This is why we have an illegal immigration problem.

[EvilMonkey]

Actually illegals are receiving those benefits, you've said so before. You have stated, and I have agreed, that it is costing the US a considerable sum in aid to illegals working low income jobs. (Those with forged documents, etc.) The only illegals not receiving aid are the ones working jobs "off the books". Once we put those "on the books" and no matter who works them, it's going to cost us.

 

Perhaps this is when we cut back these programs for the working poor.

They are receiving SOME of those benefits, not all. If there were an amnesty, then they would be receiving all.

[southsider2k5]

Actually illegals are receiving those benefits, you've said so before. You have stated, and I have agreed, that it is costing the US a considerable sum in aid to illegals working low income jobs. (Those with forged documents, etc.) The only illegals not receiving aid are the ones working jobs "off the books". Once we put those "on the books" and no matter who works them, it's going to cost us.

 

Perhaps this is when we cut back these programs for the working poor.

 

Actually I don't believe that I have ever said that the illegals are receiveing benefits. I have said they are burdening social services such as hospitals and jails, but I don't think I ever said anything about government benefits. You make it sound like every single illegal is here using someone else's social security card, paying taxes, and receiving social services. This is not the truth. If it were the truth, one in twenty five person's social security numbers in the whole country has been stolen.

 

As I have stated in the past, anyone who is here committing that kind of fraud, should be deported instantly, and not allowed to return or become a citizen.

[southsider2k5]

This is a question out there for everyone because I really want to know the answer:

 

If all illegal immigrants were shipped off tomorrow how do you think your life or lifestyle will change?

 

I'll tell you what. You start sending me your paycheck to show that YOU are serious about taking care of the rest of the world's poor, and then we can talk. Its easy to be noble when you are expecting someone else to pay for it. Prove to me you practice what you preach, and support my child(ren).

[Texsox]

Actually I don't believe that I have ever said that the illegals are receiveing benefits. I have said they are burdening social services such as hospitals and jails, but I don't think I ever said anything about government benefits. You make it sound like every single illegal is here using someone else's social security card, paying taxes, and receiving social services. This is not the truth. If it were the truth, one in twenty five person's social security numbers in the whole country has been stolen.

 

As I have stated in the past, anyone who is here committing that kind of fraud, should be deported instantly, and not allowed to return or become a citizen.

 

So if they obtained a SS number they should be deported, and if they are working off the books, they should be deported *and* the company put out of business.

 

So basically we should deport them all and bring in new. How do we afford that?

[NorthSideSox72]

So if they obtained a SS number they should be deported, and if they are working off the books, they should be deported *and* the company put out of business.

 

So basically we should deport them all and bring in new. How do we afford that?

You seem to believe that because someone "has" a social security number, that they are paying all their taxes. No way that is always the case.

 

[BigSqwert]

I'll tell you what. You start sending me your paycheck to show that YOU are serious about taking care of the rest of the world's poor, and then we can talk. Its easy to be noble when you are expecting someone else to pay for it. Prove to me you practice what you preach, and support my child(ren).

I don't think I understand your response to my question. I have no stance on this issue so I'm not sure why you are placing one upon me.

[Texsox]

You seem to believe that because someone "has" a social security number, that they are paying all their taxes. No way that is always the case.

 

Not at all, I agree with SS that the lowest income jobs, do not pay income tax, in fact, the receive a profit. Plus, not every citizen with a SS number is paying all their taxes. What I am saying,

 

it's the wages that those jobs pay that determines the net effect economically in our tax balance, not the person who is working the job.

 

Anyone "on the books" making less than the poverty threshold, will receive a net surplus in taxes. We will have an increase in the tax burden when these jobs go on the books, again, it doesn't matter who is working the job.

[Texsox]

They are receiving SOME of those benefits, not all. If there were an amnesty, then they would be receiving all.

 

Again, replacing them with legal workers of any nationality, including American, will have the same result.

[Texsox]

People, this is why politicians are so slow in responding to this.

 

These low income jobs result in more benefits being paid than income to the federal budget. Same on down to state and local levels. The only way to avoid the financial drain these low paying jobs create, is to either raise the wages substantially, or hire people off the books. The government looked the other way because it was the cheaper solution. The solution is going to cost us money. No doubt about it. Putting these jobs back on the books will result in more benefits being paid and no increase in tax income. It doesn't matter who is working the job.

[BigSqwert]

It doesn't matter who is working the job.

That's why I asked my question "How will it affect you if they were all shipped off?"

