Just now, TaylorStSox said:

That's what I thought. Carry on. 

Your Cubs comment?  Yes, I am watching the game and hoping the Cardinals complete the sweep.  This is enjoyable.

4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

A very Caufield post. We have some insane assumptions and an extremely obscure reference hardly anyone will care about or understand. Credit due, at least it's a relatively short post. 

Generally people who struggle to use technology like Hawk, Stone and Cooper are not exactly going to be the strongest proponents of modern analytics.

You’re either with the future or you’re going to eventually be displaced, well...at least in most walks of society.

 

PS:  I’m nowhere close to Benetti in terms of obscure references, and my target market certainly isn’t the next generation of White Sox fans.  

“I don’t like that part of it. People are drinking beers, they get their beer muscles and they are not afraid to talk or act bigger. I don’t ever hear anything to my face at the field ever.”

Wow, does Cooper think he is some tough guy who people are afraid of?  The dude is old and shaped like a turtle.

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.mlb.com/news/don-cooper-discouraged-by-social-media-negativity

 

Don Cooper loves his job.

But there is one particular aspect of the overall position the outspoken White Sox pitching coach quite frankly doesn’t really like, as he relayed to MLB.com prior to Friday’s series opener in Detroit.

“Listen, I’ll be honest, the worst part of my job -- and I think I have the best job in the world -- is to deal with negative people and taking people to the negative side,” Cooper said. “Kicking us when we are down. It’s easy to do in a rebuild. But I’ll remember everybody who is doing it.

“The worst thing in the world that’s come along as far as I’m concerned is Twitter and a lot of social media [stuff] that gives voice to people who shouldn’t really have a voice, that don’t know what the hell the hitting coach’s job, the manager’s job, the pitching coach’s job, they have no clue what this job is.

“I don’t like that part of it. People are drinking beers, they get their beer muscles and they are not afraid to talk or act bigger. I don’t ever hear anything to my face at the field ever.”

He's so sensitive that his spouting off is funny more than tiresome or insulting. I mean cmon, Don. Show us the tweets. There isn't some massive tweet movement of angry sox fans blasting our pitching. There's not some internet movement to write angry stuff that would bother Coop. I did meet a huge Sox fan yesterday at a party BTW and I immediately asked him about Abreu. He LOVES Abreu and agreed the advanced statters who dislike him are nuts.

3 hours ago, Nardiwashere said:

This is Coop's thing (and has been forever) and it gets tiresome.  He even acts like Garfein is too negative when he goes on White Sox Talk Podcast and Garfein kisses his ass for 45 minutes.

Here's where he has a point- Sox Twitter has taken a super negative and petty turn this year and its gotten just as tiresome.  The Machado thing broke the fanbase. 

The team is in the middle of a rebuild.  I keep reading people say "The team has had losing seasons X years in a row" or "Rick Hahn's record is X" as if that offers some insight.  The team essentially tried to lose the past few years.  In two weeks, that will finally end.  The Sox record in 2017-2019 is largely irrelevant and Rick Hahn's winning percentage doesn't tell much of a story by itself. 

The perfect example of useless negativity- Josh Nelson keeps tweeting every time Kyle Lewis does something positive (with the implication that the Sox should have drafted him).   I guess I understand why bloggers/podcasters do it.  It riles people up and he gets clicks and downloads.  If Zack Collins and the Sox fail, he gets to run around and say "I told you so."  If they end up being great, no one will care to call him out.  If I was trying to make money off of covering the team and I had no access, not many original thoughts, and not much of a personality, I'd probably take the same approach.  

What would have happened had they not started a rebuild? 

I like when Donnie complains about attendance. The people listening are not the ones who ignore the team.

Cooper is old and tiresome. Fans will always complain. So what? Yes, I love it when Detwiler comes and does his three innings. It is also great when Lopez pitches great one day and gets bombed the next. I really think oxygen isn't making its way all the way up. Just wait when Cooper really gets old. And we will remember his fat ass, too.

6 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

Cooper is old and tiresome. Fans will always complain. So what? Yes, I love it when Detwiler comes and does his three innings. It is also great when Lopez pitches great one day and gets bombed the next. I really think oxygen isn't making its way all the way up. Just wait when Cooper really gets old. And we will remember his fat ass, too.

