New farm system rankings...

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, T R U said:

This farm system lacks anything resembling star power, outside of maybe Braden Montgomery. Its no surprise to see them around the middle.

They have some nice looking players, but no one that's going to be a game changer. 

It also didn't help that Schultz, Montgomery, and Smith all have/had the arrow pointing down so far this season.

Well, Colson is skewing the results a bit.  His minor league performance kept declining and now he looks like he could be a very good major league player.

[WestEddy]

10 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Imagine how high the Sox lack of confidence in their ability to draft position players must be if they would seemingly rather take raw arms that are much more injury-prone pretty much at all times throughout their career than position players?

This year's draft seemed very focused on position players, so there's probably no lack of confidence. 

[southsider2k5]

25 minutes ago, T R U said:

This farm system lacks anything resembling star power, outside of maybe Braden Montgomery. Its no surprise to see them around the middle.

They have some nice looking players, but no one that's going to be a game changer. 

It also didn't help that Schultz, Montgomery, and Smith all have/had the arrow pointing down so far this season.

I think this is the important thing.  While they have top 100 weight, it doesn't start until #33.  When the Sox were previously top rated, they also had the top rated talent in their system weighted up front, and not in the back of the 100. At various points you had Robert and Moncada near the top, along with guys like Eloy and Kopech ahead of where Braden is now.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

14 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

This year's draft seemed very focused on position players, so there's probably no lack of confidence. 

The Ryan Fuller excuse just doesnt add up to me. I have to believe they had a plan to have that infrastructure in place when they were drafting, so why would a lack of infrastructure at that time influence their pick?

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think this is the important thing.  While they have top 100 weight, it doesn't start until #33.  When the Sox were previously top rated, they also had the top rated talent in their system weighted up front, and not in the back of the 100. At various points you had Robert and Moncada near the top, along with guys like Eloy and Kopech ahead of where Braden is now.

Hansen was in the 50s once upon a time.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Ryan Fuller excuse just doesnt add up to me. I have to believe they had a plan to have that infrastructure in place when they were drafting, so why would a lack of infrastructure at that time influence their pick?

It's always struck me as odd that we talked so much about how much player dev sucked, and how bad the previous regime was at it, but how few people involved in the daily contact with our minor league kids were actually changed.  We changed some at the top, but the day to day guys were largely the same.  The idea that Ryan Fuller alone was going to fix everything seemed very PR stunt-ish.  If things were THAT bad, why wasn't there whole sale changes?  My guess is because most of the MiLB hires were Getz guys already (going based on Getz himself talking about how much freedom he had to do things) and he wasn't going to change them out.  So far my observation is that 
"improvements" have mostly come from players from the outside coming into the system new, and not with improvements in existing players.  If that is really the case, it really isn't infrastructure and hires, but just acquiring guys with talent.  The actual quality of the hires and infrastructure seems to be ending in the same types of results for the same players.

[nrockway]

28 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

This year's draft seemed very focused on position players, so there's probably no lack of confidence. 

Reading about him a little bit, I’m pretty excited about our second round pick, Jaden Fauske. Over slot money for an ‘area code game’ guy, they tend to be pretty impressive. Might even stick in center field. 455 grade Lodise looks like a high floor player too. 
Think we have a lot of potentially pretty good position players in the psystem compared to years past. Not sure how next year’s draft is shaping up, but it would be nice to draft a true/defensive center fielder in the early rounds. 

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, nrockway said:

Reading about him a little bit, I’m pretty excited about our second round pick, Jaden Fauske. Over slot money for an ‘area code game’ guy, they tend to be pretty impressive. Might even stick in center field. 455 grade Lodise looks like a high floor player too. 
Think we have a lot of potentially pretty good position players in the psystem compared to years past. Not sure how next year’s draft is shaping up, but it would be nice to draft a true/defensive center fielder in the early rounds. 

And 4 of the top 6 picks last year were bats. I don't think Getz is telegraphing any fear of developing offensive players. 

