If the team is set

[Steve9347]

Or even "caliber" for our American readers.

 

That's what I get for going to Northern Michigan University for a year!

[effectivelywild]

I wasn't orgasmic about any of the moves made this offseason, but none of them made me want to run straight to the bottle, which is a plus, I guess, given an offseason filled with monster contracts given to the likes of Meche, and that's not even getting into the Soriano and Zito contracts. I mean, those are good players, but still...

Here's my take on this offseason: there market for players with any sort of skills, even if it's merely to throw a ball 60'6" periodically was ridiculous. Last year's team basically collapsed, despite the fact that it was talented enough to make an October run. So 2007 comes down to players rebounding. If our starters collapse again, there's not much hope for the team, and I'd rather have our current rotation than one in which we mortgaged the next few years for Zito. If Buehrle can return to form and Vazquez can figure out how to not come totally unhinged the third time through the order, I like our chances. Yes, Thome and Dye are good regression candidates, but it'd also be hard for Posednik and Uribe to have worse years than they had last year. And if they do, DFA the bums. Pods at least. I still say there's a decent chance that Anderson shows at least modest improvement, and while I would have liked more of an immediate return for Garcia and McCarthy, I'm happy to see the front office recognize that getting good young arms, while maybe not leading to an immediate impact, let's the team stay competitive for the coming years. Call me wishy-washy, but I'd rather root for a team like the White Sox than the Marlins---championships are great, but it's a long long summer when you know your boys aren't going to be contending any time soon.

Edited February 9, 2007 by effectivelywild

[shoota]

What? Not every offseason can bring in Javier Vasquez and Jim Thome (look where that got us...)

 

Hence, some offseasons are better than others. For whatever reasons, this one was not as good as others.

 

 

I'm sure you said the same when all we did was bring in some Japanese 2B, an aging starter in El Duque, traded El Caballo for Scotty Pods, and brought in a "nut job" in AJ Pierzynski.

 

You're wrong.

 

 

 

Perhaps you missed the part where they make $20 mill a year and up (except Tejada of course, who is just involved in steroid rumors all the time), and the fact that none of them are even close to Uribe defensively.

 

And if you are actually going to use gold gloves to indicate how good a player is defensively, then you've lost your mind. I use the term "gold-glove caliber" because when used, people instantly equate it with good defense. Derek Jeter isn't half the defensive SS Uribe is.

 

The only real alternative to Uribe this offseason was a similar player in Alex Gonzalez. Did you really want Alex Gonzalez?

 

...unless of course there were alternatives that you knew of that KW did not

 

No, you didn't. You said: "No, you just don't appreciate a SS that can hit the ball past the pitcher, and you apparently don't appreciate gold glove defense at SS as well.

 

So retro1983hat's post was accurate.

Edited February 8, 2007 by shoota

[witesoxfan]

No, you didn't. You said: "No, you just don't appreciate a SS that can hit the ball past the pitcher, and you apparently don't appreciate gold glove defense at SS as well.

 

So retro1983hat's post was accurate.

 

lol

 

This link should help you out a bit

[CanOfCorn]

I don't think Dye will have another good season. I don't necessary think Konerko would, although he's usually good for .280/30/100. I also don't think Thome is any younger this year. I think Jenks will actually probably have a better year because he is in shape.

 

I liked the 2004/2005 offseason moves very much, and I thought the team had a strong chance to win the division if Podsednik could have a good year. Now that I know more about this player, I would say the chances of him ever producing another good season 2 years later and a couple of injuries down the road are slim to none.

 

Vazquez has not been able to pitch in the AL. This is not fantasy, this is fact. In two seasons he has been subpar and frankly unacceptable. His best years are probably behind him, and he has been regressing psychologically rather than progressing. What do you see that you like? His stuff? Great. Stuff only goes so far when you are completely retarded.

 

The White Sox needed to improve the starting pitching, the bullpen and needed to address the leadoff hitter. They made their starting pitching worse in the short run on a high risk move by subtracting an innings eater and their best prospect and adding a failed major leaguer and two projects that may pay off by 08 or 09. They made their bullpen better. A+ on that front. They addressed their leadoff hitter by going on the cheap with what turns out to be not only a 0 tool AAAA player, but now an injured 0 tool AAAA player.

 

I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but this offseason SUCKED in my opinion.

 

Alrighty then...what would you have done? And let me add this before you respond, you have to do it in the style of the White Sox, not the XBox.

