14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

But thy aren't, so now what?

If you design a system that keeps failing over and over and over again, you don't get mad at the people using the system and insist they do better. You examine the system and find where you have procedural or technical or education or communication failures, because somewhere along the line, you messed up. 

19 minutes ago, Texsox said:

And when they don't they need to be held accountable not told that personal responsibility doesn't matter.

 

Held accountable by who? The police that flat out say they won't enforce the guidelines set by the state governor?

 

https://www.mystateline.com/news/local-news/winnebago-county-sheriff-says-he-will-not-enforce-new-coronavirus-restrictions-aimed-at-bars-and-restaurants/?fbclid=IwAR2dDVwo2-mRREEDCaTV2_JxVgaVd9Ie7gR7qu7VjaduyNteqQqbwl-0NqQ

Nobody likes China, Vietnam... but authoritarian responses (Singapore another solid example) have been among the best. 

(Otoh, can we at least be South Korea, Germany, Australia/NZ?)

Of course, just a strong leader like Russia, Turkey, India, the US or Brazil alone hasn't led to ideal responses, either. 

One common thread, though, is allowing the country's scientific community to lead. 

Edited October 5, 20205 yr by caulfield12

48 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

And my fears have been realized - was worried this is exactly how he would handle this (if it is even real).  

 

His campaign and White House staff are also out there mocking Sen. Harris and Biden for wearing masks and taking precautions.

 

e: this seems irresponsible to me

 

Edited October 5, 20205 yr by StrangeSox

If you have lost a loved one, I can’t even begin to imagine how disrespected you feel reading what these clowns are saying.

And the thing is, Trump is all hopped up on steroids right now. What do they say if a couple of days from now he’s back on Marine One, this time on a stretcher?

14 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If you have lost a loved one, I can’t even begin to imagine how disrespected you feel reading what these clowns are saying.

And the thing is, Trump is all hopped up on steroids right now. What do they say if a couple of days from now he’s back on Marine One, this time on a stretcher?

They will probably say something to the effect of "nobody could have known" like they always do when everyone screams "No!" And they do it anyways 

1 hour ago, Iwritecode said:

Held accountable by who? The police that flat out say they won't enforce the guidelines set by the state governor?

 

https://www.mystateline.com/news/local-news/winnebago-county-sheriff-says-he-will-not-enforce-new-coronavirus-restrictions-aimed-at-bars-and-restaurants/?fbclid=IwAR2dDVwo2-mRREEDCaTV2_JxVgaVd9Ie7gR7qu7VjaduyNteqQqbwl-0NqQ

Would it be better if the police were being responsible?

Would it be better if the people were acting responsible?

2 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

Personal responsibility as the primary mechanism very clearly does not work. A bad plan with people being "responsible," aka doing the things officials say is okay like going to bars and restaurants, is a bad plan that leads to 200,000+ dead. A good plan is one people can't ignore because these sorts of public places aren't open in the first place. We can again look all over the world to find examples of good and bad plans. The good plans don't rely on opening everything up but hoping people are responsible enough to not go do these things.

That you're focused on penalties and punishment rather than proactive prevention really shows that you're still missing the key element, imo. You're focused on indivuals rather than institutions, venues, businesses. 

It all comes down to probabilities and risk assessments. Many people base their risk perception on what leaders and officials say and do. If officials are telling them things like indoor dining are safe, they'll be "responsible" and go do these things. That's why "personal responsibility" can never be step 1 in a public health crisis. People do need to be responsible and follow the rules, but thoes rules need to be responsible. Currently, they are very far from responsible. As a result, we have 40,000 more people every day catching this virus, 500-1000 of which will be killed by it, and 8k or so who will be hospitalized. Every. Single. Day. We've failed. We're still failing.

Maybe you're 99% safe every time you go out, 3-4 times a week. Do that enough, though, and your risk of catching or spreading is going to climb to appreciable numbers. Now have everyone else in the community doing the same. Oops, now you've got yet another hotspot raging uncontrolled. The same story in community after community after community throughout the country. It's pretty clear evidence that we cannot rely on atomized risk assessment and instead must have strong top-down policy and coordination to handle this. 

 

By the way, those numbers in Gillespie County are actually not great. 10 deaths from a population of 25k would be pretty high up there on the deaths/1M if it were it's own country. Like Top-20-Worst-Countries bad. Cases would be Top 30.

 

At the end of the day, we're all living in a country that's still suffering from an unchecked pandemic. Going to eat outdoors is much safer than going indoors, or to bars, or to family gatherings and other higher risk activities. But it's still a higher risk than simply staying home; you know, the personally responsible thing to do. It's a risk that you or someone else will get infected and the pandemic will continue to spread and we'll all keep suffering the consequences indefinitely.

Holding people accountable after the fact doesn't bring 200,000 people and counting back to life.

 

Personal responsibility is necessary but very clearly far from sufficient. The key to this is and always has been and will always be public policy.