Coop is harmless. However think of the paying customer on a night you have to watch Covey or Nova or Detweier or some of those hack relievers? If you've had a few beers you might want to b**** on Twitter. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to spend lots of time searching Twitter.

Edited September 21, 20196 yr by greg775

3 hours ago, bmags said:

What would have happened had they not started a rebuild? 

Record-wise?  They’d definitely would have won more games at the MLB level.  

Not sure what you’re getting at.

18 hours ago, Nardiwashere said:

This is Coop's thing (and has been forever) and it gets tiresome.  He even acts like Garfein is too negative when he goes on White Sox Talk Podcast and Garfein kisses his ass for 45 minutes.

Here's where he has a point- Sox Twitter has taken a super negative and petty turn this year and its gotten just as tiresome.  The Machado thing broke the fanbase. 

The team is in the middle of a rebuild.  I keep reading people say "The team has had losing seasons X years in a row" or "Rick Hahn's record is X" as if that offers some insight.  The team essentially tried to lose the past few years.  In two weeks, that will finally end.  The Sox record in 2017-2019 is largely irrelevant and Rick Hahn's winning percentage doesn't tell much of a story by itself. 

The perfect example of useless negativity- Josh Nelson keeps tweeting every time Kyle Lewis does something positive (with the implication that the Sox should have drafted him).   I guess I understand why bloggers/podcasters do it.  It riles people up and he gets clicks and downloads.  If Zack Collins and the Sox fail, he gets to run around and say "I told you so."  If they end up being great, no one will care to call him out.  If I was trying to make money off of covering the team and I had no access, not many original thoughts, and not much of a personality, I'd probably take the same approach.  

The fan base frustration isn’t just in reaction to the hideous baseball we’ve had to witness the past three years during the rebuild.  

It’s also in reaction to the heinous baseball played in the four years prior to the rebuild, driving the need for the rebuild in the first place. 

The fans are also in negative/skeptical mode since the team continues to extend its playoff drought, a whopping 11 years now since there has been postseason play at 35th and Shields.  

And lastly, there have been all of four playoff games and just one measly playoff win for the White Sox in the 14 years now since the ‘05 World Series.  Just four playoff games over the last 14 years when there’s been a second wild card chance in play, and the team hasn’t even been close to winning that spot!

So many apologies to you that the chorus you hear arising from our fan base isn’t “Sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows everywhere!”.  We’re tired of the losing and simply want to enjoy some winning baseball for a change.    

27 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said:

The fan base frustration isn’t just in reaction to the hideous baseball we’ve had to witness the past three years during the rebuild.  

It’s also in reaction to the heinous baseball played in the four years prior to the rebuild, driving the need for the rebuild in the first place. 

The fans are also in negative/skeptical mode since the team continues to extend its playoff drought, a whopping 11 years now since there has been postseason play at 35th and Shields.  

And lastly, there have been all of four playoff games and just one measly playoff win for the White Sox in the 14 years now since the ‘05 World Series.  Just four playoff games over the last 14 years when there’s been a second wild card chance in play, and the team hasn’t even been close to winning that spot!

So many apologies to you that the chorus you hear arising from our fan base isn’t “Sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows everywhere!”.  We’re tired of the losing and simply want to enjoy some winning baseball for a change.    

This and then some. In addition, even though some players are breaking through this year in a big way, there have been many games this and last year when the team didn't even look like a major league squad. That's hard to take no matter how patient you are.

I have been a Sox fan for decades and here is my biggest frustration: Numerous times it appeared the team appeared to get over the hump and was ready to become an elite franchise. Then there is a bad trade or a key injury. Or Hawk is made GM on some stupid whim. Or there's a strike. Or a white-flag trade. Then it is back to non-contention. So, it isn't just the last few years of a rebuild. It is decades of the team constantly shooting itself in the foot. 

The rebuild is shaping up. But will things really be different? Hey, Coop, you have an answer for that one?

51 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said:

The fan base frustration isn’t just in reaction to the hideous baseball we’ve had to witness the past three years during the rebuild.  

It’s also in reaction to the heinous baseball played in the four years prior to the rebuild, driving the need for the rebuild in the first place. 

