What the Sox business model has done

[CentralChamps21]

The Sox being "cheap" isn't exactly the right way to describe it. A more accurate description is that the Sox are extremely risk averse when it comes to long term contracts. Other than a reported pursuit of Manny Machado, the Sox have never been willing to offer big money, long term deals to top free agents. There are plenty of examples of long term deals that have become suffocating, but there are ripple effects of this mode of operation.

Since you aren't spending big dollars in free agency, then you have money to do stupid things like trade for a reliever who's had half a good season in his last two years and has a huge player option, and then trade him for an outfielder who's owed a bunch of money and has never been consistent, and of course re-signing a utility guy who can't hit for $15.5m guaranteed.

Exactly one team, Tampa Bay, has been able to be consistently good without ever buying top tier free agents. Nobody else can do it. The Sox appeared to have managed to do it with the Sale/Quintana/Eaton trades, but then they fucked that up.

At some point you have to take a risk on a big free agent like Judge or Rodon. If you hate the idea of being stuck with a declining player at the back end of the contract, frontload the dollars and make it easier to trade or DFA the guy later.

[Lip Man 1]

58 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

The Sox being "cheap" isn't exactly the right way to describe it. A more accurate description is that the Sox are extremely risk averse when it comes to long term contracts. Other than a reported pursuit of Manny Machado, the Sox have never been willing to offer big money, long term deals to top free agents. There are plenty of examples of long term deals that have become suffocating, but there are ripple effects of this mode of operation.

Since you aren't spending big dollars in free agency, then you have money to do stupid things like trade for a reliever who's had half a good season in his last two years and has a huge player option, and then trade him for an outfielder who's owed a bunch of money and has never been consistent, and of course re-signing a utility guy who can't hit for $15.5m guaranteed.

Exactly one team, Tampa Bay, has been able to be consistently good without ever buying top tier free agents. Nobody else can do it. The Sox appeared to have managed to do it with the Sale/Quintana/Eaton trades, but then they fucked that up.

At some point you have to take a risk on a big free agent like Judge or Rodon. If you hate the idea of being stuck with a declining player at the back end of the contract, frontload the dollars and make it easier to trade or DFA the guy later.

The Jamie Navarro and John Danks deals had to have some impact on JR's thinking but you are right, JR will not authorize the record breaking nine figure deal because of what may happen.

Sox are one of only four teams never to have given one, the others are Pittsburgh, Oakland and Kansas City...that's some company eh?

[caulfield12]

Machado

Tanaka

ARod

Torii Hunter

Harper

Wheeler

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The Jamie Navarro and John Danks deals had to have some impact on JR's thinking but you are right, JR will not authorize the record breaking nine figure deal because of what may happen.

Sox are one of only four teams never to have given one, the others are Pittsburgh, Oakland and Kansas City...that's some company eh?

Along with Konerko and Contreras, among others.  Peavy deal worked out okay in the end as we were able to dump him.

No to Buehrle, of course.

[kitekrazy]

2 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

The Sox being "cheap" isn't exactly the right way to describe it. A more accurate description is that the Sox are extremely risk averse when it comes to long term contracts. Other than a reported pursuit of Manny Machado, the Sox have never been willing to offer big money, long term deals to top free agents. There are plenty of examples of long term deals that have become suffocating, but there are ripple effects of this mode of operation.

Since you aren't spending big dollars in free agency, then you have money to do stupid things like trade for a reliever who's had half a good season in his last two years and has a huge player option, and then trade him for an outfielder who's owed a bunch of money and has never been consistent, and of course re-signing a utility guy who can't hit for $15.5m guaranteed.

Exactly one team, Tampa Bay, has been able to be consistently good without ever buying top tier free agents. Nobody else can do it. The Sox appeared to have managed to do it with the Sale/Quintana/Eaton trades, but then they fucked that up.

At some point you have to take a risk on a big free agent like Judge or Rodon. If you hate the idea of being stuck with a declining player at the back end of the contract, frontload the dollars and make it easier to trade or DFA the guy later.

The Sox seem to have bad luck and most likely they end up with an often injured Judge.  They need to have a good farm system and it seems like the scouting seems to produce the same type of players.  They must be under the JR loyalty program.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The Jamie Navarro and John Danks deals had to have some impact on JR's thinking but you are right, JR will not authorize the record breaking nine figure deal because of what may happen.

Sox are one of only four teams never to have given one, the others are Pittsburgh, Oakland and Kansas City...that's some company eh?

Well they spent a year's worth of payroll in 2020 dollars ($128.5M) for seven years of Grandal and Keuchel.

Spent $116M over fourteen months for 10 1/3 years of four 30 something relievers.