The key is people following public policy.

Having a policy that people must wear a mask only works if people put on the mask. 

I'm arguing that not only do we need good policy but we need people to responsibly follow the policy. Without people following the policy nothing changes. 

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Would it be better if the police were being responsible?

Would it be better if the people were acting responsible?

Why are we giving this equal treatment? People aren't acting responsibly.  They won't act responsibly.  We don't have this option as a society, because people aren't willing.  We as a society have to go to the next step if we want to stop people from dying. 

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Why are we giving this equal treatment? People aren't acting responsibly.  They won't act responsibly.  We don't have this option as a society, because people aren't willing.  We as a society have to go to the next step if we want to stop people from dying. 

Will people have to be responsible and follow the next step?

And equal treatment to what? I keep saying whatever plan you want it needs people to be responsible and follow the plan. 

 

10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Will people have to be responsible and follow the next step?

And equal treatment to what? I keep saying whatever plan you want it needs people to be responsible and follow the plan. 

 

If only 35-40% of police are trying to enforce a policy, that will also fail.   Just like if half the teachers hold students accountable and the other half gives them free reign to do whatever they want, what will happen to the overall discipline in that school? The exact same thing is happening on a macro scale across the entire country. 

Edited October 5, 20205 yr by caulfield12

5 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Will people have to be responsible and follow the next step?

And equal treatment to what? I keep saying whatever plan you want it needs people to be responsible and follow the plan. 

 

If your plan is based on responsibility,  it has already failed. Hence lockdowns.

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

If your plan is based on responsibility,  it has already failed. Hence lockdowns.

First off I've offered no plan. The only point I've tried to make is any plan will fail if people aren't responsible and follow it. 

If the police aren't responsible and follow it, it fails. If people won't follow it, it fails. 

If lockdowns are the plan I believe people need to be responsible and follow the lockdowns. Whatever plan you want, my point will be great, people need to responsibly follow the plan. We're doomed if people are irresponsible.

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If only 35-40% of police are trying to enforce a policy, that will also fail.   Just like if half the teachers hold students accountable and the other half gives them free reign to do whatever they want, what will happen to the overall discipline in that school? The exact same thing is happening on a macro scale with the entire country. 

Exactly. Everyone must be responsible or the system fails. Seems simple to me. 

I think y'all believe I'm saying something I'm not. I must not be clear. 

Whatever plan you want, actions are what makes the difference. Irresponsible people will cause a great plan to fail. We need everyone from elected officials to Joe Sixpack to be responsible. 

That's not a policy or plan. It's a strategy to implement whatever plan you want. I can't even comprehend that as any kind of plan and at least in my corner of the globe no entity has that as a policy. 

We're going to continue to have this pandemic as long as we have irresponsible people. 

4 hours ago, Tony said:

In summary, the President of the United States had to be rushed to the hospital for a virus and received care that 99.99% of Americans can’t receive, and is now somehow...endorsing getting Corona Virus as he feels better AFTER he got it. 

This may be the dumbest, most dangerous tweet in his whole presidency.  Anyone who voted for this idiot con-artist should be embarrassed for the rest of their lives.

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This may be the dumbest, most dangerous tweet in his whole presidency.  Anyone who voted for this idiot con-artist should be embarrassed for the rest of their lives.

To go along with the dumbest thing he has done when he returned to the White House and took off his mask. I seriously don't know what he is thinking, but it doesn't get any dumber than this. The leadership just isn't there and that is putting it mildly. This is more than dumb. This is insane.

5 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

To go along with the dumbest thing he has done when he returned to the White House and took off his mask. I seriously don't know what he is thinking, but it doesn't get any dumber than this. The leadership just isn't there and that is putting it mildly. This is more than dumb. This is insane.

I’m afraid it’s going to take someone in his camp dying for his base to realize just dumb these actions are.

18 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

To go along with the dumbest thing he has done when he returned to the White House and took off his mask. I seriously don't know what he is thinking, but it doesn't get any dumber than this. The leadership just isn't there and that is putting it mildly. This is more than dumb. This is insane.

It was to film a commercial

 

 

12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m afraid it’s going to take someone in his camp dying for his base to realize just dumb these actions are.

Hermann Cain already died from one of his summer rallies.

 

His Twitter account lives on, saying covid is nbd

 

 

3 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Hermann Cain already died from one of his summer rallies.

 

His Twitter account lives on, saying covid is nbd

I meant someone directly tied to this recent outbreak, but maybe that’s not enough.

Unless it's him personally he doesn't give a single shit

 

 

Maybe Ivanka but that's it

 

This will get people killed. Cool.

 

19 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m afraid it’s going to take someone in his camp dying for his base to realize just dumb these actions are.

The cult always has someone else to blame. It could be Jonestown part 2, and they'd blame Obama even if Trump himself was leading the Covid Kegstands.

For guy who feels better than he has in 20 years, he certainly looked like he was gasping for breath waiting for the chopper to leave.