16 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Lovie was an okay/average coach by league standards. Evaluating Lovie(and Cutler btw) against other Bears coaches/QBs makes them seem better than they were. Evaluate players and coaches by how they compare to their peers. Cutler was an average to slightly below average QB and Lovie was an average to slightly below average coach. 

Lovie was nothing without Urlacher, Briggs and Tillman

Lovie took a team QBd by Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl. Pretty, pretty, pretty good. Belicheck wasn't much without great players. He got fired in Cleveland. Until the Bears have a consistently good QB, they will not be consistent winners, no matter who is coaching them.

One good sign the Bears haven't fired Nagy yet even if it means perhaps falling behind the Jacksonville pursuit, if not eventually a few others, is if they are keeping Pace in his current role, there is no reason not to fire Nagy now and get moving on the future. But if Pace isn't going to be here, it makes no sense other than showing the fans he is unacceptable to fire him now if the guy who is hiring the new coach isn't in the building.  Now you could argue there is no reason that person isn't in the building.

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Lovie took a team QBd by Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl. Pretty, pretty, pretty good. Belicheck wasn't much without great players. He got fired in Cleveland. Until the Bears have a consistently good QB, they will not be consistent winners, no matter who is coaching them.

The NFC had 2 teams that won more than 9 games that year. It was being the best of mediocre teams.  

Lovie and Angelo should have been fired after the 2009 season. 

Edited December 28, 20214 yr by Jack Parkman

39 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I am also missing your point.  Is the third best head coach in your lifetime some sort of line of respect?  Do you think, because you don't believe they will hire better after this, that he should be retained?

Oh god no, he needs to move on. Actually everyone including George should go.  Your post made it look like Nagy is the worst coach of George’s era and actually he’s the best that Geo hired. As sad as that is. 

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

Oh god no, he needs to move on. Actually everyone including George should go.  Your post made it look like Nagy is the worst coach of George’s era and actually he’s the best that Geo hired. As sad as that is. 

No my post is saying that he is just king shit of poop mountain ( @hi8is approval pending)

Also, going back to the Cutler trade, think about how many 1st rounders the Bears have traded over the last decade. 

2009, 2010, 2019, 2020, 2022. That's a lot of talent they gave up for basically nothing. 

Just now, Kyyle23 said:

No my post is saying that he is just king shit of poop mountain ( @hi8is approval pending)

Exactly what I was saying.

I’m just pessimistic that the next one will be any better. 

11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

One good sign the Bears haven't fired Nagy yet even if it means perhaps falling behind the Jacksonville pursuit, if not eventually a few others, is if they are keeping Pace in his current role, there is no reason not to fire Nagy now and get moving on the future. But if Pace isn't going to be here, it makes no sense other than showing the fans he is unacceptable to fire him now if the guy who is hiring the new coach isn't in the building.  Now you could argue there is no reason that person isn't in the building.

Truer words have never been said.  

16 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Lovie took a team QBd by Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl. Pretty, pretty, pretty good. Belicheck wasn't much without great players. He got fired in Cleveland. Until the Bears have a consistently good QB, they will not be consistent winners, no matter who is coaching them.

Belichick is doing a great job this year. His defenses are still top notch even since Brady left. 

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Belichick is doing a great job this year. His defenses are still top notch even since Brady left. 

They are 9-6, so using your previous post, mediocre. Lovie got fired after going 10-6. That didn't make the playoffs, so, again, using your standard, the NFC must have been stacked with great teams that year if 10-6 doesn't get you to the postseason.

Edited December 28, 20214 yr by Dick Allen

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

They are 9-6, so using your previous post, mediocre.

Let's see how Mac Jones turns out. 

But yes, BB has been mediocre without Brady. 

Edited December 28, 20214 yr by Jack Parkman

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Let's see how Mac Jones turns out. 

But yes, BB has been mediocre without Brady. 

Coaches don't win without great players. Some lose with them. 

This franchise won’t be good until the McCaskeys sell. 

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

They are 9-6, so using your previous post, mediocre. Lovie got fired after going 10-6. That didn't make the playoffs, so, again, using your standard, the NFC must have been stacked with great teams that year if 10-6 doesn't get you to the postseason.

EDIT: Nope. There were a lot of 10 and 11 win teams that year and the Bears lost out to Minny on tiebreaks. 

Edited December 28, 20214 yr by Jack Parkman

1 minute ago, ShoeLessRob said:

This franchise won’t be good until the McCaskeys sell. 

All it takes is them getting lucky with one good hire at or near the top and things could turn around. I'm hoping they clean house. It seems like there is at least enough talent there to compete for a playoff spot next year. Depending on what other changes are made, this seems like a better than average opportunity for a coach to step in to. The team underperformed this season, so just getting up to where they should be will look good. They have youth in a few spots that could make a bigger impact just from gaining one more year of experience. 

