12 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

So shouldn't bWAR correct for that overemphasis on framing then?

they probably do since his bWAR is higher isnt it ? 

12 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Im not sure but fWAR seems to put a lot of emphasis on framing . I have no idea if framing stats is Fangraphs baby but it's over rated. If hes throwing out base stealers and picking guys off base and blocking balls in the dirt, and calling a good game those all equally important to stealing strike calls for your pitchers on the rarer than you might think occasions the umps are influenced by guys moving their gloves into the strike zone . 

The problem with bad framing is that it leads to unfavorable counts, and higher pitch counts. Quero cost his team about 13 runs over the season. I believe that Baseball Prospectus has one of the more comprehensive catcher rating systems, although I'm sure someone else could be better. 

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

The problem with bad framing is that it leads to unfavorable counts, and higher pitch counts. Quero cost his team about 13 runs over the season. I believe that Baseball Prospectus has one of the more comprehensive catcher rating systems, although I'm sure someone else could be better. 

Soon it won’t matter.

1 minute ago, hi8is said:

Soon it won’t matter.

The stuff I've read is that the system isn't going to be overused lest a team run themselves out of appeals early in the game. If a catcher could keep the calls that are too near the zone to safely dispute, that still has value. 

2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The stuff I've read is that the system isn't going to be overused lest a team run themselves out of appeals early in the game. If a catcher could keep the calls that are too near the zone to safely dispute, that still has value. 

Yeah it’s not like you get infinite challenges (well, I guess you do if you’re right every time but still)

Edited December 14, 2025Dec 14 by Bob Sacamano

4 hours ago, WestEddy said:

The problem with bad framing is that it leads to unfavorable counts, and higher pitch counts. Quero cost his team about 13 runs over the season. I believe that Baseball Prospectus has one of the more comprehensive catcher rating systems, although I'm sure someone else could be better. 

How accurate are framing measurements?

Has all pitcher-bias been wringed out of them?

Anyway, every team can see those framing ratings.so unless an interested team doesn't care about that, then he'll be sold at depressed value.  At least wait and see how things function under the auto-zone..

Edited December 14, 2025Dec 14 by GreenSox

15 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

How accurate are framing measurements?

Has all pitcher-bias been wringed out of them?

Anyway, every team can see those framing ratings.so unless an interested team doesn't care about that, then he'll be sold at depressed value.  At least wait and see how things function under the auto-zone..

As for Teel, he was around mlb #40 and a Boston top 5 when traded; since then he has "walked the walk" in the majors.  The RedSox fans seem to believe that 1/2 that value is fair value. 

 

On 12/14/2025 at 9:19 AM, WestEddy said:

The problem with bad framing is that it leads to unfavorable counts, and higher pitch counts. Quero cost his team about 13 runs over the season. I believe that Baseball Prospectus has one of the more comprehensive catcher rating systems, although I'm sure someone else could be better. 

That's if you trust those numbers . How does one determine if it's a ball outside the zone that, if framed properly, it COULD have been called a strike ? Or is it that balls in the zone are being called balls by bad umpires ? If you set up low & inside and a pitch hits the zone high & away and called a ball is that a knock against the pitcher  the catcher or the ump ? 

I think most people quoting framing stats and using them seem to trust the people doing the video checks to determine these things. Also don't veteran catchers  and pitchers get more favorable calls than younger ones ? There's so much going on between pitchers, catchers ,umps and location and the speed & shape of pitches that I'm just not going to blindly put my faith into fairly new defensive stats that seem to always be changing. Are there comprehensive videos on youtube out there that shows us how a rookie catcher gets such a bad rap for framing or any catcher for that matter ? They catch thousands of pitches . Seems like a lot of tedious work looking at how a catcher frames every single pitch and determining what is the catcher's fault as opposed the pitcher or the ump on close calls. When a catcher has to move his glove too far its practically impossible to actually frame a pitch. Youre judt.lunging to actually catch it especially on a fastball. Sinkers and split finger pitches or sliders and other breaking pitches with a lot of movement make a lot of umps and catchers  look bad. Also pitching staffs on a rebuilding team or team cycling through a lot of pitchers transitioning from AAA  are all getting used to each other. There's a lot dynamics going on based on familiarity between catchers pitchers and umps.

Sometimes a catcher will set up low and away , the pitch is thrown perfectly hit the spot and the catcher will barely move his glove and it might be called a ball because the ump is setting ump over the catchers inside shoulder. Do catchers with a bad rep for framing get dinged because  reputation becomes a self fulfilling prophesy with statisticians ? Who are the statisticians ? How do I know they are impartial ? Do they do testing where 10 or more of these guys all look at the same videos and grade each pitch and see how they differ? It all seems very subjective. Maybe their methods are flawed. 

Edited December 16, 2025Dec 16 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

Ya, framing stats are a bunch of hooie. Useless.

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

Ya, framing stats are a bunch of hooie. Useless.

Do you mean the stats for framing or the art of framing itself?

Framing will be useless if umpires are ever replaced but for now it is a skill that can change pitching counts and games.

Edited December 16, 2025Dec 16 by WhiteSox2023

5 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Do you mean the stats for framing or the art of framing itself?

Framing will be useless if umpires are ever replaced but for now it is a skill that can change pitching counts and games.

Stats.