New farm system rankings...

[WhiteSox2023]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

And Grant Taylor consigned to the reliever shelf.

And all those pitching injuries to guys like Larsen and Thorpe, Iriarte imploding, etc.

The pitching definitely went to 💩.

[southsider2k5]

44 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I gave you two examples where the team found an issue early, and avoided worse damage, and your response seems to be, "why can't they avoid every single injury?", is that right? 

I have non-hodgkins lymphoma. However, I first had double vision out of nowhere for a few days. So I went to the hospital, and the doctors looked at my eye to see what the problem was. They thought I might have a tumor behind my eye, so they ordered a CT Scan with contrast. To do that, they do a blood test to check kidney function. My creatinine level was raised, so they sent me to a nephrologist, who was stumped, so he ordered an ultrasound of my kidney, where, lo and behold, they found a tumor. It was only after a biopsy that they could diagnose me. It then took a bone marrow biopsy to figure out how far it spread. They never figured out what caused the double vision, and surmised that the tumor was throwing clots, and I had a stroke of my #2 cranial nerve, which caused the double vision. That's 3 different specialists I had to see before they even had an idea what was up. 

So again, are you asking why, if Drew Thorpe had a bone spur, they didn't open up his entire arm and check everything? Or just look at him and know everything that was wrong with him? Your original question pre-supposes that Thorpe had symptoms beyond those that would point to bone spurs. 

I'll give you a few more. Colson Montgomery felt discomfort during batting practice, and the team shut him down. He missed a few weeks of spring training, not half a season from back surgery. Miguel Vargas and Brooks Baldwin experienced discomfort in the batting cage, they were shut down, received treatment, and returned to action quickly. Martin Perez felt discomfort on the mound, he was shut down, and they avoided TJS. 

As far as Ky Bush, Prelander Berroa, Mason Adams, Juan Carela and Blake Larson, those were all diagnosed in spring training. Do you have any information about their communications with the team back in October and in the off-season? 

So we are just turning kids loose in the off season?  That doesn't make it better.

[WestEddy]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So we are just turning kids loose in the off season?  That doesn't make it better.

They're employees, not chattel. 

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

They're employees, not chattel. 

The Sox not putting in work with their kids in the off season would explain a lot 

[WhiteSox2023]

47 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

They're employees, not chattel. 

They also aren’t just your average white collar employees.  They sign contracts with clauses regarding engaging in activities that most employers don’t enforce with their employees.  Activities that could impact their ability to play baseball.  And they apply to the offseason as well.

https://www.thebestbaseballblog.com/mlb-player-contracts-forbid-just-about-everything.html

Edited August 14 by WhiteSox2023

[Tnetennba]

So picketing outside of a baseball stadium is the only way to express one’s displeasure with the organization.  What a crock of s%*#. 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Tnetennba said:

So picketing outside of a baseball stadium is the only way to express one’s displeasure with the organization.  What a crock of s%*#. 

???

One key point to remember is that none of Thorpe, Adams and I think the other guy was Juan Carela are/were typical 96-100 mph fb, high velo guys.

All soft tossers, more or less.

And even Bush after his injuries was more in the 93-96 touching 97 range.

[WhiteSox2023]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

???

One key point to remember is that none of Thorpe, Adams and I think the other guy was Juan Carela are/were typical 96-100 mph fb, high velo guys.

All soft tossers, more or less.

And even Bush after his injuries was more in the 93-96 touching 97 range.

I think the post(s) he was referencing were nuked, and rightfully so.  They veered off course from the thread topic.

Thorpe really needs to turn into a legitimate rotation starter, not necessarily an ace, just a #3 or #4.  Otherwise, that Cease trade was a complete bust.  Iriarte and Zavala ain’t it.

Edited August 15 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You don't understand what was a failure about overhauling a guy who was dominating resulting in him falling apart and ALL of his stuff regressing?

Also, a stain is a single negative thing that happened while a red flag is a signifier of things to be concerned about in the future. Glad I could help answer that for you.

I don't know if you follow the box scores, but Schultz was dominating in short outings last year. Apparently, you don't understand how averting greater injury by working on mechanics in the minor leagues constitutes a great success. I suppose AAA championship banners hang forever, prospect careers be damned. 

[caulfield12]

If Schultz can't physically go longer into games without breaking down, Taylor can't survive as a starter and Smith can't find his control...hard to say any of these things constitute success, either.

