll the dice" as it worked in 2005, it can work again, philosophy, but it's not going to be a sustainable model for success at all. It puts us right back in the "must win in 2014/2015" time frame...we better cross our fingers that one of those guys like Thompson or Sanchez emerges at nearly Gordon Beckham 2009 impact mode to inject some youth, OBP and athleticism into the future offensive line-ups. I don't want to get older, I want to get younger where we can with big time type players. ADA is solid, but as a LF he's not nearly the same value as a CF. It's very clear he's not comfortable in CF and doesn't want to play there. I'd be very open to moving him because I believe a LF with his skill set is not an integral part to our success in the future. I wouldn't trade any good, young, high upside long term pieces but I don't think we have many of those anyway. OTOH I'd have no problem rearranging deck chairs and reallocating payroll from one area to another by bringing in proven vets on 1-3 year deals, preferably 1 yr + option or 2 yr + option deals. I think Hafner is a great target. I can't find the stats but IIRC he seems to do very well at the Cell, loves the batters eye or something. If we could dump Dunn, we could realistically get him for 2 years as a platoon partner for well less than we'd be giving Dunn in 1 year. Paulie is getting up there, so extra DH time would be good for him, and Viciedo could use more DH time as well if we're going to be working in other OF possibilities over that span. I would actually love Hafner for 2 years $12M, dump Dunn while eating no more than $5M in return contracts or salary, and you end up with about $13-18M left over to spread out into other areas. I really want Dunn gone honestly. He's a headcase and now is the time to dump his ass if we can. Sorry.

Dump Dunn's deal if you can, free up cash Sign Victorino to replace DeAza with Floyd's salary Use Floyd & DeAza in deals for other pieces Sign Hafner & set up a platoon DH with Hafner vs. RHP & rotate PK/Viciedo/Rios/FA OF vs. LHP, to give the starters a rest while keeping their bats in the lineup

All this tells me is that there is at least one big fish the Sox are after in the trade market. Beckham makes really no sense to deal given cost + upside vs. trade value, DeAza is movable since he wants to be a LF, Floyd is obvious, but with Viciedo, if you trade him, you're going to get a stud back in return.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 01:38 PM) I think the Sox would be doing handstands in joy if somebody would take Dunn and his contract off the Sox hands. Do you all at least agree on that? I agree with you. That's $30M to reinvest in better all-around baseball players who are less likely to fall off a cliff. I doubt a deal would go down like a straight waiver claim however. IMO it would be a couple low value pieces cumulatively making $1-4M coming back, with maybe a middling prospect, and if we're not taking on any cash then we're probably eating something. I'd make that deal 10 times out of 10, especially this early in the offseason. I don't think we're close enough to legitimate WS contention to worry about "fit," we need to concern ourselves with controllable talent that is going to help lead the next great Sox team.

McCarthy would be a smart move. Teams interested in him on a 1-year deal would probably be the same teams interested in Floyd on a 1-year deal. Sign McCarthy while giving up nothing, say for $8M with an option and a $1.5M buyout, and make the trade market a little better for Floyd. Turn around and trade Floyd for a prospect and a part. In total, you've picked up a prospect, a part, cut a little salary most likely, hopefully picked up an option year on a good player, and you've lost nothing. Later in the offseason you look to acquire a high quality SP prospect who is near ready, and you use that prospect, Molina, Castro, Rienzo etc. as insurance for your #5 (should be Q) and you give your youth some starts when - not if - McCarthy goes down. The Sox need to get creative and continue to add talent. I know some teams have already traded their competitive balance lottery draft picks, but that's another potential target for the Sox. Maybe if you can't get something you really like for one of your players, you go after a team with a pick to trade and build a deal around that.

Good. So far he's seems like he has been a great hire. I like all the promotions as of late however I hope the bottom end continues to improve at it seems that (at best) most of the past developmental mistakes which have haunted our farm over the years have occurred at the lower levels on all sides.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 05:25 PM) I'm still upset to this day about how long Andy Gonzalez was up at the MLB level in '07 while Jason Bourgeois was in Charlotte and had so much more capability. That wasn't a 100% GM kind of decision though, I'd assume. Other than that, KW has never done anything that absolutely infuriated me, and for the most I've been pleased with his tenure. Andy Gonzalez was once a prospect we were supposed to be on the lookout for. Turns out he was garbage, but I think he played just to make sure that he was what we thought he was. The big misses that year were Grinderstad as the Opening Day starter over homegrown 1st Round pick Anderson & not calling up Sweeney. But in hindsight, it's obvious the Sox had moved on from Ryan and just wanted to preserve his trade value by limiting his service time as much as possible.

Out of all the prospects KW has traded, Gio is the only one really worth talking about. Even ones who did well - at least for a while - had injury issues (like Hudson), or never became what they were supposed to as a regular (ex Young, Olivo), or flat out busted (Reed), or took a long time to develop into anything significant (Morse, possibly Carter). In the meantime, he managed to acquire a lot of very good players for very little, didn't make any Theo-esque horrid FA signings like Crawford or Lackey, and he found a way to put contending teams out there most of the time, even if they choked on the Twins/Tigers/Royals when it mattered. He also showed lots of guts in constantly trying to win. He only made a few moves that couldn't be justified at the time and still can't be justified in hindsight. Overall he added to the organization more than he subtracted, and during his tenure the Sox became more of a nationally relevant franchise again, even if it's still seen as being in the shadow of the Cubs. Kenny has been an excellent GM & I am sad to see him go, however scaling back his duties to focus more on macro issues may end up making better use of *some* of his strengths. One strength that he won't be able to call on anymore is his highly emotional aggressiveness, which was an excellent quality to have in a GM when you're stuck with a worm-doing sky-pointing retard who likes to stand at the dish and watch pitches until the umpire tells him to either walk to first or go back to the dugout. The 2nd Swisher deal is one of my favorite KW moves, also the Jon Rauch thing was great to see too. Mostly though I think his best strengths are in scouting and finding values wherever they may present themselves, and I think he'll continue to serve the organization well by picking key points and focusing on each one in greater detail.

Andrus would be very expensive via trade and if you made that deal you'd want to extend him and replace Alexei IMO, given the age difference.

If the Sox had the talent to beat NY, Texas, etc. then they certainly had the talent to beat KC and Detroit. A lot of those losses you hang on poor preparation, and what really sticks out in my mind are the first pitch fastballs to Delmon Young and the way the Sox refused to pitch in to the Royals hitters and made them so comfortable in the box that they spent an entire series reaching into the LH batters box poking balls into RF. The Sox showed some red flags this year re: game preparedness, durability/conditioning (expected of a young team) and stubborness (playing hurt, killing the team), but I am not so sure they showed how the roster was constructed inappropriately. It still surprises me all the crap about low team OBP when the real problem was stranding runners in situations where you could score them even while making an out. Yes high OBP would be better and is something we should shoot for, but team construction wasn't a major key to the Sox collapse in late August and September.

QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:23 AM) Are there any competent offensive players that could be moved to 3b ala Teahan? Wouldn't be out of the ordinary for KW to fill that role. Teahen was moved from 3B to the OF and settled in as a UT player. We'd want someone who would be able to stick at the position. If you are talking about strong-armed SS with limited range but quick feet and good hands, I'm not sure who would be out there, but maybe there is someone. You kind of need to watch a lot of other teams players to identify traits that would make for a good 3B out of a SS because the stats tell very little. I imagine the Sox, in the weak 3B market and with Morel looking like a lost cause given his back, are looking at every possible option and would consider someone like that if they could find the right player.