 

Will your paycheck be bigger? Will cost of goods decrease? Will our taxes change?

 

I don't understand the overall benefit. Someone enlighten me.

[NorthSideSox72]

Not at all, I agree with SS that the lowest income jobs, do not pay income tax, in fact, the receive a profit. Plus, not every citizen with a SS number is paying all their taxes. What I am saying,

 

it's the wages that those jobs pay that determines the net effect economically in our tax balance, not the person who is working the job.

 

Anyone "on the books" making less than the poverty threshold, will receive a net surplus in taxes. We will have an increase in the tax burden when these jobs go on the books, again, it doesn't matter who is working the job.

As I understand it, that is only true of federal income tax. Any other taxes - Social Security, Medicare, FICA, state taxes, etc., are still paid (the state part is different state to state of course).

 

[EvilMonkey]

That's why I asked my question "How will it affect you if they were all shipped off?"

 

Will your paycheck be bigger? Will cost of goods decrease? Will our taxes change?

 

I don't understand the overall benefit. Someone enlighten me.

My town wouldn't have to hire the 8 spanish to english teachers they have in just the one school to help with all the spanish only or spanish forst students. They wouldn't have to have spanish as a requirement for the police department which would increase their applicant pool and be easier to hire good cops. The taxes we all pay cold go a lttle further towards all the pork our lovely politicians enjoy passing. Will your taxes change? hell, they almost never go down. but they may take a little longer before going up.

[southsider2k5]

I don't think I understand your response to my question. I have no stance on this issue so I'm not sure why you are placing one upon me.

 

That's all right, I kinda figured as much.

[Texsox]

That's why I asked my question "How will it affect you if they were all shipped off?"

 

Will your paycheck be bigger? Will cost of goods decrease? Will our taxes change?

 

I don't understand the overall benefit. Someone enlighten me.

 

Some businesses would suffer when their experienced workers are gone and it takes months to find and train replacements. Some unemployed would find work. Some employers will discover why those people were unemployed. You will see a price increase at businesses who relied on lower wages, restaurants, grocery stores. Your farm good will increase in cost as they struggle to find workers for a three week harvest season. There will be less Spanish spoken. It's a mixed bag.

 

But we do have to stop the flow of illegals and put together a guest worker program that works for American businesses and the workers they need.

[santo=dorf]

Schools are constantly screaming for more money and overcrowding. lets just add a few million more illegals, and hire some extra spanish speaking teachers to help the new illegal students. Traffic sucks as it is, lets just add a few million more people on the roads that can't even read the english on the street signs, or are without insurance. College costs are thru the roof, even with student loans and other programs, lets just dilute that pool even further by allowing a boatload of illegals to enjoy that small amount aid. Children cost money. You can't feed them with love, and all the nurturing in the world won't change a stinky diaper.

So the hiring of extra spanish speaking teachers means new jobs for educated people in our society. Last time I checked, America has millions of english readers who don't follow stop signs. Traffic signs are also made in colors and different shapes so it would be possible for an illiterate person to drive safely on the road.

The higher flow of traffic results in a demand for more educated engineers, foremen, and construction workers (which some illegals currently work as.) It would also create a higher demand in the construction equipment industry creating more jobs for engineers, supervisors, and assemblers.

 

How many illegals get financial aid? Does anyone have a credible source for that? I know we've been over this before.

Edited September 6, 2007 by santo=dorf

[Texsox]

My town wouldn't have to hire the 8 spanish to english teachers they have in just the one school to help with all the spanish only or spanish forst students. They wouldn't have to have spanish as a requirement for the police department which would increase their applicant pool and be easier to hire good cops. The taxes we all pay cold go a lttle further towards all the pork our lovely politicians enjoy passing. Will your taxes change? hell, they almost never go down. but they may take a little longer before going up.

 

What town has a requirement to speak Spanish to be a cop? They don't even do that here on the border.

[Middle Buffalo]

I like how so many people only point to the negatives of illegal immigrants, and how they seem to believe that there would be little impact in removing them from our economy. As has been pointed out, many illegals have valid SS numbers. It may not be theirs, but they are employed, and they do, in fact, pay into SS and the other taxes that we all pay. Unfortunately for them, they won't see the benefits when the time comes to draw the money out. For those illegals who work "off the books," how is it any different from the countless Americans who do the same? Or do American citizens honestly report all of their income to the government? I think we all know people who do "side jobs" for cash.