Let's not forget that Rodon and Crochet only found themselves after battling back successfully through major injuries.

Without those struggles...they wouldn't be the pitchers they have now evolved into.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

42 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I don't know if you follow the box scores, but Schultz was dominating in short outings last year. Apparently, you don't understand how averting greater injury by working on mechanics in the minor leagues constitutes a great success. I suppose AAA championship banners hang forever, prospect careers be damned. 

You'll gobble up whatever is put out by the team, it's wild. 

So the Sox were letting him pitch with bad mechanics his entire career before this year but then decided this year that was over? 

Optimal mechanics aren't even a thing in the first place. Also not sure what mechanics have to do with pitch mixes. No one is talking about triple a banners, but you judge prospects based on progress and regression.

[caulfield12]

AAA banners matter more to the minor league sales teams than they do the major league scouting and development people.

Birmingham might have a really strong record...but there are hardly any legit prospects outside of Montgomery and MacDougal.  Bergolla maybe a utility guy.

[WhiteSox2023]

26 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You'll gobble up whatever is put out by the team, it's wild. 

So the Sox were letting him pitch with bad mechanics his entire career before this year but then decided this year that was over? 

Optimal mechanics aren't even a thing in the first place. Also not sure what mechanics have to do with pitch mixes. No one is talking about triple a banners, but you judge prospects based on progress and regression.

Exactly.  I was going to post this earlier…  why did the Sox even draft him in the first place if they thought his mechanics could potentially lead to an injury?  Okay, perhaps they thought they could fix his poor mechanics?  But if that is the case, why did they just figure it out now instead of working on it right after he was drafted?

Apparently, the Sox wizards of evaluation only pick and choose when to see things.

Smells like 🐂 💩 to me.

Edited August 15 by WhiteSox2023

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You'll gobble up whatever is put out by the team, it's wild. 

So the Sox were letting him pitch with bad mechanics his entire career before this year but then decided this year that was over? 

Optimal mechanics aren't even a thing in the first place. Also not sure what mechanics have to do with pitch mixes. No one is talking about triple a banners, but you judge prospects based on progress and regression.

And Schultz apparently has had a knee issue and hasn't pitched in a while last I looked.  

[nrockway]

9 hours ago, WestEddy said:

I have non-hodgkins lymphoma. However, I first had double vision out of nowhere for a few days. So I went to the hospital, and the doctors looked at my eye to see what the problem was. They thought I might have a tumor behind my eye, so they ordered a CT Scan with contrast. To do that, they do a blood test to check kidney function. My creatinine level was raised, so they sent me to a nephrologist, who was stumped, so he ordered an ultrasound of my kidney, where, lo and behold, they found a tumor. It was only after a biopsy that they could diagnose me. It then took a bone marrow biopsy to figure out how far it spread. They never figured out what caused the double vision, and surmised that the tumor was throwing clots, and I had a stroke of my #2 cranial nerve, which caused the double vision. That's 3 different specialists I had to see before they even had an idea what was up. 

Hope you're doing well now, Eddy.

7 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

They also aren’t just your average white collar employees.  They sign contracts with clauses regarding engaging in activities that most employers don’t enforce with their employees.  Activities that could impact their ability to play baseball.  And they apply to the offseason as well.

https://www.thebestbaseballblog.com/mlb-player-contracts-forbid-just-about-everything.html

The Ron Gant bit is interesting. ATL cut him and paid him 0 dollars of the $4.5mil remaining on his deal. He missed a season then went on to produce ~15 WAR the rest of his career, 6.5 the following two years after the injury. Not like Atlanta needed him, they won the WS, but he doubled up the production of the guy who replaced him (Klesko). Probably could've used the production in 1996 over rookie Jermaine Dye who OPS'd under .300 in the World Series and was traded anyway.

Reminds me of the Bulls second overall pick in 2002, Jay Williams, who got hurt almost exactly the same way after a lackluster rookie season (really lousy draft in hindsight). The Bulls cut him for violating his contract and because they needed the roster spot, but still paid him ~$3mil, roughly half of his remaining salary, and he never played in the NBA again. The buyout was finalized in January 2004; did the good karma result in a White Sox World Series win in 2005? The bad karma clearly didn't hurt the Braves.