But based on history there won't be a HoF caliber coach begging for an interview at Halas Hall. I would have my doubts that a guy with *only* college experience will be successful turning around the locker room. 

With regard to Fields, who was the last elite NFL QB that wasn't at least above average at their first opportunity to play? 

Edited December 28, 20214 yr by Jack Parkman

19 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

With regard to Fields, who was the last elite NFL QB that wasn't at least above average at their first opportunity to play? 

Rodgers and Mahomes sat so doesn’t count.
 

Brady was definitely not above average (statistically) out of the gate. Brees wasn’t either. Peyton Manning had his struggles in year one. Josh Allen wasn’t very good. So I would say most weren’t above average out of the gate. They all flashed though. 
 

 

I wonder if college quarterbacks pray they don't get drafted by the Bears. 

13 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Rodgers and Mahomes sat so doesn’t count.
 

Brady was definitely not above average (statistically) out of the gate. Brees wasn’t either. Peyton Manning had his struggles in year one. Josh Allen wasn’t very good. So I would say most weren’t above average out of the gate. They all flashed though. 
 

 

Outside of Josh Allen we're approaching 20 years since an elite QB hasn't announced themselves immediately. I'm not sure Josh Allen is an elite QB BTW, I think he's more in the category of very good. 

Herbert and Burrow are well on their way. 

BTW even though they sat I still think Mahomes and Rodgers count. The moment both got on the field they were great. 

Edited December 28, 20214 yr by Jack Parkman

8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Outside of Josh Allen we're approaching 20 years since an elite QB hasn't announced themselves immediately. I'm not sure Josh Allen is an elite QB BTW, I think he's more in the category of very good. 

Herbert and Burrow are well on their way. 

BTW even though they sat I still think Mahomes and Rodgers count. The moment both got on the field they were great. 

Rodgers sat for years…there is a massive difference…same with Mahomes. But which elite qbs am I missing? Herbert looked the part from day one and Watson largely did…who else? Murray was ok and got better but also got dropped into basically the same offense he was in. 
 

Lamar was special out of the gate - in an offense well designed for him. But those are more exceptions vs norm. But you and I may have different definitions of above average. In general…qbs develop and year 2 and 3 are huge in their progression. They either take meaningful steps or they don’t. 

2 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Rodgers sat for years…there is a massive difference…same with Mahomes. But which elite qbs am I missing? Herbert looked the part from day one and Watson largely did…who else? Murray was ok and got better but also got dropped into basically the same offense he was in. 
 

Lamar was special out of the gate - in an offense well designed for him. But those are more exceptions vs norm. But you and I may have different definitions of above average. In general…qbs develop and year 2 and 3 are huge in their progression. They either take meaningful steps or they don’t. 

You're not missing any, and that's my point. 

The great ones are announcing themselves immediately. 

Dak is above average and he was above average immediately. 

Edited December 28, 20214 yr by Jack Parkman

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

You're not missing any, and that's my point. 

The great ones are announcing themselves immediately. 

Dak is above average and he was above average immediately. 

No - than I proved my point because the vast majority weren’t above average in year one. My list shows and proves it and where there are exceptions they are rare and usually a story behind the exception (such as Murray and same system or Lamar and how they tailored and designed everything for him. 

5 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

No - than I proved my point because the vast majority weren’t above average in year one. My list shows and proves it and where there are exceptions they are rare and usually a story behind the exception (such as Murray and same system or Lamar and how they tailored and designed everything for him. 

Which guys weren't above average in year one as a starter since Brees besides Allen? 

Roethlisberger?-yep

Rodgers?-yep

Wilson?-yep

Mahomes?-yep

Newton?-yep(won an MVP so I'm adding him)

Jackson?-yep

Murray?-Yep

So where's the developed QB outside of Allen? 

 

If you want to go with guys that are above average like Matt Ryan, Prescott and Wentz those guys had nearly immediate success too. 

 

Edited December 28, 20214 yr by Jack Parkman

IIRC didn't Cam Newton and Vince Young have pretty good rookie years? 

It really seems like years three and four are the pivotal years. 

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Which guys weren't above average in year one as a starter since Brees besides Allen? 

Roethlisberger?-yep

Rodgers?-yep

Wilson?-yep

Mahomes?-yep

Newton?-yep(won an MVP so I'm adding him)

Jackson?-yep

Murray?-Yep

So where's the developed QB outside of Allen? 

 

You are completely ignoring the list I gave you. And Wilson was not well above average. Newton won an mvp but he was not a special or above average passer early in his career. And Rodgers and Mahomes were 3rd and 2nd year players.