• $54M Liam Hendriks (1/15/21)
• $24M Kendall Graveman (11/30/21)
• $21M Craig Kimbrel (Pro-rated 2021 salary 7/30/21 Trade + 2023 Option (11/7/21)
• $17M Joe Kelly (3/14/22)

Their philosophy (avoid 9 figure deals) works if they can scout, acquire and develop cost controlled players, and assess minor and major league talent (internal and external). Marco Paddy is the primary positive on that front, and the Sox handcuff him.

Hence the team has little depth, outbids everyone on old players at the end of their careers, were forced to pawn their 2016 quality pieces for the few quality young players, and have seemingly permanent holes in RF and 2B.

Free or inexpensive "little things" like proper defensive alignment, proper plate approach, quality opponent game plans, proper baserunning, making correct throws (cutoff) and other basic baseball fundamentals would go a long way. It's why Cleveland, Houston and sadly the Sox are where they are in the standings.

Hahn said last October the team acknowledges shortcomings in fundamentals and areas of analytics, and he and the organization were committed to evaluating and improving in 2022. The team became worse in just about all aspects of baseball fundamentals this season.

Edited September 28, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[Lip Man 1]

13 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

The Sox seem to have bad luck and most likely they end up with an often injured Judge.  They need to have a good farm system and it seems like the scouting seems to produce the same type of players.  They must be under the JR loyalty program.

"Luck is the residue of design" - Branch Rickey. You are right though the baseball side of the operation at all levels is inept, dysfunctional and incompetent.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

The Sox seem to have bad luck and most likely they end up with an often injured Judge.  They need to have a good farm system and it seems like the scouting seems to produce the same type of players.  They must be under the JR loyalty program.

Trea Turner or Judge, but we won't shell out for either top of the market guy.

[joejoesox]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Trea Turner or Judge, but we won't shell out for either top of the market guy.

well judge seems like the body type that doesn't last long without chronic injuries in baseball, plus he's hurt like every year already 

[cuban_sammiches]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Machado

Tanaka

ARod

Torii Hunter

Harper

Wheeler

You can add Ohtani to the list of players the Sox have missed out on.

It's weird that none of these marquee players have won a world series (other than A Rod). Have any of them even made the playoffs?

[The Kids Can Play]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Well they spent a year's worth of payroll in 2020 dollars ($128.5M) for seven years of Grandal and Keuchel.

Spent $116M over fourteen months for 10 1/3 years of four 30 something relievers.

• $54M Liam Hendriks (1/15/21)
• $24M Kendall Graveman (11/30/21)
• $21M Craig Kimbrel (Pro-rated 2021 salary 7/30/21 Trade + 2023 Option (11/7/21)
• $17M Joe Kelly (3/14/22)

Their philosophy (avoid 9 figure deals) works if they can scout, acquire and develop cost controlled players, and assess minor and major league talent (internal and external). Marco Paddy is the primary positive on that front, and the Sox handcuff him.

Hence the team has little depth, outbids everyone on old players at the end of their careers, were forced to pawn their 2016 quality pieces for the few quality young players, and have seemingly permanent holes in RF and 2B.

Free or inexpensive "little things" like proper defensive alignment, proper plate approach, quality opponent game plans, proper baserunning, making correct throws (cutoff) and other basic baseball fundamentals would go a long way. It's why Cleveland, Houston and sadly the Sox are where they are in the standings.

Hahn said last October the team acknowledges shortcomings in fundamentals and areas of analytics, and he and the organization were committed to evaluating and improving in 2022. The team became worse in just about all aspects of baseball fundamentals this season.

Hahn said last October the team acknowledges shortcomings in fundamentals and areas of analytics, and he and the organization were committed to evaluating and improving in 2022. The team became worse in just about all aspects of baseball fundamentals this season.

The complete INSANITY once again, is Rick Hahn gets to come back in 2023 and begin that re-evaluating of the organizations' shortcomings in fundamentals, analytics and roster flaws...and once again, promise us he is committed to improving the 2023 roster. Oh yeah btw, 2023 will be year 7 in the Sox rebuild to make the Sox a championship world series contender! Thank you Rick "Con Man" Hahn...may we have another!

[The Kids Can Play]

8 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

The Sox seem to have bad luck and most likely they end up with an often injured Judge.  They need to have a good farm system and it seems like the scouting seems to produce the same type of players.  They must be under the JR loyalty program.

The farm system is exactly the problem. This why we need an outside GM executive to come in from a team that is successful and knows how to build a farm system through proper scouting, drafting and developing of players in their organization. Cleveland and Tampa Bay seem to understand this concept. 