[Hideaway Lights]

I would have kept McCarthy and Garcia and kept the entire team intact for one more run in 2007, and traded Vazquez for anything I could get from him in the NL.

 

What they got for Garcia is pretty much the laughingstock of this offseason, and what they got for McCarthy is fine but the reasons why they traded him (if they intended on contending in 2007) are totally baffling.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Hideaway Lights

[Hideaway Lights]

So you were/are ok with the Sox being a 85-95 loss team in 2008-2010?

 

Absolutely. If you told me I would win another pennant or world series in 2007, I would've taken a 120 loss season in 2008. I would rather have won two world titles as the Marlins an than won one as the White Sox, which is all we're likely going to have for right now.

 

Sustaining 80+ win seasons is not good enough. The team is good enough to win 83-87 in 2007 (not nearly good enough to win the toughest division in baseball), and MAY be good enough to win 83-87 in 2008, but 2008 is contigent on a s***load of things.

[witesoxfan]

I would have kept McCarthy and Garcia and kept the entire team intact for one more run in 2007, and traded Vazquez for anything I could get from him in the NL.

 

What they got for Garcia is pretty much the laughingstock of this offseason, and what they got for McCarthy is fine but the reasons why they traded him (if they intended on contending in 2007) are totally baffling.

 

So you were willing to gamble on Garcia's 88 MPH superheater and McCarthy's insane home run rate and mediocre ERA out of the pen, and just hoped and prayed that it worked? It didn't work last year, and there were very few indications - if any at all - of them bouncing back and having good years. Garcia's splitter looked cool and it helped him throw back to back 1 hitters, but how are you to know that is going to be back next year and he'll be able to maintain success and consistency with it for the entire season? And I really don't think you can depend upon McCarthy moreso than Gavin Floyd. McCarthy may give you a better ERA, but there are severe durability issues from a pitcher who has 180 IP expectations out of him when threw 80+ innings out of the pen last year. In that regard, Floyd is a better option. It's really just a matter of whether he can keep his ERA in the 5.00 range or not.

 

I just don't see how seeing if one more ride would have been a better option, or how the Sox would have been that much better off with Garcia and McCarthy over Vazquez and Floyd or whoever.

 

(and for what it's worth, KW hasn't been the laughingstock of an offseason since Todd Ritchie was around. Bill Bavasi takes the cake, what with his Soriano for Ramirez and his Jose Vidro acquisition. Him sending Bazardo off to Detroit is the cherry on top)

[NorthSideSox72]

Absolutely. If you told me I would win another pennant or world series in 2007, I would've taken a 120 loss season in 2008. I would rather have won two world titles as the Marlins an than won one as the White Sox, which is all we're likely going to have for right now.

 

Sustaining 80+ win seasons is not good enough. The team is good enough to win 83-87 in 2007 (not nearly good enough to win the toughest division in baseball), and MAY be good enough to win 83-87 in 2008, but 2008 is contigent on a s***load of things.

GM's don't win pennants, the players and coaches (mostly the players) do. GM's have a different job - they keep the club competitive with the right talent. The GM sets the table, and its up to the guys on the field to execute. KW, this offseason, set the table so that we'd be competitive for the next 3 or 4 years. That means we get 3 or 4 good shots at a title. That is a LOT better than 1 shot.

[Hideaway Lights]

A guy who cannot pitch in the AL is our fourth starter, and we have unproven guys competing for a fifth starter. In that division, I don't see how anyone could think a team chock full of question marks not only at SP but at at least three (maybe more with injuries) lineup slots can do anything realistically but compete for second or third.

 

Regarding Garcia, I would've been a lot more comfortable with Garcia than Vazquez as a 4th starter. It you're asking me if I'd rather have Garcia, who has the better mental makeup but worse physical makeup or Vazquez, who has everything physically but is a headcase, I will take Garcia every time. Gavin Floyd has been rocked at every point in his major league career thus far. Garcia is a World Champion who has pitched complete games deep in the playoffs. And yet we essentially traded them for each other? Is that a joke?

 

As for McCarthy, I would have rather gone in with McCarthy as a starter, like everyone else wanted him to be, than the role he was extremely uncomfortable in last year. If you think that any starter can become a reliever and vice versa without there being at least an adjustment period, you're high. Also, there are no guarantees they ever even adjust. Most pitchers cannot do both well.

 

What was everyone's opinion of McCarthy before he got traded? Seems like everyone was saying "can't wait to see BMac starting...like he always should have been." Now that he's been traded, it's like "so long, bum".

