1 hour ago, bmags said:

I have been so bummed about losing Caruso and Ball I’ve been mostly it’s watching the first quarters.

Its crazy how packed the East is. I just really don’t want to be in the play in.

It has also just destroyed my motivation for a big trade.

However if PWilliams hits, then suddenly you have Dosunmu and Him as really decent young talent.

I know development isn’t linear, but seeing Ayo grow up before our eyes and contribute big as a fill-in starter gives me even less hope that PWill becomes anything more than a guy.  Usually kids show flashes like Ayo has or a kid like Kuminga has for GSW, but I’m failing to remember Williams ever do anything on the court that made me stop and say wow.  

Edited February 2, 20224 yr by Tnetennba

22 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I know development isn’t linear, but seeing Ayo grow up before our eyes and contribute big as a fill-in starter gives me even less hope that PWill becomes anything more than a guy.  Usually kids show flashes like Ayo has or a kid like Kuminga has for GSW, but I’m failing to remember Williams ever do anything on the court that made me stop and say wow.  

Williams as the youngest player in the league last year and had this game against the Nets while showing other flashes throughout the season.

And in defensive metrics, he had 2.2 defensive win shares and a 0.81 DBPM while drawing the best players on the other team (LeBron, Giannis, etc.) as basically the only defensive player on the team besides Thad Young and, again, the youngest player in the league.

Those aren't the end all be all, but Ayo has 0.8 (season isn't done) and -0.1 right now. Ayo' DBPM is 100% being dragged down by being the best defensive player at the moment surrounded by Zach, DeMar and Vuc, but the counter point is Pat was out there with Zach, Coby, and Lauri/Vuc. Ayo's defense is off the charts, so this should tell you what Pat was doing last year, on the charts.

Then there's this:

Pat doesn't stuff the sheet, but if AKME is holding onto him as tightly as they are, you should trust them.

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

I know development isn’t linear, but seeing Ayo grow up before our eyes and contribute big as a fill-in starter gives me even less hope that PWill becomes anything more than a guy.  Usually kids show flashes like Ayo has or a kid like Kuminga has for GSW, but I’m failing to remember Williams ever do anything on the court that made me stop and say wow.  

Ayo is 2 years older than Patrick Williams.

Honestly wendell carter should cause us all to pause a bit. Like Patrick Williams, Wendell was the youngest player drafted. He looked timid and lost, and now in his 4th season (age 22), he's putting together a closer package to what we thought. He's shooting 4x as many 3s and hitting 34% which is fine for his position. He's up to 13 and 10. 

Pat obviously we want more than that, but he is y o u n g and just got screwed out of his second season.

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Honestly wendell carter should cause us all to pause a bit. Like Patrick Williams, Wendell was the youngest player drafted. He looked timid and lost, and now in his 4th season (age 22), he's putting together a closer package to what we thought. He's shooting 4x as many 3s and hitting 34% which is fine for his position. He's up to 13 and 10. 

Pat obviously we want more than that, but he is y o u n g and just got screwed out of his second season.

Plus, to add to all the defensive stuff I mentioned, he were his shooting splits: .483/.391/.728. TS% of .562%

Not amazing, but here were Zach's as a 19 year old: .422/.341/.842. TS% of .515

I don't expect Pat to turn into a Zach shooter (he's best player in the league if he does), that context is needed since he was playing a lot of SF last year.

1 hour ago, Quin said:

Pat doesn't stuff the sheet, but if AKME is holding onto him as tightly as they are, you should trust them.

I hated the pick and feel like they fell in love with workout vids, so my trust in them as far as Pat goes is zero.  It's their one big swing and miss IMO.

Those are some nice highlights, but nothing about them screams special to me.  One good game on a bad team vs the Nets?  How many games was he completely invisible on the court in all of those entitlement minutes?  At some point age becomes an excuse.  Plenty of kids have shown they have something special at 19.  The lack of motor, the timid play, the lack of elite athleticism, the poor handle, the painfully slow needs to be wide open to get it off 3 point shot.  None of that says special to me.  I'm not saying he can't turn himself into a useful 3 & D PF, but a franchise cornerstone?  I just don't see it.

Bulls are talking trade with the Celtics for Dennis Schroder. It'd be Troy Brown and a 2nd round pick for Schroder. With our lack of guards right now, it might not be a terrible deal. Schroder isn't making that much money this year and if you get him, that'll also allow you to shop Coby White for a 4. 

7 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Bulls are talking trade with the Celtics for Dennis Schroder. It'd be Troy Brown and a 2nd round pick for Schroder. With our lack of guards right now, it might not be a terrible deal. Schroder isn't making that much money this year and if you get him, that'll also allow you to shop Coby White for a 4. 

I don't have any issue with that deal.  You aren't giving up any long term piece.  

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

I don't have any issue with that deal.  You aren't giving up any long term piece.  

He's played under Donovan. He has a lot of flaws, but he's a much better piece than Troy Brown Jr. The Bulls also need another ball handler right now, which is something that Schroder provides. 

2 minutes ago, chw42 said:

He's played under Donovan. He has a lot of flaws, but he's a much better piece than Troy Brown Jr. The Bulls also need another ball handler right now, which is something that Schroder provides. 

Yeah - I was going to say - Donovan is familiar with him and he ultimately makes them better.  