 

Illegals buy goods (cars, gas, clothing, food, etc) here in the US for personal consumption. Remove them, and how do some of these smaller businesses survive. Illegals rent properties (houses and apts). Remove them, and how do landlords survive? Why should US business owners pay the price because the government failed to secure the borders and control the flow of immigration?

 

Also, it's a bit short-sighted to point out that native Spanish speakers place a strain on the education system because we have to hire teachers to teach them How do we know they are illegal? Many illegals have children born here in the US, and according to the laws of our land, these children are US citizens. They have valid birth certificates and social security numbers. Do we deny these legal US citizens their Constitutional rights?

 

Sure illegals in some ways place a strain on the economy, healthcare, and educational systems, but they also create value. I don't think solutions like massive deportation or building a wall are viable options. In fact, if we do build a wall, it's only as effective as the people we entrust with the job of guarding who comes and goes - and it's a little naive to think that guards can't be bought off by coyotes. It happens every day. Not everyone who entered this country illegally did so by wading accross a river or trekking through a desert or underground through sewer lines.

 

 

[kapkomet]

I like how so many people only point to the negatives of illegal immigrants, and how they seem to believe that there would be little impact in removing them from our economy. As has been pointed out, many illegals have valid SS numbers. It may not be theirs, but they are employed, and they do, in fact, pay into SS and the other taxes that we all pay. Unfortunately for them, they won't see the benefits when the time comes to draw the money out. For those illegals who work "off the books," how is it any different from the countless Americans who do the same? Or do American citizens honestly report all of their income to the government? I think we all know people who do "side jobs" for cash.

 

Illegals buy goods (cars, gas, clothing, food, etc) here in the US for personal consumption. Remove them, and how do some of these smaller businesses survive. Illegals rent properties (houses and apts). Remove them, and how do landlords survive? Why should US business owners pay the price because the government failed to secure the borders and control the flow of immigration?

 

Also, it's a bit short-sighted to point out that native Spanish speakers place a strain on the education system because we have to hire teachers to teach them How do we know they are illegal? Many illegals have children born here in the US, and according to the laws of our land, these children are US citizens. They have valid birth certificates and social security numbers. Do we deny these legal US citizens their Constitutional rights?

 

Sure illegals in some ways place a strain on the economy, healthcare, and educational systems, but they also create value. I don't think solutions like massive deportation or building a wall are viable options. In fact, if we do build a wall, it's only as effective as the people we entrust with the job of guarding who comes and goes - and it's a little naive to think that guards can't be bought off by coyotes. It happens every day. Not everyone who entered this country illegally did so by wading accross a river or trekking through a desert or underground through sewer lines.

And that law should change, NOW.

 

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I like how so many people only point to the negatives of illegal immigrants, and how they seem to believe that there would be little impact in removing them from our economy. As has been pointed out, many illegals have valid SS numbers. It may not be theirs, but they are employed, and they do, in fact, pay into SS and the other taxes that we all pay. Unfortunately for them, they won't see the benefits when the time comes to draw the money out. For those illegals who work "off the books," how is it any different from the countless Americans who do the same? Or do American citizens honestly report all of their income to the government? I think we all know people who do "side jobs" for cash.

 

Illegals buy goods (cars, gas, clothing, food, etc) here in the US for personal consumption. Remove them, and how do some of these smaller businesses survive. Illegals rent properties (houses and apts). Remove them, and how do landlords survive? Why should US business owners pay the price because the government failed to secure the borders and control the flow of immigration?

 

Also, it's a bit short-sighted to point out that native Spanish speakers place a strain on the education system because we have to hire teachers to teach them How do we know they are illegal? Many illegals have children born here in the US, and according to the laws of our land, these children are US citizens. They have valid birth certificates and social security numbers. Do we deny these legal US citizens their Constitutional rights?

 

Sure illegals in some ways place a strain on the economy, healthcare, and educational systems, but they also create value. I don't think solutions like massive deportation or building a wall are viable options. In fact, if we do build a wall, it's only as effective as the people we entrust with the job of guarding who comes and goes - and it's a little naive to think that guards can't be bought off by coyotes. It happens every day. Not everyone who entered this country illegally did so by wading accross a river or trekking through a desert or underground through sewer lines.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but for me, the idea is not to take those 12 million people and simply remove them from the economy. Quite the contrary - I have said over and over that the number of people allowed in legally should be dictated by those very demands you refer to. As the threshold is set, X number of people are allowed in LEGALLY. The only question remains is the ILLEGALs. I wouldn't support an all out deportation, because of the immense cost, the huge toll on our already beaten-down international image, and the very large negative short-term effect on the economy. Instead, go after businesses that hire illegals, and go hard. But by bit, as the illegals see the legals getting jobs they can't have, they will choose to get back in the queue. Also, I'd be OK with returning illegals that happened to be arrested for other incidents. If you handle it that way, you will get the effect you want, but much more smoothly.

