Cleveland vs. Chicago 09/21/05 7:05PM CT

[Guest JimH]

We have a manager that has no clue how to strategize in-game, an offense full of easy outs, and pitchers that were overachieving so much during the first half of the year.  It was just a matter before the luck ran out.  I'm just happy we still have a chance to make the playoffs.  Too many people on here have completely abandoned ship, and it's pretty pathetic.  Those people can go be Cubs fans, and pleasure themselves thinking about acquiring J. Damon and R. Furcal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Every manager makes mistakes, but I would venture to say he has one heck of a lot more game knowledge than anybody on this board ... me, you, whomever. Anyone who thinks otherwise overestimates themselves.

 

Luck has nothing to do with this. I would suggest many of these players have been underachieving all year, not overachieving. Pick out just about any player and for long stretches this year they have underachieved. This is not all about the last 7 weeks, but their underachieving has been magnified because Cleveland is playing so well. Remember, there were also people dismissing Cleveland thru much of this year, saying many in their offense had career years last year, and their pitching wouldn't hold up. I was not one who ever doubted their offense could and would perform as they are, and the difference is not hitting coaches but better hitters.

[greg775]

We have been shuffling talent on and off this team for years.

Last year we got rid of Valentin and Lee.

Who do we get rid of now?

 

 

And don't forget Maggs. If we lose PK this is going to start showing up in the standings. We have lost Lee, Maggs, maybe PK and Frank. You can't win with Jermaine Dye and Carl Everett as your pop.

[Balta1701]

Yep, and it's not like the Sox will get relegated from the majors.  There will be a 2006 season, no matter what the outcome of this season is.

well...Selig has talked about contraction for the Twins and Expos before...

[fathom]

Every manager makes mistakes, but I would venture to say he has one heck of a lot more game knowledge than anybody on this board ... me, you, whomever.  Anyone who thinks otherwise overestimates themselves.

 

Luck has nothing to do with this.  I would suggest many of these players have been underachieving all year, not overachieving.  Pick out just about any player and for long stretches this year they have underachieved.  This is not all about the last 7 weeks, but their underachieving has been magnified because Cleveland is playing so well.  Remember, there were also people dismissing Cleveland thru much of this year, saying many in their offense had career years last year, and their pitching wouldn't hold up.  I was not one who ever doubted their offense could and would perform as they are, and the difference is not hitting coaches but better hitters.

 

You and I both noted the Indians easy 2nd half schedule, and said they could definitely be a threat for the division. And as you mention the underachieving aspect of a lot of the players, that's one of the main reasons why I'm very disappointed in Greg Walker's guidance this season. It seems like once one or two guys get hot, whoever was swinging well before them, they go cold. Everett batting 3rd for the entire 2nd half is bad managing though.

[Dick Allen]

Well that's your opinion and you're more than entitled to it.

 

My opinion is the players have stopped performing well.  The same players who were performing better earlier in the year.

 

Last I checked, the game is played in between the lines and to me, that's where most of the credit/blame lies.

I agree you blame the players, but this is the team Ozzie wanted, and the team Kenny assembled. If its not good enough, and they still have the edge for a playoff spot, then someone's opinion on what is good enough to win is wrong isn't it? I really don't see anyone on the roster seriously underperforming from what could be expected. Personally, I really doubt either one of them is in any way, shape or form in trouble even if the Sox lost all their remaining games. I do think if the Sox fail to reach the post season, each of them should be shown the door, as I think if the Sox don't make the post season some lesser position will take a bullet. Maybe Walker. Maybe move Harold into another position and bring in a bench coach with managerial experience.

[greg775]

I'll tell you who I've seen enough of and who surely will be back -- Everett.

I'm not blaming him for the collapse, I've just seen enough of him.

Give me Carlos Lee! Do not give me Carl Everett.

[Dick Allen]

Every manager makes mistakes, but I would venture to say he has one heck of a lot more game knowledge than anybody on this board ... me, you, whomever.  Anyone who thinks otherwise overestimates themselves.

 

Luck has nothing to do with this.  I would suggest many of these players have been underachieving all year, not overachieving.  Pick out just about any player and for long stretches this year they have underachieved.  This is not all about the last 7 weeks, but their underachieving has been magnified because Cleveland is playing so well.  Remember, there were also people dismissing Cleveland thru much of this year, saying many in their offense had career years last year, and their pitching wouldn't hold up.  I was not one who ever doubted their offense could and would perform as they are, and the difference is not hitting coaches but better hitters.

Cleveland took off hitting when they sacked Eddie Murray, who probably has more hitting knowledge than 99% of the people playing or coaching professional baseball.

[Dick Allen]

I'll tell you who I've seen enough of and who surely will be back -- Everett.

I'm not blaming him for the collapse, I've just seen enough of him.

Give me Carlos Lee! Do not give me Carl Everett.

