Well, I think it's pretty obvious Shines didn't get along with somebody.

 

 

Everybody.

 

 

And Raines was not fired.

Stick Cora back at third and hire a competent bench coach.

 

 

I would dump Cora also.

Well, I think it's pretty obvious Shines didn't get along with somebody.

An unfortunate fall guy. Did nothing to deserve this.

 

Just shifting the deck chairs....

Everybody.

And Raines was not fired.

Ozzie was quoted as saying he had to fire Raines, a friend of his because he wasn't getting the job done.

 

From the Sun-Times in June

 

 

''I had to fire one of my friends, one of my coaches [Tim Raines], because he [wasn't] doing the job. If something happens to me this year, next year, 20 years after, I will feel the same way about Kenny and Jerry. I understand his point.''

Edited October 5, 200718 yr by Dick Allen

Man Soo Lee was the man, bring him back.

It's really amazing, isn't it? It's going to be scary going on rotoworld every morning during the offseason looking at the possible deals were involved with. I can already picture it now: Garland and DLS for Tejada.

 

The reality will be worse -- Garland for 2 relievers (one proven!) and Eckstein at short for 3 years at $7Mper.

Some of these knee jerk reactions are comical, especially being afraid of looking at Rotoworld.

 

First of all who here really knows if Razor was good at his job or not? That would be no one.

 

Second, did anyone recall Guillen saying specifically that if any of his coaches were not to return in 2008, it wouldn't be the coaches fault, it would be because they want a different skill set. He said that, exactly.

 

Third, Razor's objective is to manage. With Ozzie's extension, that won't happen here.

 

Further, it might be a good idea to wait and see what skillset strength the new 3B coach has. The 3B coach does a lot more than wave runners around. Their job can include coaching infielders, coaching baserunners and basestealing, coaching OF, working with advance scouting information, looking into the opposing dugout for signs and interpreting them (this is not always the bench coach doing this, the 3B coach is closer and has a better angle).

 

Just a guess on my part, but I think the replacement 3B coach will have a stronger knowledge of the American League, will have expertise in the baserunning aspect of things, and/or will possess a skill set not necessarily represented on the current staff.

 

Guillen has control over coaches but people are sadly mistaken if they think Guillen can just go ahead and hire a buddy just because he's a Guillen crony.

Edited October 6, 200718 yr by 29andPoplar

With some of the things I've heard about Shines and his relationship with members of the organization, I wonder why they even promoted him this past offseason. And I don't think many of us really care that our 3rd base coach got let go. It's more that members of the coaching staff who have underachieved (players in the area they specialize) continue to get a free pass for some reason. There's honestly no reason Greg Walker still has a job.

Man Soo Lee was the man, bring him back.

 

Pretty sure he retired and went back to Korea. Anyone?

It appears Razor was released due to Ozzie wanting a third base coach who is better suited to coaching fundamentals and base running. Sounds fine to me... What's Rickey Henderson doing these days?

It appears Razor was released due to Ozzie wanting a third base coach who is better suited to coaching fundamentals and base running. Sounds fine to me... What's Rickey Henderson doing these days?

Probably referring to himself in the third person.

With some of the things I've heard about Shines and his relationship with members of the organization, I wonder why they even promoted him this past offseason. And I don't think many of us really care that our 3rd base coach got let go. It's more that members of the coaching staff who have underachieved (players in the area they specialize) continue to get a free pass for some reason. There's honestly no reason Greg Walker still has a job.

 

Speaking just for myself, I honestly wish you'd stop with the half speak and innuendo. If there are "things" you've heard about Shines and his relationships with members of the organization, speak up about it. When you post shadowy innuendo type stuff, it leads other people on this site to reach conclusions that aren't necessarily accurate. I don't know what the big secret is anyways.

 

For the record, what I have heard is nothing but respect for Razor from other coaches, specifically Juan Nieves (minor league pitching guy) and a couple others, and from young players who absolutely loved playing for him.

 

However I will be the first to say I have no clue what type of job he did as a 3B coach other than I thought he was somewhat better than Cora in terms of sending/not sending runners.

 

It's my opinion that Guillen was telling the truth, i.e. if he let one of his coaches go, it would not be because it's the coaches fault. It will be because they feel they need a different skill set at that coaching spot. Not unusual this would happen.

 

As for Greg Walker, that topic has been debated endlessly here and the topic du jour is Shines and Art K. As for Art, he is into his 60's now and I believe the eye problems have contributed to him not wanting to face the grind of being around the ballpark, travel, and so on.

 

Razor, frankly, has gone about as far as he could in the Sox organization anyways. They only signed him for one year, which leads me to believe he has other aspirations and the Sox don't make a habit of blocking guys who want bigger opportunities. Whether a legit opportunity will arise for Razor, who knows.

Did nothing to deserve this.

 

How could you possibly know that? As a third base coach, I think he did a good job. But Ozzie says he wants more from that job, so he's going with someone else. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

I think he did a good job as 3rd base coach, but it seemed like he didn't get along with people, he probably wanted to manage, as long as you don't bring back Cora, not that hard a job, so not as big a deal to me

 

 

Bring back Bruce Kimm!

