Official: McCann is a Met, $40/4 years

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

16 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Isn’t it more delusional to ignore everything save pitch framing is in mccanns favor with only rebuttals being hypotheticals. Not much of a stretch to imagine Sox would be better off with McCann at eight million per year less plus a player acquired for grandal rather than grandal

Mccann made more errors last year, and had more catchers interferences, in 20ish games behind the plate than any catcher should have in a year. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

11 minutes ago, Vulture said:

If a catcher doesn’t have any effect on pitchers success why did you bring up the fact relative to grandal? you’re claim was pitchers perform better with grandal according to a study you performed. The fact Sox pitchers have been far better with McCann than grandal is therefore obviously relevant to your claim

No, they perform better because he steals more strikes than any catcher in the game consistently. Stealing strikes literally directly relates to reducing expected runs.

And no one should analyze catcher ERA over the span of a 60 game season, and doing so is simply distroting statistics to fit a narrative.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Vulture]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, they perform better because he steals more strikes than any catcher in the game consistently. Stealing strikes literally directly relates to reducing expected runs.

If pitchers that perform better with McCann should get new jobs then why shouldn’t pitchers who perform better with grandal do the same? Not surprised you don’t see the glaring contradiction in your argument, but it is there none the less. Fact is pitchers have also performed better with McCann behind the plate through out his career and vastly so ‘20. No one claimed giolito couldn’t be successful with another catcher that’s just a blatant strawman you keep pounding on

Edited December 10, 2020 by Vulture

[SonofaRoache]

24 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Isn’t it more delusional to ignore everything save pitch framing is in mccanns favor with only rebuttals being hypotheticals. Not much of a stretch to imagine Sox would be better off with McCann at eight million per year less plus a player acquired for grandal rather than grandal

Is McCann only making 8 per year? And have you factored in McCann was good for half of 2019 and for less than 60 games this year? That is not even one full season worth of time. McCann can be argued as being a good player that has finally figured it out, but better than Grandal? No one is buying that at the moment. 

[South Side Hit Men]

Just now, SonofaRoache said:

Is McCann only making 8 per year? And have you factored in McCann was good for half of 2019 and for less than 60 games this year? That is not even one full season worth of time. McCann can be argued as being a good player that has finally figured it out, but better than Grandal? No one is buying that at the moment. 

Having a legitimate catcher who can catch 60 games, leaving Grandal to catch 100 + 30/40 1B/DH games is far more valuable than anything Eaton can or will provide. Unless Tony is going to add Molina (and Wainwright) as his next two signings as White Sox President/GM.

[Vulture]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

Is McCann only making 8 per year? And have you factored in McCann was good for half of 2019 and for less than 60 games this year? That is not even one full season worth of time. McCann can be argued as being a good player that has finally figured it out, but better than Grandal? No one is buying that at the moment. 

Eight million less would be 10.5. Post all star break is 40 percent of season. If McCann is only good for first 60% then so is grandal

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

5 minutes ago, Vulture said:

If pitchers that perform better with McCann should get new jobs then why shouldn’t pitchers who perform better with grandal do the same? Not surprised you don’t see the glaring contradiction in your argument, but it is there none the less. Fact is pitchers have also performed better with McCann behind the plate through out his career and vastly so ‘20. No one claimed giolito couldn’t be successful with another catcher that’s just a blatant strawman you keep pounding on

What?

And show me these stats. I laid out the stats before. All you've done is say the same is true for McCann. 

There's no contradiction. You've been intellectually dishonest throughout this entire conversation; going as far as to say mccann has been statistically better offensively when it's an easily refutable fallacy. 

[Vulture]

4 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Is McCann only making 8 per year? And have you factored in McCann was good for half of 2019 and for less than 60 games this year? That is not even one full season worth of time. McCann can be argued as being a good player that has finally figured it out, but better than Grandal? No one is buying that at the moment. 

And my claim is Sox would be better with McCann AND player acquired for Grandal than Grandal

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Vulture said:

And my claim is Sox would be better with McCann AND player acquired for Grandal than Grandal

There's literally nothing worse than hypotheticals with no actual basis to support the conclusion. 

[Vulture]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What?

And show me these stats. I laid out the stats before. All you've done is say the same is true for McCann. 

There's no contradiction. You've been intellectually dishonest throughout this entire conversation; going as far as to say mccann has been statistically better offensively when it's an easily refutable fallacy. 

Look at CERA for McCann on fan trax then compare. McCann was 1.5 runs better than grandal and better than team era through this career. You didn’t show your data proving grandal either.

if you can’t see the contradiction in claiming pitchers perform better with grandal on the mound and discounting that pitchers perform better with McCann including compared to grandal I don’t know what to tell you

Edited December 10, 2020 by Vulture

[SonofaRoache]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

And my claim is Sox would be better with McCann AND player acquired for Grandal than Grandal

But when Grandal was signed McCann was nose diving to the finish line. Nothing wrong with signing a top 3 catcher in baseball under those circumstances. 

[SonofaRoache]

6 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Having a legitimate catcher who can catch 60 games, leaving Grandal to catch 100 + 30/40 1B/DH games is far more valuable than anything Eaton can or will provide. Unless Tony is going to add Molina (and Wainwright) as his next two signings as White Sox President/GM.