The contract stipulations make sense when you're being paid millions of dollars to play with a ball, but the human element seems important; it's more than a game n all that and sometimes 22-year-olds make stupid decisions. The Braves as an organization probably would've benefited on the field if they had just kept Gant too. Probably one of my favorite things things the Bulls/Sox have done.

Not really related to this discussion at all.

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

AAA banners matter more to the minor league sales teams than they do the major league scouting and development people.

Birmingham might have a really strong record...but there are hardly any legit prospects outside of Montgomery and MacDougal.  Bergolla maybe a utility guy.

5th rounder Antonacci looks really good. Adams is obviously legit. Hagen is still probably the most 'legit', but underwhelming. Most of the guys slumming it there are selections from the previous regime or otherwise players you don't expect anything out of. I thought Veras, Tatum or Gladney would see MLB time before Elko, but they all fell off a cliff and were never very good or touted to begin with. At A+, Zavala has looked better, Jeral Perez seems pretty good. Oppor and Ziehl should earn a promotion. A and Rookie league seem to have some actual blue chip talent. Bonemer has made himself into a top tier prospect, Blake Larson is an intriguing prospect. Don't sleep on Shane Murphy. All of these guys and more pass the vibe check and, as we all know, the sport is 90% vibes. This team is clearly less doomed than it was in 2022 in terms of a potential future The real test will be if the org can get the most out Carlson's potential 5-tool kit or if he's the Christian Pache of shortstops.

It bears repeating that many on this board figured Crochet couldn't be a starter (he never threw more than 50 innings!!!), but somehow the non-starter returned two top 50 prospects (one will be a superstar), another guy who clearly belongs in MLB, and a fourth player who will probably be an MLB player. Being so incredibly wrong about Crochet and Colson causes me to doubt the talent evaluation of some around these parts. Being a pessimist and also being wrong is an interesting combination. Couldn't be me. 

I would also just totally ignore MLB.com's system rankings. Nobody actually believes the Dodgers have the best farm system, right? It's marketing BS.

Edited August 15 by nrockway

[oldsox]

4 hours ago, nrockway said:

Hope you're doing well now, Eddy.

The Ron Gant bit is interesting. ATL cut him and paid him 0 dollars of the $4.5mil remaining on his deal. He missed a season then went on to produce ~15 WAR the rest of his career, 6.5 the following two years after the injury. Not like Atlanta needed him, they won the WS, but he doubled up the production of the guy who replaced him (Klesko). Probably could've used the production in 1996 over rookie Jermaine Dye who OPS'd under .300 in the World Series and was traded anyway.

Reminds me of the Bulls second overall pick in 2002, Jay Williams, who got hurt almost exactly the same way after a lackluster rookie season (really lousy draft in hindsight). The Bulls cut him for violating his contract and because they needed the roster spot, but still paid him ~$3mil, roughly half of his remaining salary, and he never played in the NBA again. The buyout was finalized in January 2004; did the good karma result in a White Sox World Series win in 2005? The bad karma clearly didn't hurt the Braves.

The contract stipulations make sense when you're being paid millions of dollars to play with a ball, but the human element seems important; it's more than a game n all that and sometimes 22-year-olds make stupid decisions. The Braves as an organization probably would've benefited on the field if they had just kept Gant too. Probably one of my favorite things things the Bulls/Sox have done.

Not really related to this discussion at all.

5th rounder Antonacci looks really good. Adams is obviously legit. Hagen is still probably the most 'legit', but underwhelming. Most of the guys slumming it there are selections from the previous regime or otherwise players you don't expect anything out of. I thought Veras, Tatum or Gladney would see MLB time before Elko, but they all fell off a cliff and were never very good or touted to begin with. At A+, Zavala has looked better, Jeral Perez seems pretty good. Oppor and Ziehl should earn a promotion. A and Rookie league seem to have some actual blue chip talent. Bonemer has made himself into a top tier prospect, Blake Larson is an intriguing prospect. Don't sleep on Shane Murphy. All of these guys and more pass the vibe check and, as we all know, the sport is 90% vibes. This team is clearly less doomed than it was in 2022 in terms of a potential future The real test will be if the org can get the most out Carlson's potential 5-tool kit or if he's the Christian Pache of shortstops.

It bears repeating that many on this board figured Crochet couldn't be a starter (he never threw more than 50 innings!!!), but somehow the non-starter returned two top 50 prospects (one will be a superstar), another guy who clearly belongs in MLB, and a fourth player who will probably be an MLB player. Being so incredibly wrong about Crochet and Colson causes me to doubt the talent evaluation of some around these parts. Being a pessimist and also being wrong is an interesting combination. Couldn't be me. 