 

[southsider2k5]

I like how so many people only point to the negatives of illegal immigrants, and how they seem to believe that there would be little impact in removing them from our economy. As has been pointed out, many illegals have valid SS numbers. It may not be theirs, but they are employed, and they do, in fact, pay into SS and the other taxes that we all pay. Unfortunately for them, they won't see the benefits when the time comes to draw the money out. For those illegals who work "off the books," how is it any different from the countless Americans who do the same? Or do American citizens honestly report all of their income to the government? I think we all know people who do "side jobs" for cash.

 

Illegals buy goods (cars, gas, clothing, food, etc) here in the US for personal consumption. Remove them, and how do some of these smaller businesses survive. Illegals rent properties (houses and apts). Remove them, and how do landlords survive? Why should US business owners pay the price because the government failed to secure the borders and control the flow of immigration?

 

Also, it's a bit short-sighted to point out that native Spanish speakers place a strain on the education system because we have to hire teachers to teach them How do we know they are illegal? Many illegals have children born here in the US, and according to the laws of our land, these children are US citizens. They have valid birth certificates and social security numbers. Do we deny these legal US citizens their Constitutional rights?

 

Sure illegals in some ways place a strain on the economy, healthcare, and educational systems, but they also create value. I don't think solutions like massive deportation or building a wall are viable options. In fact, if we do build a wall, it's only as effective as the people we entrust with the job of guarding who comes and goes - and it's a little naive to think that guards can't be bought off by coyotes. It happens every day. Not everyone who entered this country illegally did so by wading accross a river or trekking through a desert or underground through sewer lines.

 

Ah yes values.

 

The United States provides Mexico with an annual surplus of $65 billion in trade, an estimated $25 billion in remittances from Mexican citizens living and working here illegally, and at least another $25 billion generated by the illegal drug trade across our southern border.

 

For that kind of value, we should annex and collect their taxes, considering just those three things are about 10% of Mexicos entire annual GDP. Imports from Mexico alone total about $200 billion a year. So in reality we are supply Mexico with 25% of their GDP A YEAR! I think they get a little bit of value from us. To break that number down a little bit, that is every man woman and child in the US supplying almost $1000 worth of economy to Mexico. I really don't want a lecture on what we owe them.

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

 

No...THIS is why we have an illegal immigration problem....

 

If you're gonna play in Texas, you gotta have a fiddle in the band

That lead guitar is hot but not for "Lousiana Man"

So rosin up that bow for "Faded Love" and let's all dance

If you're gonna play in Texas, you gotta have a fiddle in the band

 

I remember down in Houston we were puttin' on a show

When a cowboy in the back stood up and yelled, "Cotton-Eyed Joe"!

He said, "We love what you're doin', boys don't get us wrong

There's just somethin' missin' in your song"

 

If you're gonna play in Texas, you gotta have a fiddle in the band

That lead guitar is hot but not for "Lousiana Man"

So rosin up that bow for "Faded Love" and let's all dance

If you're gonna play in Texas, you gotta have a fiddle in the band

 

So we dusted off our boots and put our cowboy hats on straight

Them Texans raised the roof when Jeff opened up his case

You say y'all all wanna two-step

You say ya wanna doe-si-doe

Well, here's your fiddlin' song before we go

 

If you're gonna play in Texas, you gotta have a fiddle in the band

That lead guitar is hot but not for "Lousiana Man"

So rosin up that bow for "Faded Love" and let's all dance

If you're gonna play in Texas, you gotta have a fiddle in the band

 

If you're gonna play in Texas, you gotta have a fiddle in the band

That lead guitar is hot but not for "Lousiana Man"

So rosin up that bow for "Faded Love" and let's all dance

If you're gonna play in Texas, you gotta have a fiddle in the band

 

Mexicans can play the fiddle like CRAZY...and they're only doing what they're told.