 

I just don't see why very many folks on this board are suddenly KW apologists for every single move he makes.

 

 

 

GM's don't win pennants, the players and coaches (mostly the players) do. GM's have a different job - they keep the club competitive with the right talent. The GM sets the table, and its up to the guys on the field to execute. KW, this offseason, set the table so that we'd be competitive for the next 3 or 4 years. That means we get 3 or 4 good shots at a title. That is a LOT better than 1 shot.

 

The club will not be in a position to compete for a division title this year, IMHO.

[Dick Allen]

GM's don't win pennants, the players and coaches (mostly the players) do. GM's have a different job - they keep the club competitive with the right talent. The GM sets the table, and its up to the guys on the field to execute. KW, this offseason, set the table so that we'd be competitive for the next 3 or 4 years. That means we get 3 or 4 good shots at a title. That is a LOT better than 1 shot.

I don't see how anyone can possibly say he has set this team up for the next 3 or 4 years. I did like the Garcia trade. Hated the McCarthy move and was alright with Erstad, and liked the Sisco move. I also didn't think much of the Aardsma move, as I think Cotts will bounce back and while probably never reaching his 2005 success, (who would?) is going to be a decent LH reliever. There is no one KW acquired who could instantly be considered an impact player. Its still a crapshoot. As far as the future is concerned, as long as people are filing through the turnstiles, the payroll will be high. I don't think the White Sox will go to a full blown rebuilding unless attendance really falls. There are a lot of people making long-term committments to suites and other high priced seating. Rebuilding immediately after they make the committment would not be a wise thing to do.

[NorthSideSox72]

A guy who cannot pitch in the AL is our fourth starter, and we have unproven guys competing for a fifth starter. In that division, I don't see how anyone could think a team chock full of question marks not only at SP but at at least three (maybe more with injuries) lineup slots can do anything realistically but compete for second or third.

 

Regarding Garcia, I would've been a lot more comfortable with Garcia than Vazquez as a 4th starter. It you're asking me if I'd rather have Garcia, who has the better mental makeup but worse physical makeup or Vazquez, who has everything physically but is a headcase, I will take Garcia every time. Gavin Floyd has been rocked at every point in his major league career thus far. Garcia is a World Champion who has pitched complete games deep in the playoffs. And yet we essentially traded them for each other? Is that a joke?

 

As for McCarthy, I would have rather gone in with McCarthy as a starter, like everyone else wanted him to be, than the role he was extremely uncomfortable in last year. If you think that any starter can become a reliever and vice versa without there being at least an adjustment period, you're high. Also, there are no guarantees they ever even adjust. Most pitchers cannot do both well.

 

What was everyone's opinion of McCarthy before he got traded? Seems like everyone was saying "can't wait to see BMac starting...like he always should have been." Now that he's been traded, it's like "so long, bum".

 

I just don't see why very many folks on this board are suddenly KW apologists for every single move he makes.

The club will not be in a position to compete for a division title this year, IMHO.

By "guy who cannot pitch in the AL", do you mean the guy who was our second best starter in the second half of last year? The one whose ERA dropped half a run in the second half and whose numbers all improved as the year went on? The same one whose K/BB and other peripheral numbers all indicate a stronger pitcher than his W/L record reflects? For a guy who supposedly can't pitch in the league, why did he get better as the year went on, even when players started seeing him more often?

 

You can argue that McCarthy should have been starting, and there are certainly some reasons that would have been good. And Javy definitely had some problems, which he started to correct as the year went on (where as B-Mac was never able to adjust). But your statement that JV cannot pitch in the AL is ridiculous.

[Dick Allen]

Vazquez's ERA was higher than league average and he was below .500 on a team that won 90 games, pretty much the story of his career with a couple of years of exception. To expect any more than this in 2007 is dreaming. He's struck out a lot of people before.

[NorthSideSox72]

Vazquez's ERA was higher than league average and he was below .500 on a team that won 90 games, pretty much the story of his career with a couple of years of exception. To expect any more than this in 2007 is dreaming. He's struck out a lot of people before.

I don't think he's a CY candidate or anything, but I think he's able to have a year much like his second half last year. Mid-4 ERA, good peripherals, and getting past the 5th inning more often than not.

 

But to say he can't pitch in the AL is laughable. And I think we will in fact compete for a playoff spot this year, as long as we don't have serious injury problems.

[Hideaway Lights]

I don't think he's a CY candidate or anything, but I think he's able to have a year much like his second half last year. Mid-4 ERA, good peripherals, and getting past the 5th inning more often than not.