It appears Razor was released due to Ozzie wanting a third base coach who is better suited to coaching fundamentals and base running. Sounds fine to me... What's Rickey Henderson doing these days?

 

Playing cards in the Mets clubhouse and being ripped to shreds by NY media, being blamed for the downfall of Jose Reyes

Speaking just for myself, I honestly wish you'd stop with the half speak and innuendo. If there are "things" you've heard about Shines and his relationships with members of the organization, speak up about it. When you post shadowy innuendo type stuff, it leads other people on this site to reach conclusions that aren't necessarily accurate. I don't know what the big secret is anyways.

 

I'm going off of what Steff has said, as well as some differences of opinions that Razor had with Ozzie last season. I've been a huge supporter of Razor ever since the Sean Tracey incident, and it's too bad he's leaving the organization.

Edited October 6, 200718 yr by fathom

as well as some differences of opinions that Razor had with Ozzie last season.

 

What were those?

 

They signed Razor to a one year contract. In and of itself that should tell you something but I will spell it out. In addition to thinking they may have needed a slightly different skill set, (quite possibly from a guy who wasn't available last winter but will be this winter?) they know Razor wants to manage. They promoted this guy because he did a good job in the minors, his team was a winner. In addition a 3B coaching job gives a guy more visibility.

 

Lest anyone think the White Sox org. doesn't like Razor Shines, they drafted his son this year as a sign of respect and offered the son a contract, which he turned down to go to college.

 

Technically they are not offering him a new contract since he was only on a one year deal. Saying he was fired is a little strong but so be it. I think they are cutting him loose so he can pursue something he really wants to pursue, in addition to having their eye on someone they've wanted as a longer term fit.

What were those?

 

They signed Razor to a one year contract. In and of itself that should tell you something but I will spell it out. In addition to thinking they may have needed a slightly different skill set, (quite possibly from a guy who wasn't available last winter but will be this winter?) they know Razor wants to manage. They promoted this guy because he did a good job in the minors, his team was a winner. In addition a 3B coaching job gives a guy more visibility.

 

Lest anyone think the White Sox org. doesn't like Razor Shines, they drafted his son this year as a sign of respect and offered the son a contract, which he turned down to go to college.

 

Technically they are not offering him a new contract since he was only on a one year deal. Saying he was fired is a little strong but so be it. I think they are cutting him loose so he can pursue something he really wants to pursue, in addition to having their eye on someone they've wanted as a longer term fit.

 

God forbid we let some common sense and actual logic get in the way of things...

 

It's nice to know that sometimes we don't all prefer the "trash the organization route."

What were those?

 

I've been telling people about this story for over a year now, but Razor stuck his neck out for Tracey last year after the beanball incident. Like you mentioned, the young guys from the minor leagues love Razor. However, as we've seen, Ozzie's relationship with those guys hasn't always been picture perfect. Right there, you get a source of some tension that was building up last year. Hopefully, Razor got along good with all the coaches this year, but Steff doesn't seem to think so. I didn't hear of any particular issues with Razor this season. I hope Razor goes on to get another job, and continues to life the healthy lifestyle he did this year.

Edited October 6, 200718 yr by fathom

I've been telling people about this story for over a year now, but Razor stuck his neck out for Tracey last year after the beanball incident. Like you mentioned, the young guys from the minor leagues love Razor. However, as we've seen, Ozzie's relationship with those guys hasn't always been picture perfect. Right there, you get a source of some tension that was building up last year. Hopefully, Razor got along good with all the coaches this year, but Steff doesn't seem to think so. I didn't hear of any particular issues with Razor this season. I hope Razor goes on to get another job, and continues to life the healthy lifestyle he did this year.

 

If that were the case, and the reason he was not brought back, I have a difficult time believing he would have been brought up to the big club in the first place...

If that were the case, and the reason he was not brought back, I have a difficult time believing he would have been brought up to the big club in the first place...

 

I don't think it was the reason he wasn't brought back. I honestly don't care who coaches 3rd base, as long as they do a solid job.

I and others here have heard stories of Shines NOT being liked by the minor league guys and the young players. fathom has heard the opposite, starting with Sean Tracey. I don't know -- I don't have sympathy for Tracey, for one, and I don't care if Shines got along with our minor leaguers.

Maybe it had something to do with the fact that all of Shines' players from Charlotte came up and sucked ass?

 

I've been telling people about this story for over a year now, but Razor stuck his neck out for Tracey last year after the beanball incident. Like you mentioned, the young guys from the minor leagues love Razor. However, as we've seen, Ozzie's relationship with those guys hasn't always been picture perfect. Right there, you get a source of some tension that was building up last year. Hopefully, Razor got along good with all the coaches this year, but Steff doesn't seem to think so. I didn't hear of any particular issues with Razor this season. I hope Razor goes on to get another job, and continues to life the healthy lifestyle he did this year.

 

Wait, so you are saying:

 

Ozzie yelled at Tracey, Tracey got sent down, Razor pitched Tracey in the minors and got him back on track,

 

and that equals,

 

Ozzie and Razor had tension between them?

I and others here have heard stories of Shines NOT being liked by the minor league guys and the young players.

 

What stories are those?