The fans are also in negative/skeptical mode since the team continues to extend its playoff drought, a whopping 11 years now since there has been postseason play at 35th and Shields.  

And lastly, there have been all of four playoff games and just one measly playoff win for the White Sox in the 14 years now since the ‘05 World Series.  Just four playoff games over the last 14 years when there’s been a second wild card chance in play, and the team hasn’t even been close to winning that spot!

So many apologies to you that the chorus you hear arising from our fan base isn’t “Sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows everywhere!”.  We’re tired of the losing and simply want to enjoy some winning baseball for a change.    

 

13 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

This and then some. In addition, even though some players are breaking through this year in a big way, there have been many games this and last year when the team didn't even look like a major league squad. That's hard to take no matter how patient you are.

I have been a Sox fan for decades and here is my biggest frustration: Numerous times it appeared the team appeared to get over the hump and was ready to become an elite franchise. Then there is a bad trade or a key injury. Or Hawk is made GM on some stupid whim. Or there's a strike. Or a white-flag trade. Then it is back to non-contention. So, it isn't just the last few years of a rebuild. It is decades of the team constantly shooting itself in the foot. 

The rebuild is shaping up. But will things really be different? Hey, Coop, you have an answer for that one?

Once the rebuild started, I think you need to judge the progress of the rebuild.  The playoff drought is temporarily irrelevant.  They were never making the playoffs the last three years.

Even more irrelevant is the white flag trade or Hawk’s tenure as GM which happened before most players on the team were born.

 

13 hours ago, Nardiwashere said:

Record-wise?  They’d definitely would have won more games at the MLB level.  

Not sure what you’re getting at.

The idea that they cannot be criticized for results because rebuilds take time white washes the reality that the team was in such poor shape after four years under this management that a rebuild was the fastest way to contention with their constraints.

I’m glad they rebuilt because it was the first time under Hahn they made correct strategic play, but it shouldn’t take any GM 8 years to make the playoffs. The details obscure that obvious fact.

37 minutes ago, bmags said:

The idea that they cannot be criticized for results because rebuilds take time white washes the reality that the team was in such poor shape after four years under this management that a rebuild was the fastest way to contention with their constraints.

I’m glad they rebuilt because it was the first time under Hahn they made correct strategic play, but it shouldn’t take any GM 8 years to make the playoffs. The details obscure that obvious fact.

I just don’t see the point in complaining about a playoff drought increasing during the 3rd year of a rebuild you support.  

When they began the rebuild, I accepted the fact that they wouldn’t be in the playoffs in 2017-18 and probably 2019.  It seems unfair to me to say “I support the decision to enter a rebuild, but I reserve the right to b**** about how long it’s taking”

If you had a car that wasn’t running correctly for 8 months and you finally took it to a mechanic who told you repairs would take 4 weeks, would you get progressively angrier at the mechanic each of the four weeks?  And justify it by bringing up instances other mechanics disappointed you in 1985 and 1998?

4 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

I just don’t see the point in complaining about a playoff drought increasing during the 3rd year of a rebuild you support.  

When they began the rebuild, I accepted the fact that they wouldn’t be in the playoffs in 2017-18 and probably 2019.  It seems unfair to me to say “I support the decision to enter a rebuild, but I reserve the right to b**** about how long it’s taking”

If you had a car that wasn’t running correctly for 8 months and you finally took it to a mechanic who told you repairs would take 4 weeks, would you get progressively angrier at the mechanic each of the four weeks?  And justify it by bringing up instances other mechanics disappointed you in 1985 and 1998?

- because everyone in positions of authority during this playoff drought has been promoted. The only person that they saw fit to remove for their part in the ineptitude was Robin Ventura, who wasn’t even technically fired

- Similar issues in free agent decisions, role of international pipeline, player development and amateur drafting have occurred during the last three years as occurred in the prior 4, so while it’s expected to not win many games during rebuild, it is still possible to comment on the process during that time. And because there was no clearing house after the failures of the Sale era, they will not get benefit of the doubt when previous themes keep appearing. 

They were able with high draft picks and trading elite, cheap talent to infuse high end young talent into the org. But as before, it is unseen if there is enough depth internally to support it, and no track record of free agency being a pipeline to support it.