18 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I hated the pick and feel like they fell in love with workout vids, so my trust in them as far as Pat goes is zero.  It's their one big swing and miss IMO.

Those are some nice highlights, but nothing about them screams special to me.  One good game on a bad team vs the Nets?  How many games was he completely invisible on the court in all of those entitlement minutes?  At some point age becomes an excuse.  Plenty of kids have shown they have something special at 19.  The lack of motor, the timid play, the lack of elite athleticism, the poor handle, the painfully slow needs to be wide open to get it off 3 point shot.  None of that says special to me.  I'm not saying he can't turn himself into a useful 3 & D PF, but a franchise cornerstone?  I just don't see it.

If you want to go look at last year's NBA thread, I loved Kuminga. Still do. He's shooting worse than Pat did last year and has worse advanced stats. It sounds like you hated the pick from the get go, so of course you're going to look at the negatives and not the positives.

The lack of motor is wack though. You don't play defense like he did without a motor. Just cause he's not screaming like Joakim/Taj and timid on offense doesn't mean he doesn't have a motor.

14 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Bulls are talking trade with the Celtics for Dennis Schroder. It'd be Troy Brown and a 2nd round pick for Schroder. With our lack of guards right now, it might not be a terrible deal. Schroder isn't making that much money this year and if you get him, that'll also allow you to shop Coby White for a 4. 

Schroeder helps the 2nd unit more than TBJ does, I'd be down.

If the Bulls trade for Schroeder, they're definitely moving Coby for a PF.

Kings want a first-rounder for Barnes, who knows if Portland pick is enough.

1 minute ago, Quin said:

If the Bulls trade for Schroeder, they're definitely moving Coby for a PF.

Kings want a first-rounder for Barnes, who knows if Portland pick is enough.

The fact that they're looking to trade White for a good PF is kind of what makes this Schroder rumor exciting. Coby's nice, but he's kind of fallen back down to earth after his little hot streak. He's just a very streaky player in general and I really don't see him as anything more than a 6th man off the bench that can get you points in a hurry. 

1 minute ago, Quin said:

If you want to go look at last year's NBA thread, I loved Kuminga. Still do. He's shooting worse than Pat did last year and has worse advanced stats. It sounds like you hated the pick from the get go, so of course you're going to look at the negatives and not the positives.

The lack of motor is wack though. You don't play defense like he did without a motor. Just cause he's not screaming like Joakim/Taj and timid on offense doesn't mean he doesn't have a motor.

I fully admit that I think Pat was a reach at 4 and a waste of a top 5 pick.  I wanted Ball or a trade down.  Yes I am negatively biased.  I watched almost every Bulls game last season and tried to be open minded about the kid.  But every game I came away scratching my head as to what people were raving about.  I don't see it.  Sadly this lost year really throws a monkey wrench in his development and what little hope I had for him went out the window.  Now I'm of the mind that whatever his development path is it probably doesn't align with the trajectory of this team.  Until he can actually get on the court and make a meaningful impact on the game every game I don't have high hopes for him.

9 minutes ago, Quin said:

If the Bulls trade for Schroeder, they're definitely moving Coby for a PF.

Kings want a first-rounder for Barnes, who knows if Portland pick is enough.

I would agree with this as well.  They probably don't want trade Coby without replacing his contributions off the bench.  Schroeder seems capable enough, and allows them to move Coby for some much needed size & athleticism. 

2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I fully admit that I think Pat was a reach at 4 and a waste of a top 5 pick.  I wanted Ball or a trade down.  Yes I am negatively biased.  I watched almost every Bulls game last season and tried to be open minded about the kid.  But every game I came away scratching my head as to what people were raving about.  I don't see it.  Sadly this lost year really throws a monkey wrench in his development and what little hope I had for him went out the window.  Now I'm of the mind that whatever his development path is it probably doesn't align with the trajectory of this team.  Until he can actually get on the court and make a meaningful impact on the game every game I don't have high hopes for him.

I feel the need to say that even though I disagree, I respect this opinion.

I think he, Ayo and Ball (who is only 2 years older than Ayo) are gonna make a nasty defensive trio for the Bulls in the future as Zach ages.

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

I feel the need to say that even though I disagree, I respect this opinion.

I think he, Ayo and Ball (who is only 2 years older than Ayo) are gonna make a nasty defensive trio for the Bulls in the future as Zach ages.

I honestly hope I am completely wrong about Pat.  If he turns into a monster I will be the first to admit I was dead wrong.  I want him to be as good as everyone seems to think he can be.  But I am yet to see convincing evidence that points to that happening.  And he's just sitting in limbo waiting for his body to heal before he can make any forward progress.  It sucks.

Schroeder for TBJ then Coby for a PF would be a huge win. Schroeder fits in to what the Bulls do defensively and really there's not much of a drop off offensively. 

 

As for Williams, I think it's fairly obvious that all's he gotta do is learn to be more aggressive, and I think that's something that can and will happen. 

No surprise here. 

The lack of size hurt this game. Same for DeMar's end of game tunnel vision.

 

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

The lack of size hurt this game. Same for DeMar's end of game tunnel vision.

 

And Ayo’s turnovers 

39 minutes ago, fathom said:

And Ayo’s turnovers 

I wish he slowed down a bit on that last one. 

That was a frustrating loss. 

Still a little upset they didn't retire his number on Joakim night with all of his teammates, the past stars, etc. in the house.