President Donald Trump: The Thread

[Jenksismyhero]

Per the emails, the point of the meeting was for the Russians to provide dirt on Hillary Clinton that would help the Trump campaign.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07...email-text.html

 

It's certainly not the right move, so don't think i'm excusing/justifying it. But being provided information versus requesting information from a foreign power (who's basically an enemy) in exchange for something are two very different things.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I'd bet my salary that all this back channeling was to make money on deals, not win the election.

 

Don't those things go hand-in-hand? If Trump wins the Presidency, he can work towards things like removing the economic sanctions on Russia.

[StrangeSox]

Link? He had a meeting with someone who ended up being a known representative of the government. I don't buy he was meeting with someone about adoption, but I don't think there's any proof as to what they talked about and whether it was about specific actions in regards to the election. These are all greedy, corrupt mother f***ers, and I'd believe it was about business before the election 100 times out of 100.

 

the initial email was very clearly stating that it was about dirt on Clinton, to which Trump Jr. responded "I love it!"

 

There's no plausible deniability about going into a meeting to discuss damaging information on your political opponents and also sanctions that the Russian government has been upset about and lobbying against for awhile. The implications there are 100% clear.

 

 

In what regard? What did they discuss? What did Manafort request and what did Putin offer? That's the problem here, you keep saying it was to influence the election but there's zero evidence of that.

 

We're talking about the scenario where enough information comes out that we are reasonably certain, not what is publicly known right now.

Edited September 21, 2017 by StrangeSox

[CrimsonWeltall]

It's certainly not the right move, so don't think i'm excusing/justifying it. But being provided information versus requesting information from a foreign power (who's basically an enemy) in exchange for something are two very different things.

 

Sure, but your post implied we don't know squat about what the meeting was. We do: the Russians trying to help Trump and Trump's inner circle being on board.

[Jenksismyhero]

Don't those things go hand-in-hand? If Trump wins the Presidency, he can work towards things like removing the economic sanctions on Russia.

 

I suppose, but that's not election meddling. That's Trump illegally benefiting from his role (obviously not ok)

[CrimsonWeltall]

I suppose, but that's not election meddling. That's Trump illegally benefiting from his role (obviously not ok)

 

What I'm saying is that Trump + Putin can enrich themselves far more with Trump as President than not. So saying these guys just care about money doesn't preclude collusion to win the election.

[Jenksismyhero]

Sure, but your post implied we don't know squat about what the meeting was. We do: the Russians trying to help Trump and Trump's inner circle being on board.

 

In regards to what, if anything, Russia did with respect to "election meddling." If providing dirt on Hillary is what you or SS are considering as "meddling," fine. But to that end, whoever leaked the Access Hollywood tape was "meddling." Dan Rather was "meddling" when he filed his false report about Bush's war record. To me that's not the same as the claim that Trump's campaign actively assisted and/or requested Russia use hacking measures, making ads, false news, etc.

 

 

[illinilaw08]

In regards to what, if anything, Russia did with respect to "election meddling." If providing dirt on Hillary is what you or SS are considering as "meddling," fine. But to that end, whoever leaked the Access Hollywood tape was "meddling." Dan Rather was "meddling" when he filed his false report about Bush's war record. To me that's not the same as the claim that Trump's campaign actively assisted and/or requested Russia use hacking measures, making ads, false news, etc.

 

Legally, it's very different. Someone leaking the Access Hollywood tape to the press is very different than soliciting dirt from a foreign government.

[Jenksismyhero]

Legally, it's very different. Someone leaking the Access Hollywood tape to the press is very different than soliciting dirt from a foreign government.

 

Legally this is also very different. There's no proof of that (yet).

[StrangeSox]

Meeting with foreign agents specifically and explicitly to obtain damaging information on your political opponents seems different in nature from a US media company releasing recordings of one of the candidates.

[illinilaw08]

Legally this is also very different. There's no proof of that (yet).

 

What we do have proof of is that the meeting came about because the Russian party was promising dirt on Hillary Clinton. That's pretty black and white in the e-mail.

 

Whether that reaches Trump himself is obviously very up for debate. And what was actually discussed in the meeting is also obviously unknown. But Trump, Jr.'s intent in taking the meeting was very clearly to get damaging info on Hillary Clinton from the Russians (or at least from this one Russian).

[StrangeSox]

Legally this is also very different. There's no proof of that (yet).

 

 

On Jun 3, 2016, at 10:36 AM, Rob Goldstone wrote:

Good morning

Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

 

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.

 

On Jun 3, 2016, at 10:53, Donald Trump Jr. wrote:

Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?