51 minutes ago, bmags said:

- because everyone in positions of authority during this playoff drought has been promoted. The only person that they saw fit to remove for their part in the ineptitude was Robin Ventura, who wasn’t even technically fired

- Similar issues in free agent decisions, role of international pipeline, player development and amateur drafting have occurred during the last three years as occurred in the prior 4, so while it’s expected to not win many games during rebuild, it is still possible to comment on the process during that time. And because there was no clearing house after the failures of the Sale era, they will not get benefit of the doubt when previous themes keep appearing. 

They were able with high draft picks and trading elite, cheap talent to infuse high end young talent into the org. But as before, it is unseen if there is enough depth internally to support it, and no track record of free agency being a pipeline to support it.

Yep all the glaring inadequacies of the organization are still pretty much still there. The only way we resolve it in our heads is seeing the progress of individual players and knowing there's money to be spent. But realistically we know who is in charge and think the chances are slim they can pull this off especially in light of the fact that even if the front office has stayed the same we don't see enough changes in the process to think it can be successful.

If the fan base is negative it's because we are a little more informed on that process. We get to see how the successful teams have done it  However fans will always be fans. There is no more negativity than at any time before. It's just now there are forums to express it instead of just small talk among fans like in the past. People are just using their voices to be heard. This is the message the Sox front office should spread among it's people when they are approached about negativity on social media  but of course they don't because Hahn himself had his 2 cents on the same topic.

Pretty much every time I talk baseball with a baseball fan, they almost universally say, "the Sox are going to be really good pretty soon." Pretty much every time I come on this board, it's total doom and gloom. I'm not sure it's "Sox fans" that are this way. I think it's the board that's this way. 

2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Pretty much every time I talk baseball with a baseball fan, they almost universally say, "the Sox are going to be really good pretty soon." Pretty much every time I come on this board, it's total doom and gloom. I'm not sure it's "Sox fans" that are this way. I think it's the board that's this way. 

If you go on Twitter it's the same as the board. Sox fans are incredibly cynical. They're classically conditioned to expect the worst case scenario with everything. 

Edited September 22, 20196 yr by Jack Parkman

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

If you go on Twitter it's the same as the board. Sox fans are incredibly cynical. They're classically conditioned to expect the worst case scenario with everything. 

People on Twitter hate everything. Twitter is for meat heads, rappers and soccer moms. 

6 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Pretty much every time I talk baseball with a baseball fan, they almost universally say, "the Sox are going to be really good pretty soon." Pretty much every time I come on this board, it's total doom and gloom. I'm not sure it's "Sox fans" that are this way. I think it's the board that's this way. 

I think they will be much improved yes  but so I think they will have more than 2 years straight in the playoffs ? No . Do you I think they will win a World Series in the next 5 years ? I don't really want to say no to that .

2 hours ago, Nardiwashere said:

 

Once the rebuild started, I think you need to judge the progress of the rebuild.  The playoff drought is temporarily irrelevant.  They were never making the playoffs the last three years.

Even more irrelevant is the white flag trade or Hawk’s tenure as GM which happened before most players on the team were born.

 

First of all, history is never irrelevant, whether it is recent or older. Besides that, you missed the whole point of my post. Losing for long periods is frustrating no matter what the circumstances. And I am not willing to put up with using the rebuild as an excuse for long-term losing. 

4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think they will be much improved yes  but so I think they will have more than 2 years straight in the playoffs ? No . Do you I think they will win a World Series in the next 5 years ? I don't really want to say no to that .

I just want them to continue to improve. Next year will tell us a lot. 

3 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

First of all, history is never irrelevant, whether it is recent or older. Besides that, you missed the whole point of my post. Losing for long periods is frustrating no matter what the circumstances. And I am not willing to put up with using the rebuild as an excuse for long-term losing. 

Usually rebuilds happen for 2 reasons: 1. A team is mediocre enough to just miss the playoffs om a regular basis. 2. A previous failed rebuild. 

Coming from a coach who has not sniffed the playoffs in years 

16 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

First of all, history is never irrelevant, whether it is recent or older. Besides that, you missed the whole point of my post. Losing for long periods is frustrating no matter what the circumstances. And I am not willing to put up with using the rebuild as an excuse for long-term losing. 

No.  Hawk being GM for one year in the 80’s is irrelevant.