December 10, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: My favorite is he'll just glance over these actual facts because his eyes saw what they saw lol. It's really bizarre. McCann certainly does some things better than Grandal, I don't think anyone would deny that. But claiming that "the data" shows he's better offensively, or that he doesn't register any catchers interference errors, is either just straight up lying for no reason or a complete inability to look at even the most basic of numbers
December 10, 20205 yr 10 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: It's really bizarre. McCann certainly does some things better than Grandal, I don't think anyone would deny that. But claiming that "the data" shows he's better offensively, or that he doesn't register any catchers interference errors, is either just straight up lying for no reason or a complete inability to look at even the most basic of numbers I must have been misrembering the catcher interferences I didn’t look it up. My mistake
December 10, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, Vulture said: I must have been misrembering the catcher interferences I didn’t look it up. My mistake No worries. Just not really sure where that leaves you, if you'd agree that Grandal is better offensively and McCann is the one who commits the interference errors. My opinion is that McCann calls better games, and is slightly better when it comes to avoiding bonehead errors like dropping pop-ups and whatnot (I say slightly because of the catcher's interferences and because he'll drop one every now and then himself, just not as frequently as Grandal). But I think Grandal is better offensively and is a better framer, which is why I think he's superior overall
December 10, 20205 yr 4 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: No worries. Just not really sure where that leaves you, if you'd agree that Grandal is better offensively and McCann is the one who commits the interference errors. My opinion is that McCann calls better games, and is slightly better when it comes to avoiding bonehead errors like dropping pop-ups and whatnot (I say slightly because of the catcher's interferences and because he'll drop one every now and then himself, just not as frequently as Grandal). But I think Grandal is better offensively and is a better framer, which is why I think he's superior overall I still don’t think Grandal is better offensively significantly enough at this point (118+ vs 114) or that three catcher interferences in regular season vs one in playoffs at crucial juncture is enough to make up the difference between the more important aspect of catching AND the value returned in trading Grandal AND the difference in salary 2.82 cera vs 4.74 giolito alone can’t account for that difference when that is .66 better than giolitos overall era and McCann caught rookies at a higher rate while Grandal had more starts with the pitcher who had by far the best era on the staff this holds over from ‘19 as well when Grandal had 4.62 cera compared to 3.87 for other milwaukee catchers while McCann was again over a run better than other catchers for sox 4.40 vs 5.52 with gio pitching 12% of innings pitched, he alone can’t account for that difference
December 10, 20205 yr Defensive war since ‘19: mccann 1.7 grandal -0.5 Total mccann 4.9 grandal 3.0 Projected salary mccann 10.5 grandal 18.5 return for loss of player mccann none grandal ? Edited December 10, 20205 yr by Vulture
December 10, 20205 yr 24 minutes ago, Vulture said: Defensive war since ‘19: mccann 1.7 grandal -0.5 Total mccann 4.9 grandal 3.0 Projected salary mccann 10.5 grandal 18.5 return for loss of player mccann none grandal ? Are you cherry picking 2019 because the year before that McCann had a. 581 ops?
December 10, 20205 yr 4 minutes ago, SoxFanForever said: Are you cherry picking 2019 because the year before that McCann had a. 581 ops? ‘19-20 is the cited period. Citing the most recent period equally isn’t cherry picking Edited December 10, 20205 yr by Vulture
December 10, 20205 yr 9 minutes ago, SoxFanForever said: Are you cherry picking 2019 because the year before that McCann had a. 581 ops? Hes also using b-ref defensive WAR which doesn't account for framing.
December 10, 20205 yr 6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Hes also using b-ref defensive WAR which doesn't account for framing. You’ve already been proved wrong on that claim. At least I actually read the responses that show when I’m wrong and subsequently acknowledge them. Previously you claimed in another argument you only used FAngraphs war for pitchers anyway. Edited December 10, 20205 yr by Vulture
December 10, 20205 yr Grandal was tied for 4th among catchers, with McCann, in DRS in 2020. In fangraphs defensive rankings grandal ranked 2nd, mccann 12th. In 2019, mccann ranked 51st out of alpl catchers in fangraphs rankings, grandal was 4th. That year mccann did edge out grandal in DRS (2, 0).