Best,

Don

 

I don't know how much more explicit you can get. Goldstone offered Trump Jr. information that was "part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump," and Trump Jr. said "I love it."

 

They knew they were dealing with foreign agents representing themselves as providing information as part of the Russian government's efforts.

[StrangeSox]

What we do have proof of is that the meeting came about because the Russian party was promising dirt on Hillary Clinton. That's pretty black and white in the e-mail.

 

Whether that reaches Trump himself is obviously very up for debate. And what was actually discussed in the meeting is also obviously unknown. But Trump, Jr.'s intent in taking the meeting was very clearly to get damaging info on Hillary Clinton from the Russians (or at least from this one Russian).

 

And they presented the information explicitly as part of the Russian government's efforts to help Trump.

 

Something in Manafort's notes from that meeting seem to refer to political contributions, possibly to the RNC, as well.

[Jenksismyhero]

What we do have proof of is that the meeting came about because the Russian party was promising dirt on Hillary Clinton. That's pretty black and white in the e-mail.

 

Whether that reaches Trump himself is obviously very up for debate. And what was actually discussed in the meeting is also obviously unknown. But Trump, Jr.'s intent in taking the meeting was very clearly to get damaging info on Hillary Clinton from the Russians (or at least from this one Russian).

 

But that's not solicitation. He didn't actively seek Russia's help. He was notified that someone wanted to meet to discuss what info they had. I think i'd take that meeting to, if I were Trump Jr. I might have sent a proxy just so it didn't look bad, but i'd want to know what info they had.

 

I'm not even sure obtaining dirt from a foreign agent is illegal unless there's something provided in return.

[CrimsonWeltall]

In regards to what, if anything, Russia did with respect to "election meddling." If providing dirt on Hillary is what you or SS are considering as "meddling," fine. But to that end, whoever leaked the Access Hollywood tape was "meddling." Dan Rather was "meddling" when he filed his false report about Bush's war record.

 

I don't think the media and hostile foreign governments are comparable entities. Moreover, there was no indication that Trump/Bush's political opponents were involved with those things.

 

To me that's not the same as the claim that Trump's campaign actively assisted and/or requested Russia use hacking measures, making ads, false news, etc.

 

No, it's not the same, but it's in the ballpark. And these are just the things we know from leaks. The Trump campaign has been lying about their involvement with the Russians from day 1, again and again and again.

 

We know they were *interested* in getting assistance from the Russians in one form, and we also know they *did* get assistance from the Russians in other forms. If you're waiting for a video to get leaked of Trump and Putin signing a document titled "Collusion Contract", that's probably not going to happen.

[StrangeSox]

Unless you're talking about the police entrapping someone, I don't think it matters whether Russian agents acting on behalf of the Russian government (or presenting themselves as such) approached the Trump team or the Trump team approached them first. And as far as what they were getting in return for that information, that's where the whole sanctions/adoption discussion comes into play. Russia has been trying to get those repealed for a while now, and setting up a meeting to discuss information on your political opponent from the Russian government as well as adoption restrictions has crystal clear implications.

 

If you're waiting for a video to get leaked of Trump and Putin signing a document titled "Collusion Contract", that's probably not going to happen.

 

 

This is why Congress will never do anything and Republicans will never abandon him over this. Hell, they'd probably make excuses even if we did have that.

Edited September 21, 2017 by StrangeSox

[illinilaw08]

But that's not solicitation. He didn't actively seek Russia's help. He was notified that someone wanted to meet to discuss what info they had. I think i'd take that meeting to, if I were Trump Jr. I might have sent a proxy just so it didn't look bad, but i'd want to know what info they had.

 

I'm not even sure obtaining dirt from a foreign agent is illegal unless there's something provided in return.

 

The below link has a pretty good summary of the state of the law.

 

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/10/1595059...k-times-illegal

 

"A solicitation is an oral or written communication that, construed as reasonably understood in the context in which it is made, contains a clear message asking, requesting, or recommending that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value."

 

In this case, the anything of value would be damaging information.

 

In my understanding, it's basically politics 101 that you immediately refer a solicitation like this one to the FBI...

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

The media came out and said he committed a clear crime and yet no charges have been brought. It's a pretty clear cut case if true, so where's the indictment?

 

Regardless, that still doesn't get us to the meddling that you all are claiming. At best you have Manafort asking for RNC contributions in exchange for sanction relief (illegal), but that's not "meddling" with the election system in the ways that are being alleged.

