Vance Law Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Beltran's the only one ranked higher who played pretty much a full season. http://baseballmusings.com/ Interesting, not just where BA ranks, but that Vernon Wells and Torii Hunter rank just below league average. Rowand above average, Sizemore below average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Baseball Musings says hi to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 If this proves anything, it's that there isn't currently a good metric for evaluating how good a player is defensively Rowand is above average, but something that suggests Wells, Hunter, and Sizemore are below average is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautox Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 i agree with wite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RME JICO Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I don't watch baseball games other than the White Sox, and the only times I see Wells or Hunter is on ESPN Web Gems. However, even though they make a ton of highlight reel catches, it is possible that they also misplay other balls that don't get shown on the highlights, or get bad jumps. I would think this metric is fairly accurate. It lists Pods as under average along with Manny, Griffey, CLee, Magglio, and Bonds. It can't be that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox9 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 This report was published by Kenny Williams. Expect a trade for Wells straight up for BA... Kenny faxed this over to the Jays yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 It seems like none of these new exotic defensive stat formulas are quite right. They all seem to favor some things abnormally, and ignore other factors. But I bet if you could combine some basic defensive numbers (FPct, RF, ZR) with an average ranking of a handful of these lists, you might get a good picture. Then again, you might get a defensive BCS, and that isn't exactly ideal. What do people here think is/are the best measures of defensive ability? Can numbers even really tell the story? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Im not really surprised about Hunter being lower than normal. He still made those web gems but overall id say for him... he had a down year defensively. What I dont understand is how Sizemore and Wells would be rated below avg. Both of them should be near the top of every defensive ranking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 While I don't think you can trust just this one by its lonesome, the fact that you keep seeing Brian near the top of all these defensive ratings either shows he can fool all the SABR guys, or that he's actually a damn good defensive CF.......which I think he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Yeah, I definitely saw Hunter on a daily basis, and he definitely was not below average. He wasn't GG worthy (though he did make one of the greatest catches of his career), but he wasn't "below average" defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 09:53 AM) Yeah, I definitely saw Hunter on a daily basis, and he definitely was not below average. He wasn't GG worthy (though he did make one of the greatest catches of his career), but he wasn't "below average" defensively. Hunter was 'below average' when you compare him to 'average' for Hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 09:55 AM) Hunter was 'below average' when you compare him to 'average' for Hunter. true enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 10:11 AM) true enough Actually, I have heard/read several reports about Hunter not being close to the defender he once was because of that injury. Also, I don't think he always gets particularly great reads or jumps on the ball. He is great at going back on the ball or stealing home runs, but he doesn't strike me as someone who comes in on the ball particularly well or that takes great routes to the ball. I think he may get pumped up a little because of some of his highlight catches just like Aaron Rowand did. Some of the best CF's don't make a lot of highlight reel catches because they get to the ball so easily because of the routes they take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 11:29 AM) Actually, I have heard/read several reports about Hunter not being close to the defender he once was because of that injury. Also, I don't think he always gets particularly great reads or jumps on the ball. He is great at going back on the ball or stealing home runs, but he doesn't strike me as someone who comes in on the ball particularly well or that takes great routes to the ball. I think he may get pumped up a little because of some of his highlight catches just like Aaron Rowand did. Some of the best CF's don't make a lot of highlight reel catches because they get to the ball so easily because of the routes they take. That's a desrpition of BA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 12:35 PM) That's a desrpition of BA. Exactly! The reason Rowand makes these great diving catches and runs into walls because he gets there when the ball does. BA sees the ball hit, runs the the spot, turns around and catches it. The ability to read a ball immediately off the bat makes you better than one who has to dive everytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick0984 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(Athomeboy_2000 @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 01:55 PM) Exactly! The reason Rowand makes these great diving catches and runs into walls because he gets there when the ball does. BA sees the ball hit, runs the the spot, turns around and catches it. The ability to read a ball immediately off the bat makes you better than one who has to dive everytime. but diving is so much more fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(Athomeboy_2000 @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 01:55 PM) Exactly! The reason Rowand makes these great diving catches and runs into walls because he gets there when the ball does. BA sees the ball hit, runs the the spot, turns around and catches it. The ability to read a ball immediately off the bat makes you better than one who has to dive everytime. Yeah ... you're right. But whatever Rowand lacked in skills, he did his damndest to make up for with hustle. That's why I am such an Aaron Rowand fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 03:53 PM) He wasn't GG worthy (though he did make one of the greatest catches of his career), but he wasn't "below average" defensively. I bet if you asked Aaron Gleeman what he thought of Hunter's defense this year, he'd say below average. Hunter was slow out there -- mainly due to the injury -- and thus had to dive for a lot of balls that normally he could make while doing cartwheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 12:55 AM) If this proves anything, it's that there isn't currently a good metric for evaluating how good a player is defensively And such is the joy of baseball. I'm guessing there was an argument after the first game was played and someone pulled out a ledger and started writing down numbers. It has ony improved slightly since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 11:29 AM) Actually, I have heard/read several reports about Hunter not being close to the defender he once was because of that injury. Also, I don't think he always gets particularly great reads or jumps on the ball. He is great at going back on the ball or stealing home runs, but he doesn't strike me as someone who comes in on the ball particularly well or that takes great routes to the ball. I think he may get pumped up a little because of some of his highlight catches just like Aaron Rowand did. Some of the best CF's don't make a lot of highlight reel catches because they get to the ball so easily because of the routes they take. He has always gotten good reads on balls. His good reads plus his athleticism are what have made him the CFer he has been in the past. He sometimes misjudges his own athleticism, and has made dumb plays (read: ALDSx2), but he has pretty much always gotten good reads. So, in this case, I'll go by what my two eyes tell me over your hearsay. QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 03:51 PM) I bet if you asked Aaron Gleeman what he thought of Hunter's defense this year, he'd say below average. Hunter was slow out there -- mainly due to the injury -- and thus had to dive for a lot of balls that normally he could make while doing cartwheels. I respect Gleeman's opinion, but from what I saw of Hunter, he looked average to slightly above average. He wasn't Hunter of the past, and I don't think I've ever stated anything to the contrary, but from what I could tell, he was still solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 03:42 PM) So, in this case, I'll go by what my two eyes tell me over your hearsay. I respect Gleeman's opinion, but from what I saw of Hunter, he looked average to slightly above average. He wasn't Hunter of the past, and I don't think I've ever stated anything to the contrary, but from what I could tell, he was still solid. There can be a difference between a player being "solid" and a player being "above average", especially in a league with roughly 15 center fielders. Being below average could mean that there is an Anderson, a Wells, a Granderson, an Ichiro, and a couple others (just guessing on names) who got to a few more balls than you. There's no shame in being average when above average is Brian Anderson and Vernon Wells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 11:42 PM) I respect Gleeman's opinion, but from what I saw of Hunter, he looked average to slightly above average. He wasn't Hunter of the past, and I don't think I've ever stated anything to the contrary, but from what I could tell, he was still solid. Meh. To me, he looked quite slow, especially after the injuries. A healthy Hunter could still play defense, but when he wasn't healthy, he looked quite bad out there. See ALDS Game 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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