I would also just totally ignore MLB.com's system rankings. Nobody actually believes the Dodgers have the best farm system, right? It's marketing BS.

 

[oldsox]

I hope Pache reads your above post. Lots of valid stuff in there. And funny.

[WestEddy]

4 hours ago, nrockway said:

I would also just totally ignore MLB.com's system rankings. Nobody actually believes the Dodgers have the best farm system, right? It's marketing BS.

I feel FutureSox is a better snapshot than Pipeline, in that the FutureSox guys are watching every affiliate game, and Pipeline guys aren't. 

As far as rankings are concerned, it's much more accurate to grade in groups than to rank one team over another based on the number of guesses on player scores. What's the difference between 5 - 50 FVs and 6? These snapshots all miss the guy who's about to break out, and the guy who's about to get clobbered after the next promotion. 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I feel FutureSox is a better snapshot than Pipeline, in that the FutureSox guys are watching every affiliate game, and Pipeline guys aren't. 

As far as rankings are concerned, it's much more accurate to grade in groups than to rank one team over another based on the number of guesses on player scores. What's the difference between 5 - 50 FVs and 6? These snapshots all miss the guy who's about to break out, and the guy who's about to get clobbered after the next promotion. 

That's why they used weighted averages...let's say your #1 guy is worth 30 or 50 points and your 30 or 50 guy is just one point.

You can have 3 top 15 guys like Boston coming into the season and that would out weigh a team with 5-6 but lower ranked Top 100 guys.

Also, outfielders SS and C have the  most trade value right now, so LAD having four outfielders in the Top 55 and a bunch of SS's is valued higher.

[nrockway]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

I feel FutureSox is a better snapshot than Pipeline, in that the FutureSox guys are watching every affiliate game, and Pipeline guys aren't. 

As far as rankings are concerned, it's much more accurate to grade in groups than to rank one team over another based on the number of guesses on player scores. What's the difference between 5 - 50 FVs and 6? These snapshots all miss the guy who's about to break out, and the guy who's about to get clobbered after the next promotion. 

FutureSox is great. It's just like...the Dodgers are always at the top of these lists and then their guys never actually make it to MLB or otherwise contribute. Rushing and Cartaya were supposed to be these elite catchers. Miller, Stone, Pepiot, Frasso, Nastrini were going to be an elite rotation. Stone and Pepiot are both playing well I guess. Graterol was a prospect and he's a good reliever, but they mighta hoped he remained a starter.

Pages and Busch are probably the only two in recent memory who actually look to be all-star caliber players. Not sure Busch was ever ranked on any lists though.

Thinking about how Washington, incompetent after winning a World Series (sounds familiar), gave up Scherzer AND Trae Turner for Ruiz and Gray. The first guy is OPSing at about .500 right now and the other guy unfortunately hasn't pitched since June 2024. The third guy in that trade is playing in Mexico while the fourth is 27 and in AA.

The Dodgers are very good at ripping teams off, I'll give them that. 

Edited August 15 by nrockway

[T R U]

13 hours ago, WestEddy said:

I don't know if you follow the box scores, but Schultz was dominating in short outings last year. Apparently, you don't understand how averting greater injury by working on mechanics in the minor leagues constitutes a great success. I suppose AAA championship banners hang forever, prospect careers be damned. 

The hope I have here is that they just have him working on things opposed to results, which to me is perfectly fine for someone you are trying to develop.

You're right, in the grand scheme of things Schultz going 15-3 with a 2.50 ERA in the minors means absolutely nothing. If he can develop what he is going to need to be successful at the major league level, that is the most important thing of all. I really won't care if he has an ERA of 10.00 in Charlotte if he comes up to Chicago and is a competent rotation piece with great potential.

I hope its like Colson, where he looked dead in the water in the minor leagues but once they get him onto the MLB roster we see vastly different results.    

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 hours ago, nrockway said:

FutureSox is great. It's just like...the Dodgers are always at the top of these lists and then their guys never actually make it to MLB or otherwise contribute. Rushing and Cartaya were supposed to be these elite catchers. Miller, Stone, Pepiot, Frasso, Nastrini were going to be an elite rotation. Stone and Pepiot are both playing well I guess. Graterol was a prospect and he's a good reliever, but they mighta hoped he remained a starter.