Sox #3 hitter .249 23 homers

Indians #9 hitter .243 23 homers

 

You are right about Everett, although he was pretty good the first 2 months filling in for Thomas. Imagine if the Sox had a guy like Hafner hitting 3rd. It is imperative KW finds offense, big offense this winter.

[Capn12]

Cleveland took off hitting when they sacked Eddie Murray, who probably has more hitting knowledge than 99% of the people playing or coaching professional baseball.

 

Funny how that works sometimes huh. I hate putting all teh blame on a coach, think its teh easy way out. But seriously, would it have taken THAT much effort as teh hitting instructor to let these guys know Elarton is an 86-89 MPH fastbal lguy who leaves it up ALOT...look for it.

[whitesoxmanager]

thank you boston redsox for choking! we are up 4 games on the loss side to those suckers! ha ha ha! they must go 9-1 if we go 5-5

[southsideirish71]

Sox #3 hitter          .249 23 homers

Indians #9 hitter  .243 23 homers

 

You are right about Everett, although he was pretty good the first 2 months filling in for Thomas. Imagine if the Sox had a guy like Hafner hitting 3rd. It is imperative KW finds offense, big offense this winter.

 

We traded away our number 3 hitter last year.

 

Every offseason we pick up some junk and hope it works out for us. The lightening in a bottle theory. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.

[Dick Allen]

Funny how that works sometimes huh. I hate putting all teh blame on a coach, think its teh easy way out. But seriously, would it have taken THAT much effort as teh hitting instructor to let these guys know Elarton is an 86-89 MPH fastbal lguy who leaves it up ALOT...look for it.

You make Elarton get the ball down and its batting practice. The Sox were swinging at fastballs up all night and popping up. I haven't seen so many pop ups since the 2000 playoffs.

[Capn12]

We traded away our number 3 hitter last year.   

 

Every offseason we pick up some junk and hope it works out for us.  The lightening in a bottle theory.  Sometimes it works, usually it doesnt.

 

Fixed the quote.

[Guest JimH]

I agree you blame the players, but this is the team Ozzie wanted, and the team Kenny assembled. If its not good enough, and they still have the edge for a playoff spot, then someone's opinion on what is good enough to win is wrong isn't it? I really don't see anyone on the roster seriously underperforming from what could be expected.  Personally, I really doubt either one of them is in any way, shape or form in trouble even if the Sox lost all their remaining games. I do think if the Sox fail to reach the post season, each of them should be shown the door, as I think if the Sox don't make the post season some lesser position will take a bullet. Maybe Walker. Maybe move Harold into another position and bring in a bench coach with managerial experience.

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I have always respected your insight and I respect it even more after this post.

 

I will say that IMO lots of guys have underachieved ... Uribe is still undisciplined but improving to an extent. Konerko has underperformed in the clutch. Crede has certainly underperformed. Iguchi, for a supposed contact hitter, has struck out over 110 times. Podsednik has underperformed on defense. Guys like Dye, Rowand, Pierzynski have had bad stretches, and Dye has had some bad defensive plays.

 

One key element in this slide was the loss of Thomas. Certainly they weren't counting on him for 500 AB's but he was still dangerous at the plate and made other hitters around him better. And players counted on to pick up the slack have not done so to the level everyone hoped. IMO Carl Everett will not be here next year no matter what.

 

Coaching? Who knows, maybe someone will be a scapegoat, maybe not. Lots of hitters hated Hriniak and some couldn't do s*** with him as hitting coach. Von Joshua, that other guy they had ... when does it end? Get more contact hitters and wear the other team down. If you are stuck with contracts or some guy has an overriding skill which enhances his value, then fill in elsewhere.

 

Every team in the league faces these same dilemnas every year, all year long.

[Whitewashed in '05]

I have always respected your insight and I respect it even more after this post.

 

I will say that IMO lots of guys have underachieved ... Uribe is still undisciplined but improving to an extent.  Konerko has underperformed in the clutch.  Crede has certainly underperformed.  Iguchi, for a supposed contact hitter, has struck out over 110 times.  Podsednik has underperformed on defense.  Guys like Dye, Rowand, Pierzynski have had bad stretches, and Dye has had some bad defensive plays.

 

One key element in this slide was the loss of Thomas.  Certainly they weren't counting on him for 500 AB's but he was still dangerous at the plate and made other hitters around him better.  And players counted on to pick up the slack have not done so to the level everyone hoped.  IMO Carl Everett will not be here next year no matter what.

 

Coaching?  Who knows, maybe someone will be a scapegoat, maybe not.  Lots of hitters hated Hriniak and some couldn't do s*** with him as hitting coach.  Von Joshua, that other guy they had ... when does it end?  Get more contact hitters and wear the other team down.  If you are stuck with contracts or some guy has an overriding skill which enhances his value, then fill in elsewhere. 

 

Every team in the league faces these same dilemnas every year, all year long.

