TheBooneLoganEra Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 13 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Nick Madrigal was a big time Christian and his faith helped to tear the team apart...this might work with the Royals, when you have a majority of players sharing the same faith and even drafted for those reasons, but it doesn't work if that "leader" is the one voice in the wilderness and not backing it up with his play, either. Or nobody will listen if the guy's on the IL, let's put it that way. Crazy that the former "core" played at their peak when Madrigal was here.....allegedly tearing them apart. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 18 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said: Crazy that the former "core" played at their peak when Madrigal was here.....allegedly tearing them apart. He was arguably dealt to partially help prevent that...but look at what happened from that 2021 trade deadline through the end of 2023. .500ish club and then a complete fall into "oblivion." Just like Madrigal Heuer and Kimbrel...not even sure Craig makes the Hall now. Edited April 29 by caulfield12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: He was arguably dealt to partially help prevent that...but look at what happened from that 2021 trade deadline through the end of 2023. .500ish club and then a complete fall into oblivion. You're going to have to flesh this out for me. You're saying .... the White Sox, in trading Madrigal, jettisoned a guy who was cleaving the team right down the middle with his beliefs, but was actually the glue that would have held the team together? MIND BLOWN!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBooneLoganEra Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: He was arguably dealt to partially help prevent that...but look at what happened from that 2021 trade deadline through the end of 2023. .500ish club and then a complete fall into "oblivion." Right........doesn't that kind of argue against your point? Either way someone else said it they just sold hogh on that dude. That last core failed because a bunch of young studs were resting on their laurels of which they had none. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: You're going to have to flesh this out for me. You're saying .... the White Sox, in trading Madrigal, jettisoned a guy who was cleaving the team right down the middle with his beliefs, but was actually the glue that would have held the team together? MIND BLOWN!!! He was supposed to be that glue/complementary player. That's what he was billed as. Leader of those great Oregon State teams. https://www.soxtalk.com/forums/topic/110522-a-nick-madrigal-sized-sample/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwih-vGHyf2MAxXGGLkGHYK2AVYQFnoECAQQAg&usg=AOvVaw2OydoNQz1aMPKuPN3gbZ1i After the White Sox drafted Oregon State's Nick Madrigal we called up Pat Casey, Madrigal's head coach at Oregon State. Casey came on the podcast and raved about the White Sox first round pick. He spoke about why Madrigal is the only sole captain he's ever had on his team (instead of Rutschman Kwan Larnach Greiner), why his 5-foot-8 frame doesn't matter and where he thinks Madrigal is actually better than Red Sox All-Star Dustin Pedroia. Casey talks about Madrigal's hitting, defense and if he can play shortstop in the big leagues. Finally, he told the story about how he offered Madrigal a scholarship to Oregon State when he was in 8th grade. https://chsnwhitesox.podbean.com/e/ep-121-nick-madrigal-s-college-coach-this-guy-is-going-to-be-a-superstar/ Just listen to this.... Edited April 29 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 24 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: He was supposed to be that glue/complementary player. That's what he was billed as. Leader of those great Oregon State teams. https://www.soxtalk.com/forums/topic/110522-a-nick-madrigal-sized-sample/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwih-vGHyf2MAxXGGLkGHYK2AVYQFnoECAQQAg&usg=AOvVaw2OydoNQz1aMPKuPN3gbZ1i After the White Sox drafted Oregon State's Nick Madrigal we called up Pat Casey, Madrigal's head coach at Oregon State. Casey came on the podcast and raved about the White Sox first round pick. He spoke about why Madrigal is the only sole captain he's ever had on his team (instead of Rutschman Kwan Larnach Greiner), why his 5-foot-8 frame doesn't matter and where he thinks Madrigal is actually better than Red Sox All-Star Dustin Pedroia. Casey talks about Madrigal's hitting, defense and if he can play shortstop in the big leagues. Finally, he told the story about how he offered Madrigal a scholarship to Oregon State when he was in 8th grade. https://chsnwhitesox.podbean.com/e/ep-121-nick-madrigal-s-college-coach-this-guy-is-going-to-be-a-superstar/ Just listen to this.... So, it seems the problem is that you believed a head coach's hype, fell in love with a player, put all of your hopes and dreams on a rookie, then blamed it all on his faith when it didn't work out? KW/Haber/Hahn were calling the shots in those drafts. Hostetler also wasn't a great scouting director. Shirley seems to have recovered from FO panic picks, and still fleshed out good 2-20 drafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 10 minutes ago, WestEddy said: So, it seems the problem is that you believed a head coach's hype, fell in love with a player, put all of your hopes and dreams on a rookie, then blamed it all on his faith when it didn't work out? KW/Haber/Hahn were calling the shots in those drafts. Hostetler also wasn't a great scouting director. Shirley seems to have recovered from FO panic picks, and still fleshed out good 2-20 drafts. Weird that player development is missing here. Who was that again? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 8 minutes ago, WestEddy said: So, it seems the problem is that you believed a head coach's hype, fell in love with a player, put all of your hopes and dreams on a rookie, then blamed it all on his faith when it didn't work out? KW/Haber/Hahn were calling the shots in those drafts. Hostetler also wasn't a great scouting director. Shirley seems to have recovered from FO panic picks, and still fleshed out good 2-20 drafts. Typical Caulfield Nat'l Enquirer type posts. Sometimes it's hard to weed out the bullshit and politcal jabs. He just wasn't good at baseball and one of the dumbest baserunners out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 28 minutes ago, WestEddy said: So, it seems the problem is that you believed a head coach's hype, fell in love with a player, put all of your hopes and dreams on a rookie, then blamed it all on his faith when it didn't work out? KW/Haber/Hahn were calling the shots in those drafts. Hostetler also wasn't a great scouting director. Shirley seems to have recovered from FO panic picks, and still fleshed out good 2-20 drafts. Ummm...when supreme talent level is not there, it's the kiss of death. Gary Gaetti nearly divided those 87 and 91 Twins with his proselytzing. Faith is the symptom...but not the ultimate cause of his downfall. Maybe the Royals under Dayton Moore should have taken him lol. Never a good fit on the Sox...where the team was already splitting between white black and Cuban/Hispanic players. Madrigal was just another layer or dimension to that. Edited April 29 by caulfield12 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 22 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Weird that player development is missing here. Who was that again? When does player development participate in draft selections? