6 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I defined it (for me) in my first paragraph.  They start making playoff runs (plural) in 2020-2021; a genuine contending team starting next season.  But you are kind of missing my point.  Define it however you want:  my point is that some here seem to have formed an opinion of Hahn’s efforts before their success (however you define it) can realistically be measured in the field, which seems backwards to me.

I don't think so. Process is important. And also he's one of the longer tenured GMs at this point, had he come on in 2017 I don't think there is as much discussion.

33 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

No wonder they suck.

That's why no one is held accountable.  JR certainly cannot hold those accountable who agreed with him.  To be clear...if I owned the club I would want to poke my nose into it as well.  Most of us would.  It takes a certain kind of owner to set the budget and step aside.  That's the owner who can hold his GM accountable with a clear conscience.

So Cowley was on the radio today and said there are Sox and Bulls employees that JR gets told by numerous individuals to let go, but he becomes defiant and keeps them around due to his loyalty and stubbornness.

14 minutes ago, fathom said:

So Cowley was on the radio today and said there are Sox and Bulls employees that JR gets told by numerous individuals to let go, but he becomes defiant and keeps them around due to his loyalty and stubbornness.

Hmm, that doesn't match up with old Mikey asking around the league if Gar and Pax are good and being told they are stupendous.

6 minutes ago, bmags said:

Hmm, that doesn't match up with old Mikey asking around the league if Gar and Pax are good and being told they are stupendous.

Didn't say it was outside his circle, or even outside the organization. I'd honestly be shocked if a board member has never said, hey maybe it's time to move on from these guys

Edited May 15, 20196 yr by mqr

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I don't think so. Process is important. And also he's one of the longer tenured GMs at this point, had he come on in 2017 I don't think there is as much discussion.

But to be fair the majority of his tenure has been defined by a strip-down rebuild (after a couple years trying to contend on the fly against his apparent wishes).  The rebuild was designed to produce godawful, losing seasons.  The ultimate success or failure of that project can’t be measured yet.  If the Sox win the pennant in 2021 I think any reasonable fan would say “good job Rick Hahn.”

 

48 minutes ago, bmags said:

Hmm, that doesn't match up with old Mikey asking around the league if Gar and Pax are good and being told they are stupendous.

Cowley said Gar deals directly with JR

1 hour ago, fathom said:

So Cowley was on the radio today and said there are Sox and Bulls employees that JR gets told by numerous individuals to let go, but he becomes defiant and keeps them around due to his loyalty and stubbornness.

I am not a Crowley guy but that isn’t surprising. JR is a very smart man, but everyone has weaknesses. I think he has a problem admitting being wrong, which a lot of us have, and he loves the I told you so. 

When the Sox won the division in 1983, JR was focused on calling the long gone Harry Caray and Jimmy Piersall scumbags. When they won it in 2000’ JR is in the clubhouse telling the media how wrong everyone was about the white flag trade. He is hoping he can tell people he was right and the obvious was wrong with both his teams now, GarPax success is based on beating unbelievable odds and landing DRose. If that never happened, would they have ever been more than a 6 or 7 seed? A lot is going to have to go right for it not to continue.

1 hour ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

But to be fair the majority of his tenure has been defined by a strip-down rebuild (after a couple years trying to contend on the fly against his apparent wishes).  The rebuild was designed to produce godawful, losing seasons.  The ultimate success or failure of that project can’t be measured yet.  If the Sox win the pennant in 2021 I think any reasonable fan would say “good job Rick Hahn.”

 

That’s not true. 2013-2016 is 4 seasons. 2017-2019 is 3 seasons.

I guess Hahn said on MLBN it is very likely Abreu will be a White Sox when they expect to be good. 

16 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I guess Hahn said on MLBN it is very likely Abreu will be a White Sox when they expect to be good. 

They must plan on being good pretty soon huh

17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I guess Hahn said on MLBN it is very likely Abreu will be a White Sox when they expect to be good. 

I hope this is true.  It means we will be good very soon.

38 minutes ago, bmags said:

That’s not true. 2013-2016 is 4 seasons. 2017-2019 is 3 seasons.

Fair enough—replace “majority” with “large part.”  The point stands, though—it would be odd to have an opinion of Hahn so rigid it would not be changed by the success of a rebuild that will define his career.  

57 minutes ago, bmags said:

That’s not true. 2013-2016 is 4 seasons. 2017-2019 is 3 seasons.

Well, to be fair/pick nits, it's true that Rick Hahn was [snicker] "trying to compete in 2013, 2014, and 2015. However:

1. The disasterous/ruinous/moronic/idiotic, and dumb trade for James Shields occurred on June 5, 2016. I mark this the penultimate move in the "attempt to compete" era of Rick Hahn's time as GM.

2. The famous "Mired in Mediocrity" presser was on July 20, 2016, or roughly 6 1/2 weeks after the dumbest trade that was never, ever going to make that shitty 2016 team compete. I mark the "Mired In Mediocrity" press conference as being the start of the rebuild, at least philosophically.

 

So, by the end of this season, Rick Hahn will have had ~3-1/2 seasons [snicker] "trying to compete," and ~2-1/2 seasons of trying to rebuild.  Is that fair?

2 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

But to be fair the majority of his tenure has been defined by a strip-down rebuild (after a couple years trying to contend on the fly against his apparent wishes).  The rebuild was designed to produce godawful, losing seasons.  The ultimate success or failure of that project can’t be measured yet.  If the Sox win the pennant in 2021 I think any reasonable fan would say “good job Rick Hahn.”

 

If the Sox win a pennant in 2021 I will say that Hahn and company did a great job. If the Sox are below 500 in September of 2020 then Hahn and company should be shit canned. 2020 will be year 4 of the rebuild. The Cubs made it all the way to the NLCS that year. The Sox should at least be fighting for the Central crown.  

29 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

If the Sox win a pennant in 2021 I will say that Hahn and company did a great job. If the Sox are below 500 in September of 2020 then Hahn and company should be shit canned. 2020 will be year 4 of the rebuild. The Cubs made it all the way to the NLCS that year. The Sox should at least be fighting for the Central crown.  

I hear you but the Cubs had a lot go right for them, ESPECIALLY concerning the health of their key rebuild pieces. The Sox can not even come close to make that claim.

1 minute ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I hear you but the Cubs had a lot go right for them, ESPECIALLY concerning the health of their key rebuild pieces. The Sox can not even come close to make that claim.

You make your own luck to a certain degree. Sick and tired of the excuses. 

1 hour ago, OneDog847 said:

You make your own luck to a certain degree. Sick and tired of the excuses. 

I absolutely agree with that... as Branch Rickey once said, "Luck is the residue of design..."