 

Well you are right, you can only blame the coaches for so much but when Uribe has to go outside of the team for Hriniak to improve his swing, isn't that saying something?

[fathom]

One key element in this slide was the loss of Thomas.  Certainly they weren't counting on him for 500 AB's but he was still dangerous at the plate and made other hitters around him better.  And players counted on to pick up the slack have not done so to the level everyone hoped.  IMO Carl Everett will not be here next year no matter what.

 

Every team in the league faces these same dilemnas every year, all year long.

 

Would you suggest that KW and Ozzie bought into the standings too much around the deadlines, and were too willing to settle for what they had? I know that Huff and Griffey Jr. weren't realistic options, but there were definitely some better players available that could have been our DH.

[greg775]

If all goes well travel wise I will be in Vegas tomorrow in time to bet parlays involving the biggest locks of the year.

We lose to Minnie and Cleve beats KC.

I might as well make some money off this total utter collapse.

[Dick Allen]

Well you are right, you can only blame the coaches for so much but when Uribe has to go outside of the team for Hriniak to improve his swing, isn't that saying something?

Frank went to Hriniak a few years ago as well. To add more to the irony, Hriniak was fired by the White Sox. Obviously different coaches get through to different players, especially hitting coaches. There may be no reason for it. The thing that looks bad with this particular case is Uribe was pretty much struggling for most of the season, spends a couple hours with Hriniak and suddenly he starts looking more and more like Tejada.

[fathom]

We traded away our number 3 hitter last year.   

 

Every offseason we pick up some junk and hope it works out for us.  The lightening in a bottle theory.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.

 

If we don't make the playoffs, and let PK go via free agency, I'm willing to bet that you'll read stuff in the press along the lines of "we're looking forward to adding more speed and gap hitting to the roster".

[Guest JimH]

Well you are right, you can only blame the coaches for so much but when Uribe has to go outside of the team for Hriniak to improve his swing, isn't that saying something?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let's clarify something. Walker brought Hriniak in, not Uribe. Uribe also credited Walker a great deal for this recent performance uptick.

 

To me, that is smart and it's a sign of strength. Let's bring in a consultant, a different voice sometimes makes a difference. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Businesses do that all the time, the Sox have done that for years.

 

I am ambivalent on Greg Walker for the record. I really don't care. However I tend to place much more blame on players than coaches. It's not like I'm related to Greg Walker, I frankly do not care, other than I see the value in consistency with a coaching staff, within reason.

[Capn12]

Hriniak got through to 2 of our players in the mid 90s, and the rest of the lineup didn't ever seem to clinch on to his teachings. Its that way with any hitting coach. As a MLB hitter, you aren't going to easily change your swing mechanics after years of self-training. I do think way too much blame gets put at the feet of the hitting coaches. Moreso, I just want Walk to get the right gameplan to our hitters with respect to the pitcher they are facing THAT NIGHT.

[Dick Allen]

Hriniak got through to 2 of our players in the mid 90s, and the rest of the lineup didn't ever seem to clinch on to his teachings. Its that way with any hitting coach. As a MLB hitter, you aren't going to easily change your swing mechanics after years of self-training. I do think way too much blame gets put at the feet of the hitting coaches. Moreso, I just want Walk to get the right gameplan to our hitters with respect to the pitcher they are facing THAT NIGHT.

That's the thing. I really have no feeling on Walker one way or the other either. But it would be nice if they took a different approach at Santana tomorrow night. Taking all his fastballs and swinging aimlessly at his change gets you shutout, and possibly no hit.

[southsideirish71]

That's the thing. I really have no feeling on Walker one way or the other either. But it would be nice if they took a different approach at Santana tomorrow night. Taking all his fastballs and swinging aimlessly at his change gets you shutout, and possibly no hit.

 

 

Well its going to get ugly for the offense. Lets see if they have any balls.

 

We face Santana tomorrow night. Then Cy Lohse who f***ed us up last time. Then we face Radke and then our course the 4 horseman of death for the white sox offense, Lefty, never seen before, good change, wild (Liriano)

[Balta1701]

Well its going to get ugly for the offense.  Lets see if they have any balls.

 

We face Santana tomorrow night.  Then Cy Lohse who f***ed us up last time.  Then we face Radke and then our course the 4 horseman of death for the white sox offense,  Lefty, never seen before, good change, wild (Liriano)

I believe Minny flipped their rotation aroudn and Radke is no longer pitching on Saturday

[greg775]

I tell you I can't blame our fans if they don't show up more than 15,000 per game for the Twins.

I mean yes if you love and cherish any and every baseball game, by all means, go, but obviously cheering for the team isn't helping this team get its head out of its ass (see 2 of 3 losses vs. Cleve and all the Angels losses at home).

So there's no reason to go to "support" the team.

They're gonna win or lose regardless.

If I lived in chicago I'd want to go just for love of baseball but I dont see how Moronotti or anybody can blame our fans if they fail to show.