[Jenksismyhero]

 

I like how so many people only point to the negatives of illegal immigrants, and how they seem to believe that there would be little impact in removing them from our economy. As has been pointed out, many illegals have valid SS numbers. It may not be theirs, but they are employed, and they do, in fact, pay into SS and the other taxes that we all pay. Unfortunately for them, they won't see the benefits when the time comes to draw the money out. For those illegals who work "off the books," how is it any different from the countless Americans who do the same? Or do American citizens honestly report all of their income to the government? I think we all know people who do "side jobs" for cash.

 

lol, "valid" and "it may not be theirs" doesn't fit. I have a valid bank account. It's filled with the money that I stole from people. But hey, the account is legal! And it's a correct statement to say that SOME illegals pay taxes. SOME being the key word. Out of the roughly 12 million, my guesstimation would be less than 500,000 do. That's a whole lot of tax revenue that we're missing out on, all while most of those millions have children who get free education and free health care. And who cares that other Americans don't report their income to the government? You know what happens to them when they get caught? They go to jail. The IRS doesn't say "oh hey, you didn't report your income because you have a family and you work hard. Bah, lets forget about it." And that's some poor logic. Just because Tommy does it too doesn't make it right.

 

Illegals buy goods (cars, gas, clothing, food, etc) here in the US for personal consumption. Remove them, and how do some of these smaller businesses survive. Illegals rent properties (houses and apts). Remove them, and how do landlords survive? Why should US business owners pay the price because the government failed to secure the borders and control the flow of immigration?

 

The economy is strong enough to support a very very very small dip in the lost income from illegals. I'd bet most illegals shop at places like Wal-mart where they can consume lots of goods on the cheap. I'm guessing Wal-mart would be just fine if they lost that business.

 

Also, it's a bit short-sighted to point out that native Spanish speakers place a strain on the education system because we have to hire teachers to teach them How do we know they are illegal? Many illegals have children born here in the US, and according to the laws of our land, these children are US citizens. They have valid birth certificates and social security numbers. Do we deny these legal US citizens their Constitutional rights?

 

Agree, but that doesn't mean we should just give people amnesty. There's a process of citizenship. You shouldn't be "rewarded" the rights that go with it just because you came over and had a kid.

 

Sure illegals in some ways place a strain on the economy, healthcare, and educational systems, but they also create value. I don't think solutions like massive deportation or building a wall are viable options. In fact, if we do build a wall, it's only as effective as the people we entrust with the job of guarding who comes and goes - and it's a little naive to think that guards can't be bought off by coyotes. It happens every day. Not everyone who entered this country illegally did so by wading accross a river or trekking through a desert or underground through sewer lines.

 

I'd argue they put a bigger strain than most think, but that's because we have morons like Blago who think money grows on trees and the government (you and i, the taxpayer) should pay for everyones everything. But I agree with your last comment. The wall is a joke and massive deportation isn't a viable option either.

 

My solution: massive raids on any known illegal in the country. If they can prove they've been here, working, for more than two years, they can stay, so long as they pay every penny they owe to the system. The "fringe" illegals, those with families who might not work, or those who are here working but for less than two years, get 6 months of temporary work visas to get their paperwork in order and start the process of citizenship (all while paying back what they owe to the government). Everyone else gets kicked out and has to stand in line. In conjunction with this massive sweep, the entire immigration process is revamped. It's ridiculous that it takes someone YEARS to be granted citizenship. Put the XXX millions we want to spend on building a stupid wall and hire some add'l staff for the naturalization offices around the country. Speed that process up and half of the problem of immigration would be solved.

[Texsox]

And that law should change, NOW.

 

You are correct. We will be spitting in the face of thousands of years of precedent, but back when Jesus was walking the earth, we were not as mobile, and the stakes not as high, as today. Living here on the border, I see clearly what a difference it makes in being born in hospitals literally only a few miles apart.

[Texsox]

Jenks, far more than 500,000 are working without a SS number. Employers are more careful than that. Plus, as has been pointed out before, most of these are low paying jobs and will result in a net loss in revenue, after benefits are paid. And it doesn't matter who is earning that paycheck. We actually save money when those jobs are off the books.

 

Low paying jobs, and not specifically the people who work them, put the strain on the economy. We have so many programs to help the working poor. Health care, child care, education, etc. These are tied to income. So if we could magically convince a generation of US born and raised kids, born to US born and raised parents, that they should take these jobs, we would still have the same drain on the economy. And we would have wasted, in many cases, the tens of thousands of dollars we have invested in these kids through our public education systems.

[southsideirish71]

Thats okay. According to the deported famous illegal, its our fault.

 

Edited September 10, 2007 by southsideirish71