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Madrigal was just another layer or dimension to that. Counterpoint: No he wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 8 minutes ago, WestEddy said: When does player development participate in draft selections? So what is Getz responsible for if not developing those targeted players? They have to work in conjunction with each other...hand in glove, one does not exist without the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 9 minutes ago, WestEddy said: When does player development participate in draft selections? So we are back to the theory that player development can only develop the exact right players, and so far, we haven't exactly found who those players are, because our development has been non-existent. Got it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 7 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Counterpoint: No he wasn't. Counterpoint: There's an excuse or rationalization for every single move that Chris Getz has ever made that absolves him of all guilt or responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: So we are back to the theory that player development can only develop the exact right players, and so far, we haven't exactly found who those players are, because our development has been non-existent. Got it. They're all not in the Sox "wheelhouse". So what exactly is that wheelhouse, WestEddy? Only left handed pitchers? And what about position players? 28-32 year old journeymen? Maybe just don't draft any position players at all...like the Guardians/Indians famously have attempted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: So we are back to the theory that player development can only develop the exact right players, and so far, we haven't exactly found who those players are, because our development has been non-existent. Got it. I would guess that in 2019, there was an EasternEdward here who was advocating for keeping Madrigal in the minors to "work on his game", while he was roundly mocked for buying into the company line so they could gain another year of control. Perhaps I could trick Caulfield into making your own point so that you immediately need to disavow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: So what is Getz responsible for if not developing those targeted players? They have to work in conjunction with each other...hand in glove, one does not exist without the other. Getz is being accused of playing service time games with Meidroth, Elko, Teel, and others, as they work on their game. Nobody here would argue that Madrigal and Vaughn weren't "rushed". The director of development doesn't decide who gets promoted to the bigs. Getz has also alluded to the dysfunctional siloing of scouting and development so that development would get players with no real idea of what the scouts were looking at. He has worked to open up communication between those areas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: They're all not in the Sox "wheelhouse". So what exactly is that wheelhouse, WestEddy? Only left handed pitchers? And what about position players? 28-32 year old journeymen? Maybe just don't draft any position players at all...like the Guardians/Indians famously have attempted. Good point. I did leave out LH SP. We do seem to do extremely well there historically, though now we seem to be a frightening TJS stage, so let's put an asterisk on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Counterpoint: There's an excuse or rationalization for every single move that Chris Getz has ever made that absolves him of all guilt or responsibility. Perhaps, but the silly BS you trot out is easily parried with actual truth and logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 12 minutes ago, WestEddy said: I would guess that in 2019, there was an EasternEdward here who was advocating for keeping Madrigal in the minors to "work on his game", while he was roundly mocked for buying into the company line so they could gain another year of control. Perhaps I could trick Caulfield into making your own point so that you immediately need to disavow it. What are you even going on about here? This is so bizarre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 7 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Perhaps, but the silly BS you trot out is easily parried with actual truth and logic. Yes...clearly the entire site has jumped to your side lol. https://brewerfanatic.com/forums/topic/44615-rule-5-to-cws-shane-smith-discussion-thread/page/6/ Brewers' fans melting down as Shane Smith headed towards All Star selection and can't for the life of them figure out another Sox player who would warrant a selection lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBooneLoganEra Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 As intellectually stimulating as this conversation is, we need to get back on point here. Because there is still no news of an Elko callup. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: What are you even going on about here? This is so bizarre. I think he discovered Edward is my middle name, but in actuality have always been Caulfield12 since chisox.com board wars over Kenny Williams in early 2000's, WSI banishment, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: I think he discovered Edward is my middle name, but in actuality have always been Caulfield12 since chisox.com board wars over Kenny Williams in early 2000's, WSI banishment, etc. lmao he is saying that there was an equal opposite to himself. Westeddy, EasternEdward and now we ALL know your middle name 😂(not that it’s an embarrassing name) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 7 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said: As intellectually stimulating as this conversation is, we need to get back on point here. Because there is still no news of an Elko callup. That would mean admitting quite publicly that Hahn...errr Getz, was actually wrong in their assessment of Vaughn. No can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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