It ridiculous we have so many flaws on this roster going into 2023 and any help will come from the 26th ranked farm system, or big free agents which Jerry won't approve spending for, because Rick Hahn already has too much wasted money on the books from horrible trades and free agent signings.

 

 

[joejoesox]

Ozzie spitting facts

Sox need to trade some of their DHs

 

[joejoesox]

I counted the # of baseball ops analysts/data scientists/researchers each team has...
from their 2022 media guides and websites. so these numbers aren't perfect, but my best guess

This chart is 2022 team payrolls vs. size of front office analytics departments pic.twitter.com/iI9Wo4DZ7H

— Jay Cuda (@JayCuda) September 28, 2022

[greg775]

On 9/28/2022 at 10:35 AM, joejoesox said:

Ozzie spitting facts

Sox need to trade some of their DHs

 

Listen to this and tell me you still hate Ozzie. Cmon. The guy is a lovable chatterbox who I'd love to see come back and manage the team. He's worth the gamble. Just tell him look, ONE time you comment on something besides baseball you are GONE. Set the parameters.

[Lip Man 1]

10 hours ago, greg775 said:

Listen to this and tell me you still hate Ozzie. Cmon. The guy is a lovable chatterbox who I'd love to see come back and manage the team. He's worth the gamble. Just tell him look, ONE time you comment on something besides baseball you are GONE. Set the parameters.

Ozzie did some good things for the Sox but it's hard to just "forget" about this:

September 26, 2011 – He was considered the face of the franchise for eight seasons but on this night after a 4-3 win over Toronto, manager Ozzie Guillen announced he was leaving after owner Jerry Reinsdorf agreed to let him out of the final year of his contract. 

Guillen, who was the 1985 A.L. Rookie of the Year with the White Sox, won the World Series in 2005 and also got the club into the playoffs in 2008. He had five winning seasons in the eight years as manager and was named Manager of the Year for his work in 2005. 

In that magical season of 2005, “Ozzieball” resulted in the Sox getting off to the best start in their history and with a perfect blend of pitching, speed, power and the ability to execute the fundamentals the Sox were in first place from wire to wire. Then they blitzed through the post season putting together an 11-1 record that was the third best post season record in baseball history. 

Guillen’s passion and enthusiasm for the franchise was unparalleled but at times he was his own worst enemy.  

Over his final years in Chicago, he became increasingly thin-skinned and defensive when criticism was directed his way and he lashed out at Sox fans on more than one occasion. Among his famous rants against the fans were one where he said that they could ‘‘Turn off their TVs and stop watching the game if they don’t like the [bleep]ing lineup’’ and another in May 2011 where he claimed Sox fans would not remember him, “As soon as you leave the ballpark, they don’t care about you. They don’t. The monuments, the statues…they pee on them when they get drunk.” On the afternoon of the day he left the team Guillen told reporters that he would not want to return to fulfill his 2012 contract unless he got an extension and more money.

Ozzie’s relationship with G.M. Kenny Williams also deteriorated over the final few years because the two men appeared to have different viewpoints over how the roster should be constructed and the style to which the Sox should play. The Jim Thome/DH controversy was an example of the different ideas.  Guillen’s family didn’t help the situation with social media comments derogatory to Williams. 

Many felt when Ozzie was hired in November 2003 that he was the right man for the right team at the right time and for a few years he was. Unfortunately, the manager with the longest tenure since Al Lopez let some personal foibles override a good situation and it was best for all that a parting of the ways took place.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Ozzie did some good things for the Sox but it's hard to just "forget" about this:

September 26, 2011 – He was considered the face of the franchise for eight seasons but on this night after a 4-3 win over Toronto, manager Ozzie Guillen announced he was leaving after owner Jerry Reinsdorf agreed to let him out of the final year of his contract. 

Guillen, who was the 1985 A.L. Rookie of the Year with the White Sox, won the World Series in 2005 and also got the club into the playoffs in 2008. He had five winning seasons in the eight years as manager and was named Manager of the Year for his work in 2005. 

In that magical season of 2005, “Ozzieball” resulted in the Sox getting off to the best start in their history and with a perfect blend of pitching, speed, power and the ability to execute the fundamentals the Sox were in first place from wire to wire. Then they blitzed through the post season putting together an 11-1 record that was the third best post season record in baseball history. 

Guillen’s passion and enthusiasm for the franchise was unparalleled but at times he was his own worst enemy.  