Maybe McCann wanted to be a full time starter. 

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Look at CERA for McCann on fan trax then compare. McCann was 1.5 runs better than grandal and better than team era through this career. You didn’t show your data proving grandal either

It helped that he was Giolito's personal catcher. I am guessing his CERA goes up and Grandal's goes down if they caught the games the other one caught.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Dick Allen

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Look at CERA for McCann on fan trax then compare. McCann was 1.5 runs better than grandal and better than team era through this career. You didn’t show your data proving grandal either

Again, these analysis take much more than surface level stats. Ill try and find my post, but you need to look at each pitchers individual performance. Of course a teams starting catcher is more likely to have an era lower than the team era because he tends to catch the BETTER pitchers on the team.

And stop using a 60 game sample to draw your conclusions for catcher impact. Its just dishonest. Last year McCann caught the best pitcher on the team the majority of his starts. Of course he's gonna be better in that area. Jaysus.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Vulture]

24 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Mccann made more errors last year, and had more catchers interferences, in 20ish games behind the plate than any catcher should have in a year. 

I think you’re thinking of grandal with the catcher interferences including the one that loaded the bases in the playoffs. I personally witnessed three catcher interferences from grandal which is about as many as I’ve seen from one catcher

[Vulture]

8 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

But when Grandal was signed McCann was nose diving to the finish line. Nothing wrong with signing a top 3 catcher in baseball under those circumstances. 

So was grandal then. .396 slugging post break in ‘19

[Vulture]

9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Again, these analysis take much more than surface level stats. Ill try and find my post, but you need to look at each pitchers individual performance. Of course a teams starting catcher is more likely to have an era lower than the team era because he tends to catch the BETTER pitchers on the team.

And stop using a 60 game sample to draw your conclusions for catcher impact. Its just dishonest. Last year McCann caught the best pitcher on the team the majority of his starts. Of course he's gonna be better in that area. Jaysus.

Keuchel had 1.5 better era than giolito and McCann also caught majority of rookie starts.

again if the starter is “of course” going to have better stats then why is it relevant to grandal in your argument but not McCann in mine?  Not to mention that is directly contradicted by McCann/grandal situation. Might as well not bother posting if that is your argument because if your claim above holds true then your analysis is irrelevant anyway

Edited December 10, 2020 by Vulture

[Jose Abreu]

6 minutes ago, Vulture said:

I think you’re thinking of grandal with the catcher interferences including the one that loaded the bases in the playoffs. I personally witnessed three catcher interferences from grandal which is about as many as I’ve seen from one catcher

A quick look at Baseball-Reference shows that McCann had 3 catchers interferences during the regular season and Grandal had 0. Every single argument you're making is either completely backwards or just your own opinion 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, Vulture said:

I think you’re thinking of grandal with the catcher interferences including the one that loaded the bases in the playoffs. I personally witnessed three catcher interferences from grandal which is about as many as I’ve seen from one catcher

No, because grandal had zero. Listen man, im always happy to have baseball discussions pertaining things I dont agree on but you're just being dishonest at this point and its a waste of time. Have a good one. 

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Keuchel had 1.5 better era than giolito and McCann also caught majority of rookie starts.

again if the starter is “of course” going to have better stats then why is it relevant to grandal in your argument but not McCann in mine?  Not to mention that is directly contradicted by McCann/grandal situation. Might as well not bother posting if that is your argument because if your claim above holds true then your analysis is irrelevant anyway

He is a fucking catcher. He isn’t going to make a 2 run difference a game. 

[Dick Allen]

If you read Soxtalk the AL MVP probably should be James McCann. The NL MVP probably should be Joc Pederson.

[fathom]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

If you read Soxtalk the AL MVP probably should be James McCann. The NL MVP probably should be Joc Pederson.

AL CY:  Dane Dunning

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Keuchel had 1.5 better era than giolito and McCann also caught majority of rookie starts.

again if the starter is “of course” going to have better stats then why is it relevant to grandal in your argument but not McCann in mine?  Not to mention that is directly contradicted by McCann/grandal situation. Might as well not bother posting if that is your argument because if your claim above holds true then your analysis is irrelevant anyway

I pointed out why it was relevant, because Grandal didn't get to catch the best pitcher of this generation because he had a PERSONAL catcher and despite that, the dodgers pitchers in total still performed better with grandal catching over the duration of his time there.

Listen, im one who thinks grandal is slightly overrated. I've made that argument plenty but hes better than James mccann and over the duration of his deal I dont think it'll even be all that close. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

A quick look at Baseball-Reference shows that McCann had 3 catchers interferences during the regular season and Grandal had 0. Every single argument you're making is either completely backwards or just your own opinion 

My favorite is he'll just glance over these actual facts because his eyes saw what they saw lol.

[Vulture]

I guess I was slightly off on offensive numbers 118 ops+ vs 114. Still not much of a difference or stretch to conclude that if Sox traded grandal for anything close to fair value that they still would be better off with that player plus a younger cheaper catcher Sox pitchers have stated a clear preference for.