5-Year contracts for Pitchers

[SoxFanInDallas]

I really don't understand this reluctance for giving a pitcher a 5-year deal. Granted, there is a big risk if he does not perform. But, the same can be said about a position player.

 

Reinsdorf and Williams have two options: Sign a proven pitcher like MB to a 5 year deal (plus he is a fan favorite) rather than trading him and getting stuck with a 3-year deal and get a Gil Meche quality guy. Guys who suck get 3 year deals in this league now.

[WCSox]

I really don't understand this reluctance for giving a pitcher a 5-year deal. Granted, there is a big risk if he does not perform. But, the same can be said about a position player.

 

Reinsdorf and Williams have two options: Sign a proven pitcher like MB to a 5 year deal (plus he is a fan favorite) rather than trading him and getting stuck with a 3-year deal and get a Gil Meche quality guy. Guys who suck get 3 year deals in this league now.

 

Um, Gil Meche signed a five-year deal as well. And I'd take Vazquez over him in a second.

[SoxFanInDallas]

Um, Gil Meche signed a five-year deal as well. And I'd take Vazquez over him in a second.

 

That was my mistake. But, it supports my case more. If Gil "effin" Meche can get a 5 year deal, what is the deal with the White Sox? MB is a much better pitcher. The market warrents 5 year deals for pitchers of his quality. If KC is stupid enough to bring up Meche to that level, it's going to drive the whole market that way.

 

We can't rely on ONLY keeping pitchers during their arbitration and before years (Danks) and players other teams are trying to dump (Vazquez)

[Adam G]

Guys who suck get 3 year deals in this league now.

Mike Hampton did not and Barry Zito has not yet worked out well with their long term deals.

 

One of my old profs from law school used to do a lot of work for Reinsdorf and Einhorn back in the early 90's. Apparently their philosophy is that it's not the dollars that kill you in a contract, it's the years. If they gave Buehrle five years (which they will not, sadly), it would be an extreme exception to their rule.

[WCSox]

That was my mistake. But, it supports my case more. If Gil "effin" Meche can get a 5 year deal, what is the deal with the White Sox? MB is a much better pitcher. The market warrents 5 year deals for pitchers of his quality. If KC is stupid enough to bring up Meche to that level, it's going to drive the whole market that way.

 

We can't rely on ONLY keeping pitchers during their arbitration and before years (Danks) and players other teams are trying to dump (Vazquez)

 

If people like Gil Meche are getting 5/55 on the market, I'd much rather use KW/JR's strategy of developing our own pitchers and trading for guys that other teams are trying to unload (Garcia, Vazquez, Contreras, etc.).

[SoxFanInDallas]

Mike Hampton did not and Barry Zito has not yet worked out well with their long term deals.

 

One of my old profs from law school used to do a lot of work for Reinsdorf and Einhorn back in the early 90's. Apparently their philosophy is that it's not the dollars that kill you in a contract, it's the years. If they gave Buehrle five years (which they will not, sadly), it would be an extreme exception to their rule.

 

 

Here are a few that have worked out:

 

Roy Oswalt

Roy Halladay (He signed a 3 year extension before '06 season to give him 5 years from that signing)

 

Maybe if Mark changed his name to Roy!

[TheBigHurt]

Mark has been consistent overall and has showed us good pitching for years now. I see no reason why the White Sox organization should see signing him to a five year deal as a risk.

[SoxFanInDallas]

If people like Gil Meche are getting 5/55 on the market, I'd much rather use KW/JR's strategy of developing our own pitchers and trading for guys that other teams are trying to unload (Garcia, Vazquez, Contreras, etc.).

 

So, the sox homegrow Buehrle and Garland, and will eventually lose both. They develop those guys and when they get to their primes, cut-and-run. This is a good strategy? How many more guys didn't work out as homegrown talent. You have to hold onto the ones that do work out. I liked getting Garcia and Contreras, but Vazques is a bust. And , Garcia is already gone.

[daa84]

starting pitchers, especially those who have racked up as many IP in the past years as buerhle, tend to get injured...KW and his staff have done their research, they aren't the only ones.....the A's, twins, indians, etc. none of them are willing to sign pitchers to long term deals because quite simply the risk factor in them breaking down at some point is so great.....

 

its the same reason so many people we shocked that pedro got his deal...and look he already basically has blown an entire years salary sitting on the sidelines injured this year

 

now i know mark is younger and has had a better injury history than pedro, but i was just using that as an example...