 

But to say he can't pitch in the AL is laughable. And I think we will in fact compete for a playoff spot this year, as long as we don't have serious injury problems.

 

I don't see what evidence there is that this headcase can keep it together for an entire season.

[NorthSideSox72]

I don't see what evidence there is that this headcase can keep it together for an entire season.

So you don't see that he's got a 4.35 career ERA? Or that he's pitched 200+ innings for 7 straight years, and had an ERA during those years in the low 4's? Again, he's no ace, but evidence is clear that he can contribute for a full season.

[southsideirish71]

Anyone that says that they would accept 3 80 to 90 loss seasons in the hopes of one world series are not being totally realistic. We all said for years, if only they could win one world series I would be happy. Well guess what they did, and 90 win seasons are still not good enough. If we went to 80-90 loss seasons it would cripple this organization for a long time. KW is protecting an investment, that a lot of season ticket holders and partial owners have. Does everyone want to win the world series every year, sure. Do you want to toe the line and spend the season ticket package plan to keep the team afloat over the next 3 years while the team is the marlins. NO.

[southsider2k5]

Anyone that says that they would accept 3 80 to 90 loss seasons in the hopes of one world series are not being totally realistic. We all said for years, if only they could win one world series I would be happy. Well guess what they did, and 90 win seasons are still not good enough. If we went to 80-90 loss seasons it would cripple this organization for a long time. KW is protecting an investment, that a lot of season ticket holders and partial owners have. Does everyone want to win the world series every year, sure. Do you want to toe the line and spend the season ticket package plan to keep the team afloat over the next 3 years while the team is the marlins. NO.

 

Thank you for being honest. I remember when people used to say stuff like that all of the time in response to that question. Oddly enough, all of the people who said they didn't care what happened as long as the Sox won a World Series have all disappeared.

[CanOfCorn]

I don't understand this "keeping the team intact so we can win a World Series" argument. How did we win in 2004? But semi-blowing up the team. Getting rid of the big boppers and building around pitching.

 

I don't mind the Garcia trade and I was completely taken aback by the McCarthy trade, not sure if it should have happened, but now that I've stepped back and seen what KW is trying to do, I understand it, even though I still don't necessarily like it.

 

And one more thing about your argument Hideaway, it's a lot easier to get to the playoffs and/or World Series when you are consistently a good team, the only exception to that rule would be the Florida Marlins.

[Hideaway Lights]

So you don't see that he's got a 4.35 career ERA? Or that he's pitched 200+ innings for 7 straight years, and had an ERA during those years in the low 4's? Again, he's no ace, but evidence is clear that he can contribute for a full season.

 

Evaluating ERA for a career spanning both leagues might just be a little misleading, especially when there are so many differences (quality of teams, DH, style of play).

[Hideaway Lights]

Thats why this debate is going no where. Most of us feel that the Sox will be able to compete this year, and in future years. You dont. Pretty much end of story.

 

Yes, well most fans of a team generally think their team can compete any year.

 

They will be in the race, surely, but as it stands now, with no leadoff hitter and three dead spots in the lineup card, with a shaky 4th and totally unknown 5th starter position I see this team as significantly worse than last year's team in every area except the bullpen.

[NorthSideSox72]

Yes, well most fans of a team generally think their team can compete any year. They will be in the race, surely, but as it stands now, with no leadoff hitter and three dead spots in the lineup card, with a shaky 4th and totally unknown 5th starter position I see this team as significantly worse than last year's team in every area except the bullpen.

So, you agree they will be in the race, which is what we were saying. And you think that somehow this team is significantly worse than last year outside of the bullpen, even though we have the exact same starting lineup and 4 of the same 5 starting pitchers? In other words, you think the team got significantly worse, purely because of the 5th starter slot?

[CanOfCorn]

Who has improved in the AL Central?

 

Twins...not really, talk about rotation question marks. Santana and......Bonser? ok, well, then who?

Detroit...Sheffield? Mmm, not so much. He's playing for his favorite manager, but he's pushing 40 with a bad wrist. The pitchers, I think, will feel the same effects the White Sox pitchers had last year.

Royals...well, Gload will get them another win...ok, maybe not.

 

Cleveland...they are the only ones that have upgraded. Bullpen wise, though, is a crapshoot considering the age and injury history of the guys they picked up. Healthy, it could be lights out. Otherwise, not so good. Peralta needs a gut check. Sabathia needs to be in shape. Lee needs to put a consistent season together. They are the team that scares me the most.