[WestEddy]

39 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Ryan Fuller excuse just doesnt add up to me. I have to believe they had a plan to have that infrastructure in place when they were drafting, so why would a lack of infrastructure at that time influence their pick?

And they probably did. They did, after all draft 4 bats with their top 6 picks in 2024. I have read that Getz probably wanted to go "safe" with a pitcher. That was probably either written as an aside in a SoxMachine article, or I heard on a FutureSox podcast. Sorry I can't provide any further context. 

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Schultz having a rework is the biggest stain and red flag for this current regime. It made no sense. It has been a huge failure, and they've been candid about it being their decision and direction that's led him here. He went from a possible #1 overall prospect to a huge question mark.

The lack of pitching development this year has been devastating. Smith also didn't throw strikes in college so assuming command will come with reps is far from a guarantee.

Lastly, they're on pace to lose 101 games and they have a farm system in the back half of the league. How is there any positivity there?

What's the difference between a stain and a red flag? And a huge failure? Are those three different things? And if it doesn't make sense to you, shouldn't you reserve judgement until you can understand what's going on?

Are you actually implying that they made him hurt his plant knee? It looks to me like they challenged Schultz to lean on only part of his arsenal to clean up his mechanics, and pulled Hagen Smith aside to clean up his. They caught two injuries before they developed into something worse, and they'll both be back on the mound this fall. I'm not sure I see the "stain". Or the "red flag". Or even the "huge failure". Yes, it would be nice for these two pitchers to have pitched their way into the major league rotation, and be in the ROY conversation. They're not. 

They've had about 5 pitchers perform their way into the greater rotation picture (Murphy, Oppor, LaCombe, McDougal, Lucas Gordon), while others just progressed. Seriously, I'm sure that if I was to explain fully how I see any positivity in this system, you would argue with all of it, so pretend I said something, and have at it. 

[WestEddy]

And just to provide some context to the Schultz pick (1,26 - 2022), in the 61 year history of the amateur draft, 4 players picked at #26 have eclipsed 10 bWAR in their careers. That's four (4) out of sixty-one (61). The White Sox took a HS pitcher without a lengthy track record, and have turned him into a top 20 prospect who has ascended to AAA in his 3rd season. They've challenged his innings counts, and limited his pitch selection, and he struggled at the level right below the majors.

I'm not sure how that's a stain, or a red flag. Or even a "huge failure". 

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

On Smith, I was definitely one of the vocal ones about the Sox doing what they do best, but I do feel it is telling that Getz was seemingly still afraid to go away from pitching, and allegedly overruled his staff to do so.

As to Sirota, would he have hit in under the draft caps?  That's always the hard part.

Sirota was only $80k more than McLain, should have been a way to make that work one way or the other.  For example, go with a cheap senior in the 7th instead of Phil Fox and you have plenty of room.

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

What's the difference between a stain and a red flag? And a huge failure? Are those three different things? And if it doesn't make sense to you, shouldn't you reserve judgement until you can understand what's going on?

Are you actually implying that they made him hurt his plant knee? It looks to me like they challenged Schultz to lean on only part of his arsenal to clean up his mechanics, and pulled Hagen Smith aside to clean up his. They caught two injuries before they developed into something worse, and they'll both be back on the mound this fall. I'm not sure I see the "stain". Or the "red flag". Or even the "huge failure". Yes, it would be nice for these two pitchers to have pitched their way into the major league rotation, and be in the ROY conversation. They're not. 

They've had about 5 pitchers perform their way into the greater rotation picture (Murphy, Oppor, LaCombe, McDougal, Lucas Gordon), while others just progressed. Seriously, I'm sure that if I was to explain fully how I see any positivity in this system, you would argue with all of it, so pretend I said something, and have at it. 

I love when people say things like this, not realizing that it would require them to do the same thing.  Honestly in a year where there were whispers about both Smith and Schultz hitting the majors this year, I don't see how you can qualify their injury laden, low performance seasons as anything but a failure.  It doesn't mean their done forever, but it sure as hell isn't a good thing.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Sirota was only $80k more than McLain, should have been a way to make that work one way or the other.  For example, go with a cheap senior in the 7th instead of Phil Fox and you have plenty of room.