[Gregory Pratt]

Let's stop trashing Meche. He's a quality pitcher who's overcome a lot. The Royals were foolish to sign him because it's unlikely that they'll be too competitive with him short-term, but he's a quality pitcher, and he's better than Vazquez, IMO.

 

They're similar guys. "Great stuff. Inconsistent results." Although Meche has been very good this year, which is what so many scouts were saying.

[daa84]

So, the sox homegrow Buehrle and Garland, and will eventually lose both. They develop those guys and when they get to their primes, cut-and-run. This is a good strategy? How many more guys didn't work out as homegrown talent. You have to hold onto the ones that do work out. I liked getting Garcia and Contreras, but Vazques is a bust. And , Garcia is already gone.

thats funny because vazquez was tied for 32nd in the league last year with 14 QS, only 2 behind buerhle and contreras, and 3 behind garland, and i think most people would hesitate to call a guy who has a 4.15 ERA with a 1.12 WHIP, 10th in the leauge in Ks, and is on pace to eat up 200 innings a bust......

 

look, chris young is a great young talent, but people blast vazquez way too much...beyond his fluky streak where he couldnt get through the 6th inning last year, hes been a pretty solid pitcher for the sox....not an ace, and not great, but hes been pretty valuable

[elrockinMT]

So, the sox homegrow Buehrle and Garland, and will eventually lose both. They develop those guys and when they get to their primes, cut-and-run. This is a good strategy? How many more guys didn't work out as homegrown talent. You have to hold onto the ones that do work out. I liked getting Garcia and Contreras, but Vazques is a bust. And , Garcia is already gone.

 

 

This is exactly the line I have been using in previous posts and replies. We are a team made up from others. Whether that is because of our underschieving and over rated farm ssytem or what I don't know. But we have some home grown stars and should keep them. That includes Crede

[WCSox]

So, the sox homegrow Buehrle and Garland, and will eventually lose both.

 

They've both been in our rotation for the past 7 years. What's wrong with that?

 

They develop those guys and when they get to their primes, cut-and-run. This is a good strategy?

 

It's a much better strategy than having them on the payroll for an additional 3-4 years after they break down. Do you disagree with JR's strategy of trading Blackjack and Alvarez, and letting Alex Fernandez walk? How'd they do after they left the Sox?

 

I liked getting Garcia and Contreras,

 

Me too. We won a championship with them and didn't have to mortgage our future in doing so.

 

but Vazques is a bust.

 

LOL, wrong.

 

And , Garcia is already gone.

 

And probably washed up at this point of his career. Not only did we dump the remaining $10 million on his salary, but we also got Gio Gonzalez back.

 

Let's stop trashing Meche. He's a quality pitcher who's overcome a lot. The Royals were foolish to sign him because it's unlikely that they'll be too competitive with him short-term, but he's a quality pitcher, and he's better than Vazquez, IMO.

 

I disagree...

 

Meche's career WHIP and ERA+: 1.422, 100

Vazquez's career WHIP and ERA+: 1.267, 109

[Steff]

Has there been any confirmation from either side that the deal being talked about is NOT 5 years?

[WCSox]

thats funny because vazquez was tied for 32nd in the league last year with 14 QS, only 2 behind buerhle and contreras, and 3 behind garland, and i think most people would hesitate to call a guy who has a 4.15 ERA with a 1.12 WHIP, 10th in the leauge in Ks, and is on pace to eat up 200 innings a bust......

 

Even his 4.84 ERA still ranked 31st in the AL last year. Considernig that there are 14 teams in the league, a simplistic analysis would suggest that Vazquez was arguably a high-tier #3 starter then. I consider him more of a low-tier #3 (or maybe high-tier #4 in a bad year). Either way, he's a pretty decent pitcher.

 

 

look, chris young is a great young talent, but people blast vazquez way too much...beyond his fluky streak where he couldnt get through the 6th inning last year, hes been a pretty solid pitcher for the sox....not an ace, and not great, but hes been pretty valuable

 

[Kalapse]

Here are a few that have worked out:

 

Roy Oswalt

Roy Halladay (He signed a 3 year extension before '06 season to give him 5 years from that signing)

 

Maybe if Mark changed his name to Roy!

How can you say these have worked out when Halladay signed that extension a year and a half ago? He hasn't even made a single start under the extension? Oswalt signed his deal before the '07 season started, so it's "worked out" for a grand total of 17 starts now. You're going to have to do a whole lot better than that, you need to find examples that are 4-5 years into the deal in order for it to serve as some sort of precedent.