[Jenksismyhero]

And by the way, didn't Trump increase sanctions against Russia? Sure, that could be a "cover my ass" move, but that doesn't seem to be Donald's MO. If he doesn't think he did anything wrong he doubles down.

[CrimsonWeltall]

And by the way, didn't Trump increase sanctions against Russia? Sure, that could be a "cover my ass" move, but that doesn't seem to be Donald's MO. If he doesn't think he did anything wrong he doubles down.

 

Trump strongly opposed the sanctions, but signed them after Congress made it clear they would override any veto. He had no choice. The more of a stink he put up, the worse it would look.

[illinilaw08]

The media came out and said he committed a clear crime and yet no charges have been brought. It's a pretty clear cut case if true, so where's the indictment?

 

Regardless, that still doesn't get us to the meddling that you all are claiming. At best you have Manafort asking for RNC contributions in exchange for sanction relief (illegal), but that's not "meddling" with the election system in the ways that are being alleged.

 

Re: Sanctions. Congress passed the sanctions. Trump signed it, but he didn't give it a ringing endorsement.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/02/politics/don...bill/index.html

 

From the article "In a statement, Trump expressed his own doubts about the legislation: "The bill remains seriously flawed -- particularly because it encroaches on the executive branch's authority to negotiate."

 

Mueller is investigating everything, including that meeting with Donald, Jr. Whether Donald, Jr. will be charged with a crime is very unresolved.

 

As to the Russian election meddling, there's abundant evidence that Russia meddled in the election, and that they wanted Trump to win. Mueller is (among other things) investigating the Trump campaign's involvement (if any) in that.

 

Jenks, you know that a case like this is a really, really difficult case to investigate and prove. The Nixon investigation took like 18 months (off the top of my head) and they had tapes of Nixon. As Crimson said, there isn't going to be some contract titled "Collusion to Influence Election" but there is a lot of evidence of impropriety between people close to Trump (Manafort, Flynn, Kushner, and Trump, Jr. at a minimum) and people related to Russia. Maybe there isn't ultimately anything there, but drawing a conclusion that there isn't anything there after 3 months of investigating is really, really shortsighted.

[Dick Allen]

The media came out and said he committed a clear crime and yet no charges have been brought. It's a pretty clear cut case if true, so where's the indictment?

 

Regardless, that still doesn't get us to the meddling that you all are claiming. At best you have Manafort asking for RNC contributions in exchange for sanction relief (illegal), but that's not "meddling" with the election system in the ways that are being alleged.

What about the twitter bots? Even Russian media is saying that is true.

 

And with all the contact between Russia and the Trump campaign, the question would have to be why? Why did they want Trump elected? What's in it for them? Trump is America first, is he not? And why so much contact? And why all the denials? And why all the changing of security clearance forms after "fake news" reported on these meetings these people you want running the country couldn't remember?

Edited September 21, 2017 by Dick Allen

[StrangeSox]

The media came out and said he committed a clear crime and yet no charges have been brought. It's a pretty clear cut case if true, so where's the indictment?

 

Regardless, that still doesn't get us to the meddling that you all are claiming. At best you have Manafort asking for RNC contributions in exchange for sanction relief (illegal), but that's not "meddling" with the election system in the ways that are being alleged.

 

People are talking about interference and influence in our election via collaboration with foreign governments, not necessarily and only actual election/vote tampering.

 

Meeting with foreign government agents to coordinate transfer of information in exchange for favorable treatment from the information as well as being complicit in that foreign government's propaganda campaign to directly influence our elections should be a big deal, but this is a pretty good example of how the average Republican will react. Nothing short of Trump on camera saying "I am colluding with you illegally Mr. Putin" will count,and even then probably not.

[StrangeSox]

What about the twitter bots? Even Russian media is saying that is true.

 

And with all the contact between Russia and the Trump campaign, the question would have to be why? Why did they want Trump elected? What's in it for them? Trump is America first, is he not? And why so much contact? And why all the denials? And why all the changing of security clearance forms after "fake news" reported on these meetings these people you want running the country couldn't remember?

 

 

That's important, too. Why do we have so many different denials and stories from them? How many different people have had multiple meetings they haven't disclosed and have had to change their stories on it multiple times?

 

Just with the Trump Jr/Kushner/Manafort collusion story, we had three or four separate statements, allegedly directed by Trump himself, that completely changed the story each time as more and more information was published.

[Quin]

Man, the gymnastics going on here.

 

Meeting with Veselnitskaya to discuss "adoptions" means they discussed sanctions. Which if I recall stuff from the Flynn scandal, is potentially super illegal.