So it was probably more floor over ceiling type of work.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

What's the difference between a stain and a red flag? And a huge failure? Are those three different things? And if it doesn't make sense to you, shouldn't you reserve judgement until you can understand what's going on?

Are you actually implying that they made him hurt his plant knee? It looks to me like they challenged Schultz to lean on only part of his arsenal to clean up his mechanics, and pulled Hagen Smith aside to clean up his. They caught two injuries before they developed into something worse, and they'll both be back on the mound this fall. I'm not sure I see the "stain". Or the "red flag". Or even the "huge failure". Yes, it would be nice for these two pitchers to have pitched their way into the major league rotation, and be in the ROY conversation. They're not. 

They've had about 5 pitchers perform their way into the greater rotation picture (Murphy, Oppor, LaCombe, McDougal, Lucas Gordon), while others just progressed. Seriously, I'm sure that if I was to explain fully how I see any positivity in this system, you would argue with all of it, so pretend I said something, and have at it. 

Why didn’t they catch this for the other ridiculous number of their other pitchers that ended up requiring TJ surgery this year?  I’m not so sure they caught anything, and if surgery isn’t already inevitable for them.  Afterall, their track record looks pretty bad regarding pitcher injuries.

Edited August 14 by WhiteSox2023

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

56 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

And just to provide some context to the Schultz pick (1,26 - 2022), in the 61 year history of the amateur draft, 4 players picked at #26 have eclipsed 10 bWAR in their careers. That's four (4) out of sixty-one (61). The White Sox took a HS pitcher without a lengthy track record, and have turned him into a top 20 prospect who has ascended to AAA in his 3rd season. They've challenged his innings counts, and limited his pitch selection, and he struggled at the level right below the majors.

I'm not sure how that's a stain, or a red flag. Or even a "huge failure". 

You don't understand what was a failure about overhauling a guy who was dominating resulting in him falling apart and ALL of his stuff regressing?

Also, a stain is a single negative thing that happened while a red flag is a signifier of things to be concerned about in the future. Glad I could help answer that for you.

[southsider2k5]

16 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You don't understand what was a failure about overhauling a guy who was dominating resulting in him falling apart and ALL of his stuff regressing?

Also, a stain is a single negative thing that happened while a red flag is a signifier of things to be concerned about in the future. Glad I could help answer that for you.

If we have reached the point where the debate has become about how to define obvious terms, the debate is effectively over.

[joejoesox]

9 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It’s still early and I remain somewhat hopeful, but taking Hagen Smith over the cohort of positional players that were available is fucking killing us right now.  Konner Griffin is currently #1 at BA, JJ Wetherholt is #5, and Bryce Rainer is #25.  Those guys were taken four, two, and six picks behind us respectfully and all got a $1M to $2M less than Smith.  And then you have the two 1B sandwiched around our pick in Kurtz and Caglianone.  The former is currently putting up 3.2 fWAR as a rookie 1B and the latter has already reach the majors (though struggling) after crushing the minors.  Those guys got $1M and $500k less than Smith respectively.  And just for transparency, those five guys got the five highest bonuses after Smith and were all considered top 10 prospects in that draft, so this isn’t cherry-picking a bunch of random hits and saying we blew it.

And taking Nick McLain over Mike Sirota (BA’s #48 prospect) in the 3rd is also a dagger.  BA had Sirota as the 70th overall prospect in the 2024 draft whereas McLain was in the 200’s.  Both were available for us at our pick in the 3rd and we took the tweener OF with good bloodlines over the far more physically gifted player coming off a rough season all for about $80k in bonus pool savings.  I was mad at the time about this and am even more pissed now that McLain has basically missed the entire season while Sirota has turned into a top 50 prospect.