[Gregory Pratt]

Meche's career WHIP and ERA+: 1.422, 100

Vazquez's career WHIP and ERA+: 1.267, 109

 

Meche's past involves injuries and flukey nonsense. From here on out, he'll be much better than Vazquez.

[Gene Honda Civic]

How can you say these have worked out when Halladay signed that extension a year and a half ago? He hasn't even made a single start under the extension? Oswalt signed his deal before the '07 season started, so it's "worked out" for a grand total of 17 starts now. You're going to have to do a whole lot better than that, you need to find examples that are 4-5 years into the deal in order for it to serve as some sort of precedent.

Off the top of my head I can name the following guys on the bad side of the ledger:

Darren Driefort

Bartolo Colon (to whom we offered something like 4/50)

Perdo Martinez

Jason Schmidt

Jeret Wright 3-years

Carl Pavano 3-years

AJ Burnett

Sindey Ponson (wasn't that a 4-year deal that the O's were able to void after a year?)

Kevin Brown

Chan Ho Park

Pedro Martinez (who boston wouldn't give a 4th year, and has been toast since last season)

Mike Mussina's second NY contract

 

On the good side of the ledger:

Mike Mussina's first NY contract

Pedro's Boston contract, even though he still hit the DL, he was the best pitcher in baseball for much of the contract.

I'm struggling to come up with non-hall of fame examples here.

[WCSox]

Meche's past involves injuries and flukey nonsense. From here on out, he'll be much better than Vazquez.

 

LOL, I forgot to add that Vazquez is less injury-prone. Thanks.

[witesoxfan]

thats funny because vazquez was tied for 32nd in the league last year with 14 QS, only 2 behind buerhle and contreras, and 3 behind garland, and i think most people would hesitate to call a guy who has a 4.15 ERA with a 1.12 WHIP, 10th in the leauge in Ks, and is on pace to eat up 200 innings a bust......

 

look, chris young is a great young talent, but people blast vazquez way too much...beyond his fluky streak where he couldnt get through the 6th inning last year, hes been a pretty solid pitcher for the sox....not an ace, and not great, but hes been pretty valuable

 

Don't you know that it was Javy Vazquez who traded Chris Young for himself though?

[CanOfCorn]

First of all, Garland was NOT homegrown. Brought in from the Cubs for Matt Karchner. Only Crede, Fields, Andy Gonzalez, Boone Logan and Buehrle are home grown talents on the current roster. And I don't see Gonzalez or Crede staying past next year.

 

Second, don't forget Mike Hampton's contract. Yikes.

[fathom]

Has there been any confirmation from either side that the deal being talked about is NOT 5 years?

 

Nope, and with that in mind, I believe Buerhle's agent thinks he can get him a 7 year deal. Something that no one is talking about is that if the Sox don't bring back Buehrle and create more salary space by getting rid of Contreras and/or Garland, they could very well be players for Zambrano this offseason.

[Kalapse]

Off the top of my head I can name the following guys on the bad side of the ledger:

Darren Driefort

Bartolo Colon (to whom we offered something like 4/50)

Perdo Martinez

Jason Schmidt

Jeret Wright 3-years

Carl Pavano 3-years

AJ Burnett

Sindey Ponson (wasn't that a 4-year deal that the O's were able to void after a year?)

Kevin Brown

Chan Ho Park

Pedro Martinez (who boston wouldn't give a 4th year, and has been toast since last season)

Mike Mussina's second NY contract

Not a starting pitcher but BJ Ryan was also given a 5 year contract and is going to miss the entire second season of the deal.

 

Mike Hampton was given an 8 year $121M deal by the Rockies in 2001, he's made a grand total of 12 starts since the beginning of the 2005 season and is expected to miss all of 2007 just as he did in 2006.

[SoxFanInDallas]

First of all, Garland was NOT homegrown. Brought in from the Cubs for Matt Karchner.

Second, don't forget Mike Hampton's contract. Yikes.

If you want to get technical. But if a guy comes in a trade and spends more time in that minor league org than the original, it really is the same thing. He spent 1.5 seasons with Cubs in the minors and spent 2.5 with the White Sox.

 

picky picky

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Nope, and with that in mind, I believe Buerhle's agent thinks he can get him a 7 year deal. Something that no one is talking about is that if the Sox don't bring back Buehrle and create more salary space by getting rid of Contreras and/or Garland, they could very well be players for Zambrano this offseason.

 

Fathom, would you pay Zambrano more and/or give more years than Buehrle? Just curious what you think. I wouldn't -- better stuff, but too unstable, and I think he's prone to injury.