 

I think the AL Central will be as tough, but not tougher than any other division in the league. The Sox will compete this year, next year and the year after.

 

And personally, I'll take 83-87 victory years over 110-120 loss years any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

[witesoxfan]

Regarding Garcia, I would've been a lot more comfortable with Garcia than Vazquez as a 4th starter. It you're asking me if I'd rather have Garcia, who has the better mental makeup but worse physical makeup or Vazquez, who has everything physically but is a headcase, I will take Garcia every time. Gavin Floyd has been rocked at every point in his major league career thus far. Garcia is a World Champion who has pitched complete games deep in the playoffs. And yet we essentially traded them for each other? Is that a joke?

 

Yeah, the Sox didn't get some pitcher named Gio Gonzalez, who isn't the #4 prospect in the organization or anything. Come the hell on dude, you can't say "yet we essentially traded (Garcia and Floyd) for each other" and then forget about the second best minor league pitcher in the White Sox organization who just so happened to be acquired in that trade. That's ridiculous.

 

Add to the fact that Garcia was gone after this year, especially in the current market for starting pitchers (and he would have been gone, seeing as how he has diminishing skills and his new contract would be after his prime years) whereas Vazquez is probably going to be a league average starter - or somehwere in the whereabouts - and is under White Sox control through 2008. It just doesn't make sense at all, neither in terms of baseball nor business sense.

 

As for McCarthy, I would have rather gone in with McCarthy as a starter, like everyone else wanted him to be, than the role he was extremely uncomfortable in last year. If you think that any starter can become a reliever and vice versa without there being at least an adjustment period, you're high. Also, there are no guarantees they ever even adjust. Most pitchers cannot do both well.

 

There is an adjustment period, sure...does the adjustment period take all year? Because if so, you are being contradictoral in letting McCarthy off the hook while tearing Vazquez a new asshole. Vazquez has not pitched in the same league in back to back years since 2002-2003 - how in the hell is a guy supposed to adjust to the league if he's given 6 months to figure them out?

 

Basically, either you have no reason to back McCarthy, or you have to give Vazquez a chance to prove himself. Does it seriously make sense to give McCarthy time to adjust to relieving (which probably takes less work and time) while throwing Vazquez to the wolves because he got rocked in 2 months of the year? Think about it for a second

 

What was everyone's opinion of McCarthy before he got traded? Seems like everyone was saying "can't wait to see BMac starting...like he always should have been." Now that he's been traded, it's like "so long, bum".

 

It was the initial overreaction about why the f*** KW was trading McCarthy, then the stepping back period, looking at what he had acquired, and realizing McCarthy hasn't proven s*** as a pitcher - reliever or starter - in the MLB, and that he did get back a pretty solid package in return.

 

He's not a bum, but he's not likely to be Cy Young or a #2 EVER in his career. Why would he do it THIS year?

 

I just don't see why very many folks on this board are suddenly KW apologists for every single move he makes.

 

If a guy brings a World Series to a city that hasn't had one in 88 years, he's going to be loved, and sometimes people will forgive him for questionable moves because they have paid off in the past. Whether it's right or wrong can't be determined for a while - like, you know, until the players themselves start playing.

 

The club will not be in a position to compete for a division title this year, IMHO.

 

Really? I had no idea you felt that way.

 

Seeing as how the talent level on the team has only improved, I don't know HOW you could feel that way, but atleast you've cleared it up.

 

 

 

I don't see what evidence there is that this headcase can keep it together for an entire season.

 

4 good months, great peripherals, great stuff, second year in the league - I'm a broken record that's not about to turn off.

Edited February 12, 2007 by witesoxfan

[Hideaway Lights]

witesoxfan,

 

making the analogy that I'm not being fair with Vazquez in light of my stance on McCarthy doesn't make any sense.

 

For one thing, Vazquez is a veteran pitcher, not a second year player with less than 150 innings logged at the big league level.

 

For another thing, Vazquez did not change roles, he changed leagues.

 

For another thing, Vazquez had pitched in the American League before, whereas, McCarthy had never really pitched in a relief role in the majors.

 

 

 

Regarding the Vazquez vs. Garcia debate.

 

I look at Garcia and see a player who clearly doesn't have the stuff he once had, but can overcome physical limitations because he is a mentally tough player.

 

I look at Vazquez and see a player who has all the talent in the world but can't do a damn thing with it consistently because he is not a mentally tough player.

 

Obviously, I'll ALWAYS take the former, especially if I need to rely on him for big playoff games.