Pages and Busch are probably the only two in recent memory who actually look to be all-star caliber players. Not sure Busch was ever ranked on any lists though.

Thinking about how Washington, incompetent after winning a World Series (sounds familiar), gave up Scherzer AND Trae Turner for Ruiz and Gray. The first guy is OPSing at about .500 right now and the other guy unfortunately hasn't pitched since June 2024. The third guy in that trade is playing in Mexico while the fourth is 27 and in AA.

The Dodgers are very good at ripping teams off, I'll give them that. 

The highest Pepiot was ever ranked was 55th in baseball. He's been a fine MLB starter the past two years, and seems like he'll have a decent career is a middle of the rotation for a while. I'd call that a success.

Nastrini was never a top prospect. Gavin Stone was never higher than 56th in baseball.

Cartaya was a bust and Bobby Miller has been a failed starter for sure and he was a nice prospect. If he became a + RP though, would he actually be a bust?

Rushing is 24 years old and a higher ranked prospect right now than everyone in the Sox system. Help me understand how he's a bust? 

Meanwhile, the last time the White Sox were the #1 farm in baseball during the rebuild resulted in the vast majority of those players busting. 

Pipeline stinks because they're basically a PR arm for baseball and have limited scouting abilities, but they aren't over ranking Dodgers players  in some big conspiracy. What this exercise should do is show that prospects are volatile and the majority of them don't pan out.

Edited August 15 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The highest Pepiot was ever ranked was 55th in baseball. He's been a fine MLB starter the past two years, and seems like he'll have a decent career is a middle of the rotation for a while. I'd call that a success.

Nastrini was never a top prospect. Gavin Stone was never higher than 56th in baseball.

Cartaya was a bust and Bobby Miller has been a failed starter for sure and he was a nice prospect. If he became a + RP though, would he actually be a bust?

Rushing is 24 years old and a higher ranked prospect right now than everyone in the Sox system. Help me understand how he's a bust? 

Meanwhile, the last time the White Sox were the #1 farm in baseball during the rebuild resulted in the vast majority of those players busting. 

Pipeline stinks because they're basically a PR arm for baseball and have limited scouting abilities, but they aren't over ranking Dodgers players  in some big conspiracy. What this exercise should do is show that prospects are volatile and the majority of them don't pan out.

The top take away should clearly be that you can never have enough prospect strength.  Teams that are almost always near the top of the ranks go aggressively EVERYWHERE.  US, Latin America, Asia, etc.  Leave no stone unturned.  There is no so such thing as "too much" when it comes to the minor leagues.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, T R U said:

The hope I have here is that they just have him working on things opposed to results, which to me is perfectly fine for someone you are trying to develop.

You're right, in the grand scheme of things Schultz going 15-3 with a 2.50 ERA in the minors means absolutely nothing. If he can develop what he is going to need to be successful at the major league level, that is the most important thing of all. I really won't care if he has an ERA of 10.00 in Charlotte if he comes up to Chicago and is a competent rotation piece with great potential.

I hope its like Colson, where he looked dead in the water in the minor leagues but once they get him onto the MLB roster we see vastly different results.    

The difference between Colson and Noah is that pitching is much more measurable. It's undeniable that the changes made to Schultz have hurt the quality of his stuff which inherently makes him a worse player without a doubt. It would be one thing if it was just the ballpark or some bad luck this year -- I too couldn't care less about a high ERA if it's simply noise. The problem is, Schultz has earned his results this year for the most part. He's performing at the same level of his stuff.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 8/14/2025 at 8:10 AM, WestEddy said:

I think I've read that Getz felt he had to nail his first 1st rounder, so made a choice they felt they could develop properly. Bannister was already in place, and Fuller wasn't. 

As "bad" as Smith looks like, the Sox avoided an injury. He's pitching with reworked mechanics, and is striking out 12.8 per 9IP at a level he's 3.5 years young for. He's walking guys, but I'd imagine that'll work itself out as he grows into his delivery. 

 

23 hours ago, WestEddy said:

And 4 of the top 6 picks last year were bats. I don't think Getz is telegraphing any fear of developing offensive players. 

States Sox went with pitching in first round because of a lack of Fuller. Proceeds to say not having Fuller did not impact draft selections because rounds 4-6 were bats. 

Make it make sense, por favor. Sounds like excuses of convenience.