Sox are gonna make more bad decisions than good until the Reinsdorf/Getz era is over.  These people aren't qualified to run a franchise, and we all know it 

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

I love when people say things like this, not realizing that it would require them to do the same thing.  Honestly in a year where there were whispers about both Smith and Schultz hitting the majors this year, I don't see how you can qualify their injury laden, low performance seasons as anything but a failure.  It doesn't mean their done forever, but it sure as hell isn't a good thing.

I didn't say it made "no sense". I see a reason for how they handled Schultz. It doesn't apply to me.

[WestEddy]

46 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Why didn’t they catch this for the other ridiculous number of their other pitchers that ended up requiring TJ surgery this year?  I’m not so sure they caught anything, and if surgery isn’t already inevitable for them.  Afterall, their track record looks pretty bad regarding pitcher injuries.

You mean why don't the White Sox have people living with their prospects during the winter? Are you actually asking that?!?

[GreenSox]

Midpack seems about right.  
Drafting seems about average: some good picks, but several prominent  busts.  And a lot of reaching. 
Took a pass on the July trading period.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

You mean why don't the White Sox have people living with their prospects during the winter? Are you actually asking that?!?

You just gave the Sox credit for preventing injuries to Schultz and Smith.  My question is, why couldn’t they identify potential injury situations for numerous other pitchers in their organization?

Are you saying that all of their pitchers that eventually had to have TJ surgery injured their arms only during the offseason?  Here’s a specific example — the Sox were sure that Drew Thorpe would just need a bone spur taken care of and he would be ready for Spring Training.  Next, he needs TJ surgery, so what happened there?

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

So it was probably more floor over ceiling type of work.

Yeah, that and maybe they wanted a fast mover given the dearth of OF prospects in the upper minors.

[WestEddy]

40 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You just gave the Sox credit for preventing injuries to Schultz and Smith.  My question is, why couldn’t they identify potential injury situations for numerous other pitchers in their organization?

Are you saying that all of their pitchers that eventually had to have TJ surgery injured their arms only during the offseason?  Here’s a specific example — the Sox were sure that Drew Thorpe would just need a bone spur taken care of and he would be ready for Spring Training.  Next, he needs TJ surgery, so what happened there?

I gave you two examples where the team found an issue early, and avoided worse damage, and your response seems to be, "why can't they avoid every single injury?", is that right? 

I have non-hodgkins lymphoma. However, I first had double vision out of nowhere for a few days. So I went to the hospital, and the doctors looked at my eye to see what the problem was. They thought I might have a tumor behind my eye, so they ordered a CT Scan with contrast. To do that, they do a blood test to check kidney function. My creatinine level was raised, so they sent me to a nephrologist, who was stumped, so he ordered an ultrasound of my kidney, where, lo and behold, they found a tumor. It was only after a biopsy that they could diagnose me. It then took a bone marrow biopsy to figure out how far it spread. They never figured out what caused the double vision, and surmised that the tumor was throwing clots, and I had a stroke of my #2 cranial nerve, which caused the double vision. That's 3 different specialists I had to see before they even had an idea what was up. 

So again, are you asking why, if Drew Thorpe had a bone spur, they didn't open up his entire arm and check everything? Or just look at him and know everything that was wrong with him? Your original question pre-supposes that Thorpe had symptoms beyond those that would point to bone spurs. 

I'll give you a few more. Colson Montgomery felt discomfort during batting practice, and the team shut him down. He missed a few weeks of spring training, not half a season from back surgery. Miguel Vargas and Brooks Baldwin experienced discomfort in the batting cage, they were shut down, received treatment, and returned to action quickly. Martin Perez felt discomfort on the mound, he was shut down, and they avoided TJS. 

As far as Ky Bush, Prelander Berroa, Mason Adams, Juan Carela and Blake Larson, those were all diagnosed in spring training. Do you have any information about their communications with the team back in October and in the off-season? 

Edited August 14 by WestEddy

[caulfield12]

6 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Well, Colson is skewing the results a bit.  His minor league performance kept declining and now he looks like he could be a very good major league player.

And Grant Taylor consigned to the reliever shelf.

And all those pitching injuries to guys like Larsen and Thorpe, Iriarte imploding, etc.