Over his final years in Chicago, he became increasingly thin-skinned and defensive when criticism was directed his way and he lashed out at Sox fans on more than one occasion. Among his famous rants against the fans were one where he said that they could ‘‘Turn off their TVs and stop watching the game if they don’t like the [bleep]ing lineup’’ and another in May 2011 where he claimed Sox fans would not remember him, “As soon as you leave the ballpark, they don’t care about you. They don’t. The monuments, the statues…they pee on them when they get drunk.” On the afternoon of the day he left the team Guillen told reporters that he would not want to return to fulfill his 2012 contract unless he got an extension and more money.

Ozzie’s relationship with G.M. Kenny Williams also deteriorated over the final few years because the two men appeared to have different viewpoints over how the roster should be constructed and the style to which the Sox should play. The Jim Thome/DH controversy was an example of the different ideas.  Guillen’s family didn’t help the situation with social media comments derogatory to Williams. 

Many felt when Ozzie was hired in November 2003 that he was the right man for the right team at the right time and for a few years he was. Unfortunately, the manager with the longest tenure since Al Lopez let some personal foibles override a good situation and it was best for all that a parting of the ways took place.

This all occurred after Kenny Williams broke his agreement with Ozzie to make no decisions on extending his staff until after the season, and Kenny went behind Ozzie’s back and extended his clubhouse snitch, the absolutely worthless for the next eight seasons Don Cooper, before the end of the season.

Kenny Williams installed his clubhouse snitch as a manager for the final two games, permanently smudging the White Sox record book.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[The Kids Can Play]

On 9/28/2022 at 5:05 PM, joejoesox said:

Just another reason this Circus organization is run by a bunch of inept Clowns. 

The Guardians have 12 and the Rays have 37 to the Sox league lowest of 5. Are you f*#king kidding me! No wonder the Rays do so well in the draft, farm system and putting out playoff rosters with lower end budgets.

Yet with all we know and witnessed with our loser owner over the years, does this really shock anyone?

Edited September 30, 2022 by The Kids Can Play

[South Side Hit Men]

1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Just another reason this Circus organization is run by a bunch of inept Clowns. 

The Guardians have 12 and the Rays have 37. No wonder those two teams do so well in the draft, farm system and putting out playoff rosters with lower end budgets.

Yet with all we know and witnessed with our loser owner over the years, does this really shock anyone?

The White Sox five includes Shelley Duncan heading up the operation. His job qualification? Being born Dave Duncan’s son. Similar to Tony La Russia’s crony veterinarian Head of Analytics in Arizona.

Nearly everyone in the White Sox front office and television broadcasts are nothing but absolutely worthless cronies and paid Jerry Reinsdorf shills. They only need stay forever loyal to Jerry and they will literally never leave until after Jerry passes away.

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

This all occurred after Kenny Williams broke his agreement with Ozzie to make no decisions on extending his staff until after the season, and Kenny went behind Ozzie’s back and extended his clubhouse snitch, the absolutely worthless for the next eight seasons Don Cooper, before the end of the season.

Kenny Williams installed his clubhouse snitch as a manager for the final two games, permanently smudging the White Sox record book.

 

I had never heard of this one before, can you supply any links to any stories on this situation? I'd like to get more details. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I had never heard of this one before, can you supply any links to any stories on this situation? I'd like to get more details. 

Well, the googles have plenty of articles about it, but you can start with this one:

https://www.espn.co.uk/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7117883/ozzie-guillen-fires-back-chicago-white-sox-pitching-coach-don-cooper

 

Always loved this quote:

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2011/10/18/ozzie-guillen-angry-at-white-sox-pitching-coach-don-cooper/

Quote

Cooper needs to look in the mirror. He didn’t back-stab me. I know who he is. He back-stabbed his fellow coaches, the guys he worked with for years. You got family? That’s fine. Everyone does. We all knew Coop was Kenny’s b****. Look, Coop is not a good coach; he’s a great coach. But Coop is Coop. He doesn’t worry about anyone; he worries about himself. I stuck up for my coaches like a m*****f*****.

That said, Ozzie should have taken the high road and finished the season before telling Kenny and Cooper to GFY.

PS - Don Cooper called Joe Cowley and your buddy Darryl Van Schouwen liars, but when asked directly what was inaccurate going over the details in an interview with the Score, Cooper couldn't refute anything in the articles.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/10/07/cooper-everything-cowley-wrote-is-a-bunch-of-lies/

Quote

"My feeling right now on the Sun-Times, and particularly Joe Cowley and to a degree, (White Sox beat writer) Darryl Van Schouwen, until I get a chance to talk to him, is this is the National Inquirer, it's a rag. And I'm telling you it's not the truth," Cooper said.

Cooper said he was upset with Van Schouwen for putting words in his mouth in a report earlier this week about the team's managerial candidates.

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by South Side Hit Men