December 10, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, Vulture said: You’ve already been proved wrong on that claim. At least I actually read the responses that show when I’m wrong and subsequently acknowledge them. Previously you claimed in another argument you only used FAngraphs war for pitchers anyway. Wrong on what claim? Bref uses framing in their DRS calculation somewhere not their defensive WAR calculations. https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_comparison.shtml
December 10, 20205 yr 10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Wrong on what claim? Bref uses framing in their DRS calculation somewhere not their defensive WAR calculations. https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_comparison.shtml On the claim that bref doesn’t use framing in their calculation. Framing is used in their drs calculation. Drs is used in war calculation. Therefore framing is used in their war calculation. there’s obviously something wrong with their equations if a pitcher with an era+ of 123 in 25% more innings of work is given half the war of a pitcher with a 80+, which is replacement level, as was the case in your Loaiza Lynn comparison in which you claimed you used bref for batters.
December 10, 20205 yr 34 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Wrong on what claim? Bref uses framing in their DRS calculation somewhere not their defensive WAR calculations. https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_comparison.shtml Did you even read the link you provided? “Uses measures for catcher defense including blocking pitches and framing: Fangraphs :yes on blocking, but no on framing bref: yes, DRS” looks like you’ve got it backwards
December 10, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, Vulture said: Defensive war since ‘19: mccann 1.7 grandal -0.5 Total mccann 4.9 grandal 3.0 Projected salary mccann 10.5 grandal 18.5 return for loss of player mccann none grandal ? What about career seasons with an OPS+ over 100? McCann 2 Grandal 9
December 10, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, Vulture said: Did you even read the link you provided? “Uses measures for catcher defense including blocking pitches and framing: Fangraphs :yes on blocking, but no on framing bref: yes, DRS” looks like you’ve got it backwards Yes, DRS, not dWAR.
December 10, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said: What about career seasons with an OPS+ over 100? McCann 2 Grandal 9 I don’t disagree. three or more seasons ago grandal was the better catcher
December 10, 20205 yr 3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Yes, DRS, not dWAR. I’m quoting the graph you linked that clearly states fangraphs war calculation does not take framing into account and bref does via its inclusion of drs in its war equation. where it says “uses measures...” that is referring to war calculations Edited December 10, 20205 yr by Vulture
December 10, 20205 yr Just now, Vulture said: I don’t disagree. three or more seasons ago grandal was the better catcher So in 2019 one catcher was viewed as a top 3 catcher in baseball and the other was viewed as an all star for the first half of the year and then a flame out. One had an OPS+ of 119 in 2019 and the other 108 after a scorching hot start to 2019.
December 10, 20205 yr 2 minutes ago, Vulture said: I’m quoting the graph you linked that clearly states fangraphs war calculation does not take framing into account and bref does via its inclusion of drs in its war equation. where it says “uses measures...” that is referring to war calculations fWAR captures framing, bWAR does not
December 10, 20205 yr Just now, Vulture said: I’m quoting the graph you linked that clearly states fangraphs war calculation does not take framing into account and bref does via its inclusion of drs in its war equation I honestly think you have to be trolling me by now. On Bref - you can hover over the stat and it will tell you what it includes. When you hover over Rdrs (Defensive runs saved) it tells you it specifically INCLUDES framing. When you hover over dWAR it SPECIFICALLY states it uses the OLD DRS calculation that DOES NOT include framing. Can you please stop quoting me now, my head is starting to hurt. Regarding fangraphs, I AM NOT citing Fangraphs fWAR. I am specifically citing their DEF rating which includes framing. Jaysus christ man. There is no gotcha moment here; you just simply do not even understanding what you're citing.
December 10, 20205 yr Just now, Chicago White Sox said: fWAR captures framing, bWAR does not Not according to the graph that look at ray linked to. It clearly states that fangraphs war calculations do not include measures for framing
December 10, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said: fWAR captures framing, bWAR does not bWAR now captures framing; because instead of taking their dWAR rating they now use a DRS calculation in their WAR calculation. This was updated recently. The problem is this guy is citing dWAR from B-Ref and doesn't understand that calculation does NOT include framing and does not use the updated DRS calculation that does include framing. I honestly get that this shit can be complicated, but Jeeze man to constantly tell me I'm wrong over and over when the guy is just misunderstanding is wild stuff ha.
December 10, 20205 yr Just now, Vulture said: Not according to the graph that look at ray linked to. It clearly states that fangraphs war calculations do not include measures for framing That table is wrong or outdated then.
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